Play for Pay

NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
14,055
12,866
113
You guys are all still here.

I do trail and obstacle course races. Whenever one of the major brands or races makes a decision there are obviously some "That's it. I'm done with them. Not giving them another dollar to company X".

Recently saw a funny response: "This isn't an airport. No need to announce your departure."

How many people have actually followed through on their "If players get paid, then I'm done! I'm not donating a dollar to professional players".
NIL has been around for 8 months (and rumored even longer).

Our (hopefully) star QB announced a huge NIL agreement.
Our starting PG was very publicly involved with getting NIL passed.
People sure like to bring it up to bash him - but they are the hypocritical ones who are still around despite all their bluster.

As you said - everyone is still here. How many people have actually abandoned college sports because they aren't "amateur" anymore.
 
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NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
14,055
12,866
113
# of Div 1-A football programs: 130 (?)
# of Div 1 basketball programs: 350(?)

How many are receiving over $50m in conference payouts annually?
Is Rutgers in the 1%? No and they never will be.
But they are far from a "small-market" team in college sports.
That's just making excuses.

If we are "small-market" then what is UConn or Temple or Seton Hall?
How many programs would switch positions with Rutgers immediately?
Didn't Rutgers just use the transfer portal to revamp their OL with transfers from non P-5 and P-5 teams?
 
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bac2therac

Hall of Famer
Jul 30, 2001
247,547
177,260
113
Seton Hall will likely do what it takes to pay their players..remember they do not have football...ditto for UConn

Temple is irrelevant in both sports
 

RUMassAlum

Sophomore
Jun 7, 2005
390
132
0
I mentioned in an emotionally charged Pike thread, the trend for P-5 D-1 difference making players coming to our program will be money.
Basketball is a revenue sport, 6 and 7 digit numbers are being tossed around.

I advocated for the right to own your own name and likeness….Geo was 100 percent spot on….play for pay was not part of the equation.
How dumb was it to not see portal plus play for pay equals professional sports free agency?

We are the equivalent of a “small market team” in professional sports,

Pike’s ability to run an offense, prevent transfers and recruit is irrelevant in the current scheme of things in college sports.

The great spirit and tradition of college sports is gone, getting chills listening to fight songs and Alma Maters means nothing anymore.

P-5 equals professional sports, we can’t compete.
Agree with you zappaa. The signposts are all there and have been building for a long time. The escalating consolidation of P-5 conferences into a kind of college sports monopoly, with the prevailing ethic being "you're nobody unless you are in one of the Big Five." The explosion of TV game coverage into very big business, first with the establishment of all-sports networks on cable TV, then with the proliferation of online streaming. The huge impact of the liberalized transfer portal rules. The fading role of the NCAA, which for all of its justly-due criticisms still represented the amateur past. The salaries of big name college coaches that far exceed those of the university president. The rapidly diminishing likelihood that top notch players will stay in school long enough to graduate. NIL (which I am totally for) is another indicator as well, but at least one that favors the players. But there are even indirect trends that point to a changing ethos in college sports, such as the soaring popularity of sports betting on local and national sports news and talk TV and radio and on dedicated websites. While I do not yet agree 100% with you that recruiting is already completely irrelevant, your basic premise is correct: that major P-5 sports are becoming corporatized and monetized and that Rutgers simply cannot compete. We are the equivalent of a small market team.






 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
0
I don’t see chop for change being political honestly.
wellll.. maybe merely as a "we're sensitive to the message" kinda thing. Not really political.. more like accommodation, imo.

BTW.. totally agree with OP. But OP said "small market team"... could very well become "farm team"... and hopefully AAA. We'll see what happens with TV contracts and what programs get TV time. IF.. if we see conferences lose the ability to dictate that every team will get every game on TV in future contracts.. look out.
 
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Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
As you said - everyone is still here. How many people have actually abandoned college sports because they aren't "amateur" anymore.
It will happen. If we go 12-19 next year and it is crystal clear that we cant compete because $ I will be very confident I won't renew for 2023-24
 

Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
wellll.. maybe merely as a "we're sensitive to the message" kinda thing. Not really political.. more like accommodation, imo.

BTW.. totally agree with OP. But OP said "small market team"... could very well become "farm team"... and hopefully AAA. We'll see what happens with TV contracts and what programs get TV time. IF.. if we see conferences lose the ability to dictate that every team will get every game on TV in future contracts.. look out.
This is my worry.....if conference revenues decline it is time to reduce the denominator.
 

CERU00

All-Conference
Feb 10, 2005
3,626
1,677
0
Nice name calling Plum!
You can consider me a “dope” buddy.
I have no interest in college sports play for pay free Agency.
I have no interest in supporting it.
As for political statements. I use action not words
You don't have him on ignore yet?
 

NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
14,055
12,866
113
It will happen. If we go 12-19 next year and it is crystal clear that we cant compete because $ I will be very confident I won't renew for 2023-24

How can you be so sure it would be "because of $" we can't compete?
Was it because of $ that Eddie Jordan went 12-21, 10-22 and 7-25?
Or just bad coaching?

Listen, if anyone wants to stop following a team then so be it. Not my problem.
And whatever "justification" you want to make up for it - you do it.
 

NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
14,055
12,866
113
wellll.. maybe merely as a "we're sensitive to the message" kinda thing. Not really political.. more like accommodation, imo.

BTW.. totally agree with OP. But OP said "small market team"... could very well become "farm team"... and hopefully AAA. We'll see what happens with TV contracts and what programs get TV time. IF.. if we see conferences lose the ability to dictate that every team will get every game on TV in future contracts.. look out.

So now the Big Ten is going to make TV contracts that don't pay out evenly to all conference teams?
Talk about overreaction.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
0
So now the Big Ten is going to make TV contracts that don't pay out evenly to all conference teams?
Talk about overreaction.
No one said PAY OUT would change... here's the thing that I see as "possible"..

The gap between haves vs have-nots gets bigger.. even within a conference... and then between conferences as well. The SEC will pay big money to athletes.. we all know that. SOME Big Ten teams can match... others cannot.

When it comes to TV contracts.. the bidding networks will want teams with national appeal.. to appear as often as possible. As the gap WITHIN a conference of top teams to bottom teams get bigger, the networks MAY want more control over what teams they feature how often in their broadcast schedules.

They had that with the BIg East football, right? As they need to pay more for the top teams and conferences and as costs rise for teams in those conferences, the leverage moves to the networks and advertisers to provide the money needed to even have athletics programs bidding for athletes' talents.

The networks will use that to get concessions.. to get more control. ANd the conference members, despite wanting fair access to TV coverage.. despite NEEDING that access.. may fold and give up more control to the TV networks to keep the money coming in.

In the long run, less TV coverage will hurt the "small market" teams.

At least that is what I am suggesting COULD happen... and if we see stories suggesting such a control shift in future TV contracts, I think it will be a bad sign.
 
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Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
How can you be so sure it would be "because of $" we can't compete?
Was it because of $ that Eddie Jordan went 12-21, 10-22 and 7-25?
Or just bad coaching?

Listen, if anyone wants to stop following a team then so be it. Not my problem.
And whatever "justification" you want to make up for it - you do it.
bad coaching. that one is easy.

I am a Pirates fan and always have been. I rooted for the Yankees too. I know hate the Yankees and root strongly against them. I was turned off by the free agent signings. Jason Giambi put me over the edge.

It is/was a personal decision. I think people can respect that. For me the combination of a changing game and the in the face paying of players and combining RU not being competitive I would probably be out. I am sure I won't be alone.
 
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Greene Rice FIG

Heisman
Dec 30, 2005
40,437
23,613
0
I think the more likely scenario is conference members fighting over the revenue. This is 3+ years in the future.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
0
I think the more likely scenario is conference members fighting over the revenue. This is 3+ years in the future.
yeah.. that happens later with networks supporting the idea of superconferences with fewer members. Think of how much advertising dollars the NFL pulls in with only 32 teams... what is it, 3-4 networks feed from that league?

Yes.. I can see a time when the big-name college teams wonder why their "pull" is rewarding the small-name teams so much. I do think it will take a couple steps to get there.
 
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NickRU714

Heisman
Aug 18, 2009
14,055
12,866
113
No one said PAY OUT would change... here's the thing that I see as "possible"..

The gap between haves vs have-nots gets bigger.. even within a conference... and then between conferences as well. The SEC will pay big money to athletes.. we all know that. SOME Big Ten teams can match... others cannot.

When it comes to TV contracts.. the bidding networks will want teams with national appeal.. to appear as often as possible. As the gap WITHIN a conference of top teams to bottom teams get bigger, the networks MAY want more control over what teams they feature how often in their broadcast schedules.

They had that with the BIg East football, right? As they need to pay more for the top teams and conferences and as costs rise for teams in those conferences, the leverage moves to the networks and advertisers to provide the money needed to even have athletics programs bidding for athletes' talents.

The networks will use that to get concessions.. to get more control. ANd the conference members, despite wanting fair access to TV coverage.. despite NEEDING that access.. may fold and give up more control to the TV networks to keep the money coming in.

In the long run, less TV coverage will hurt the "small market" teams.

At least that is what I am suggesting COULD happen... and if we see stories suggesting such a control shift in future TV contracts, I think it will be a bad sign.

That would never happen.
Unless you are predicting all these networks are going to start airing LESS games overall and paying less money to the conference.

TV Networks: We are only going to air OSU, MU, MSU and Wisconsin. No one else.

Conference: Ummm that’s only like 7 games a year. What about the other games like when they play Rutgers?

TV Networks: Okay fine we will air those games too then but that’s it!

Conference: So you are going to pay us the same money but only air 4 games a week? What will you use to fill all that other empty space?
Are you going to pay more money to broadcast something else?

TV Networks: We’ll get back to you.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
0
That would never happen.
Unless you are predicting all these networks are going to start airing LESS games overall and paying less money to the conference.

TV Networks: We are only going to air OSU, MU, MSU and Wisconsin. No one else.

Conference: Ummm that’s only like 7 games a year. What about the other games like when they play Rutgers?

TV Networks: Okay fine we will air those games too then but that’s it!

Conference: So you are going to pay us the same money but only air 4 games a week? What will you use to fill all that other empty space?
Are you going to pay more money to broadcast something else?

TV Networks: We’ll get back to you.
That's nuts... your 4 teams are not like the 4 they would choose.. PSU would be in there for sure.. but the point is those teams each play 12 games, right? Only some are against each other.

But I'll consider your objection.

ESPN/ABC have likely helped the SEC expand with Texas and Oklahoma. They will have, what, prime slots on ABC and then ESPN with other game son ESPN2, ESPNU, the SEC Network, the Longhorn Network (and lets assume the ACC network as a s separate issue).

Will ESPN/ABC need to bid for other conferences TV rights at all?

The SEC will have 16 teams and 8 games a week in conference play and 12+ in OOC play with bye weeks. Can they show 3 games per channel by balancing conference and OOC play? 6 channels with 3 game start times in 18 games. That's what they need. If they have 4 conference games (using 8 teams) and 8 non-conference games that gives them 12 (edit: I forgot that attractive ooc games will be home and homes.. but SEC rarely does that.. they will play neutral site or home games only OOC) . I think maybe they fill the schedule with cheaper games from cheaper conference rights deals.

They would need to bid so high to get a piece of Big Ten rights, PAC 12 rights, and Big XII rights will be in a middling property.. not low-level like ConfUSA or Mountain West but will not require laying out big money to fluff out their schedule of games.

And ESPN/ABC is the place that airs the most games. If they can be satisfied without bidding high for any Big Ten or PAC games.. the TV contract money paid would shrink.. relatively speaking.. that is, not grow as it has been.

Fox FoxSports airs fewer games... BTN is owned by the Big Ten and FoxSports. They also bid on PAC and Big XII games.

AS ESPN/ABC invests heavily in the SEC, I see less competition for Big Ten TV rights... and more control granted to those who do bid for such rights. Of course, BTN could still air every game of every team.. if they adjust the start times and days of the week more and more... but what does that do to ad revenues?

For that matter, this whole supply chain thing could result in fewer ad dollars being out there for TV rights overall... it is a whole new world out there. Will TV deals take a hit? It is anyone's guess.. but costs to run programs are rising... will revenues match or will concessions be made?

A lot goes into what games a TV network airs.. what it wants to air, what it must air by contract, etc. I am suggesting that networks may get the upper hand in such negotiations and how will that affect the non-name-brand teams in conferences? Will they be kicking off at 11, aired in SD on some backup cable channel? Will they ever appear in a primetime Saturday broadcast?

Do some googling.. find stories like this one..

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09...r-the-networks-as-it-is-frustrating-for-fans/
 
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BillyC80

Heisman
Oct 23, 2006
17,085
15,473
72
I mentioned in an emotionally charged Pike thread, the trend for P-5 D-1 difference making players coming to our program will be money.
Basketball is a revenue sport, 6 and 7 digit numbers are being tossed around.

I advocated for the right to own your own name and likeness….Geo was 100 percent spot on….play for pay was not part of the equation.
How dumb was it to not see portal plus play for pay equals professional sports free agency?

We are the equivalent of a “small market team” in professional sports,

Pike’s ability to run an offense, prevent transfers and recruit is irrelevant in the current scheme of things in college sports.

The great spirit and tradition of college sports is gone, getting chills listening to fight songs and Alma Maters means nothing anymore.

P-5 equals professional sports, we can’t compete.
In 5-7 years the fans, including us message board fanatics, will adjust to the new normal, and college basketball will be like minor league baseball, except you’ll be rooting for a team that’s affiliated with a college.

The Power conferences will be Triple-A, the non-power conferences will be Double-A, and the JuCos will be A-ball.
 

zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
74,993
91,784
103
In 5-7 years the fans, including us message board fanatics, will adjust to the new normal, and college basketball will be like minor league baseball, except you’ll be rooting for a team that’s affiliated with a college.

The Power conferences will be Triple-A, the non-power conferences will be Double-A, and the JuCos will be A-ball.
No interest
 
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BillyC80

Heisman
Oct 23, 2006
17,085
15,473
72
No interest
Maybe over the next 5-7 years you’ll find yourself rooting for Rutgers basketball and football and the fanaticism will still be there after a period of adjustment.

As you can see, I’m trying to talk myself into it.
 
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zappaa

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
74,993
91,784
103
Maybe over the next 5-7 years you’ll find yourself rooting for Rutgers basketball and football and the fanaticism will still be there after a period of adjustment.

As you can see, I’m trying to talk myself into it.
I don’t think we’re destined for the final four in football anytime soon.
But I already know if we earned a birth (not like this last one) in a significant bowl.
I wouldn’t be able to handle our best players opting out.
Perhaps part of paying players will come with the stipulation you must play in the post season….😊
I mean if I’m in investor because I’m fanatic about our winning, wouldn’t it be self defeating to pay a kid to opt out
 

The RUT

Heisman
Oct 30, 2011
35,714
19,789
61
Nil or portal - players need to choose one.one has to go
NCAA rule player transfers have to sit out a year and can’t sign a NIL deal unless they’re eligible to play (medical injuries excluded).

Problem solved.
 

RUPete

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
26,841
16,113
0
Who’s stepping away ? Are these same dopes that said they would step away if rutgers football ever got political ? Then schiano and team make huge political
Statement and put “chop for change” on gameday attire. Those people are still here !
Much different discussion. There's a big difference between being turned off by what is perceived as a political statement vs. just not having the $$$ to remain competitive. Fans may walk away because it is seen as a lost cause.