OT: Valeant

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
Still long. Bought below $20 as mentioned above and have an average price of $21. Concerned they haven't sold any core or non-core assets. If they can cut that debt down by 30-50%, this will go above $50. So, still cautious but holding.

Starting to build a short in TSLA above $220.
 
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patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
2,445
78
I'm accumulating Valiant shares. I understand the risks but think it generates too much cash, has identifiable areas of the business that can be made more profitable and have real assets worth real money that they can sell to pay down debt, which makes bankruptcy unlikely. The big question is what are the assets they are going to sell, worth? The sooner they start establishing that by actually selling something, the sooner the market will better understand the potential market for all their assets and what the sum may be worth. In short, I think the market is undervaluing the sum of their assets, that there is a market for what they are selling and that the price will be higher than what's priced in.

Beyond that, I know very little about the company so don't ask me why I think what I think. It's just a feel for the situation and what I'm feeling is overdone negativity with a big bounce looming on positive news.

Just classic.
 

patk89

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Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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Been 100% right in this stock so far. Just saying.

I wish I were as smart ("lucky") as you. Whether you realize it or not, you are not investing. Just like those grandfathers buying tech in the late 90's when they had no idea what they produced. Time tends to sort these things out. I'd advise you to back away.
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
I wish I were as smart ("lucky") as you. Whether you realize it or not, you are not investing. Just like those grandfathers buying tech in the late 90's when they had no idea what they produced. Time tends to sort these things out. I'd advise you to back away.
Valeant produces $10 billion plus in revenue a year. Hardly a 90's tech company.
 

patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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Valeant produces $10 billion plus in revenue a year. Hardly a 90's tech company.

As you stated, you are an expert on this company. By the way, Lucent and most 90's tech companies reported huge revenues you knob. Then they didn't.
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
As you stated, you are an expert on this company. By the way, Lucent and most 90's tech companies reported huge revenues you knob. Then they didn't.

Oh yeah, when people think about imploding 90's tech companies, Lucent the phone company is right there at the top of the list. Seriously, that's the best you could come up with to defend your ridiculous analogy? I'm the knob? Don't think so. Everything I've written in this post has been dead on while I still have no idea what you're on about. If you don't like Valeant, then short it and STFU already.
 

czxqa

All-American
Oct 31, 2008
8,634
6,873
113
Good stuff. On the cost offset argument, I definitely hear that a lot. Every healthcare company makes the case that 'if everyone used our product, the total cost of care would be lower'. Sometimes it is true, but mostly it is self-serving. For example, if everyone took a diagnostic test to screen for xyz, and the cost to treat xyz if caught early is $1,000 vs. $20,000 if it isn't caught early...well you could argue that the test costing $18,000 saves money. Of course the catch is if 1 in every 1,000 people has xyz and they all take the test, you end up spending 1,000 x $18,000 = $18,000,000 to catch one case of xyz and save money on that one patient.

For Gilead and their Hepatitis C drug that has garnered a ton of negative attention, the reality is that it is a new and much better standard of care, it is less expensive than alternative treatments, it is highly efficacious (over 95%), and the costs highlighted aren't even the costs. Initially it was $84,000 list price for a 12 week treatment cycle...$1,000 per day...but the price negotiated with insurers is actually much less than that and now they can treat earlier/less severe cases for much shorter treatment cycles (6-8 weeks). In that case, the drug is actually reasonable value.

Then you get to Jublia, which cures ~15% of toe-nail fungus cases...not a dissimilar percentage vs. Vicks Vapo-Rub. Yet Valeant charges ~$8,000 for a treatment cycle. Who in their right minds would pay that? Well..no one. But, due to their owned distributor/specialty pharmacy Philidor, they were able to push prescriptions out, and let Philidor work the system to try and get reimbursement wherever they could. This is not a value-add drug, and the natural market for it (i.e. what informed consumers would pay for the drug) is very small at $8,000, or would require a much lower cost if they want to sell any. I suspect that they will be forced to drop the price very considerably to generate business. Jublia is typical of a Valeant product/strategy, and I think as the air comes out of this over-time, they just won't be able to earn enough to meet their debt obligations (unless, as a poster above speculates, Ackman steps in...although with the amount he has already lost on this, I start to wonder how much deeper his pockets are).
You're talking about Harvoni, right? At that price, it's a bargain. Friend of mine at work got it (he caught Hep C taking care of his dad who had it) and he's cured. Still has his own liver and never had an extended hospital stay once. My liver disease was not Hep C related and just the one hospital stay that included my transplant came with a 1.085mm bill. Granted insurance paid roughly 15% at the negotiated rate but it still came out to a boatload of money. That doesn't include my 3 other multi-week hospital stays or the two weeks at the rehab facility, or the cost of the anti-rejection medicines I will have to take for the rest of my life.
That is an apples to oranges comparison though to the things Shkreli and Valeant were doing. These guys bought generic drug makers that were the sole manufacturer of a certain generic and just jacked the price up a thousand-fold to pay for the acquisition. Not illegal but clearly quite unethical.
My biggest concern with big Pharma is that they are almost exclusively focused on the hunt for the next big blockbuster when there are other very serious needs being ignored because the ROI doesn't hold as much appeal. We've basically run out of antibiotics for the strains of VRE, MRSA, and other antibiotic resistant bacteria that have begun popping up and the industry hasn't developed a new class of antibiotics since, I believe, 1989. It speaks to the wild west analogy another poster brought up.
 
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chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
VRX up $1.03 today on news that it had two drugs approved by the FDA. Things looking good so far.

Looking even better today. Closing out half my position tomorrow on the morning run up. Then holding the other half in case it does make it as a company which is looking increasingly likely.
 

jmc11201

Heisman
Dec 16, 2005
11,752
16,946
113
Looking even better today. Closing out half my position tomorrow on the morning run up. Then holding the other half in case it does make it as a company which is looking increasingly likely.
Well done. Not sure anything has substantially changed though. They are very much in the no-news is good-news camp right now, but a heavy debt load, declining sales, a need to generate the bulk of their earnings in the back half of the year to meet guidance, and payors that are watching them very closely makes me think they still have a lot of work to do.

Personally, I'd take my profit and move on.
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
Well done. Not sure anything has substantially changed though. They are very much in the no-news is good-news camp right now, but a heavy debt load, declining sales, a need to generate the bulk of their earnings in the back half of the year to meet guidance, and payors that are watching them very closely makes me think they still have a lot of work to do.

Personally, I'd take my profit and move on.
So much really comes down to what they can sell the non-core assets for. There was/is a sense that desperate sellers never get the premium price but with debt so cheap to carry, they're not forced to fire sale anything by any deadline. If the sale prices surprise on the upside, you don't want to be short this stock.

After my sale of half the position this morning, my break even price will be around $13.50 a share, meaning it would have to go below that for me to lose money. The upside is in the $50-$75 range but i agree, a lot will have to go right from here. Never the less, will hold half for the big win.
 

jmc11201

Heisman
Dec 16, 2005
11,752
16,946
113
So much really comes down to what they can sell the non-core assets for. There was/is a sense that desperate sellers never get the premium price but with debt so cheap to carry, they're not forced to fire sale anything by any deadline. If the sale prices surprise on the upside, you don't want to be short this stock.

After my sale of half the position this morning, my break even price will be around $13.50 a share, meaning it would have to go below that for me to lose money. The upside is in the $50-$75 range but i agree, a lot will have to go right from here. Never the less, will hold half for the big win.
Based on VRX's prior strategy (raising prices aggressively and cutting costs aggressively), they were able to use cheap debt to overpay for companies and make the math work. Now that the ability to raise prices goes away and there are no costs to cut, it could be argued that the value of the companies they acquired has gone down and that they will have a hard time recouping what they paid.

It isn't my money...so do what you want...but I've made the mistake too many times of trying to hit homeruns when the people I know who hit consistent singles and doubles always come out ahead.
 

RUfromSoCal?

Heisman
Nov 26, 2006
34,596
42,554
113
JMO from what I read in the funny papers - but overpaying for the right to sell drugs other people invented/owned by loading up on debt and raping patients by criminally overcharging for those same drugs is barely a business model.

Getting sued by the largest insurance companies in the country for fraud and probably getting investigated under RICO is not the road to profit......

good luck.......
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
My understanding is they have pushed their debt out a few years so will have no problem meeting obligations as they work and hope things turn for the better. A 15% corporate tax rate would help them a lot.

I've been out of this a long time and am scared of being short and scared of being long. So, I just watch. But if I had to pick, I'd buy it here.
 

patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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Oh yeah, when people think about imploding 90's tech companies, Lucent the phone company is right there at the top of the list. Seriously, that's the best you could come up with to defend your ridiculous analogy? I'm the knob? Don't think so. Everything I've written in this post has been dead on while I still have no idea what you're on about. If you don't like Valeant, then short it and STFU already.


Had to re-visit. If you don't think Lucent was a high tech company, you shouldn't be investing. You are confusing dot.coms with tech I'd imagine. Lucent was very much a tech company that sold equipment to regional and national phone companies.

So you should STFU yourself and my comments about the value of Valeant have been proven out. Would I buy it now? Yes, much more interesting at the current price. But, of course, you sold at the perfect time. Either you are a retiree with no business training or you are a teenager doing virtual trading.
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
Had to re-visit. If you don't think Lucent was a high tech company, you shouldn't be investing. You are confusing dot.coms with tech I'd imagine. Lucent was very much a tech company that sold equipment to regional and national phone companies.

So you should STFU yourself and my comments about the value of Valeant have been proven out. Would I buy it now? Yes, much more interesting at the current price. But, of course, you sold at the perfect time. Either you are a retiree with no business training or you are a teenager doing virtual trading.
Feel better? Lol. Stop stalking me, Creep-o. I'm not the least bit interested in anything you think.
 

c_husk

Senior
Nov 11, 2012
1,538
998
113
Curious whether anyone here has an opinion on this company, which is the poster-child for pharmaceutical companies behaving badly (and I think Valeant is an outlier within the industry): Acquire companies, jack up prices on their products, cutting R&D, aggressive distribution, etc. Stock has imploded and they have a ton of debt, putting future viability of the business in jeopardy.

Anyone have any thoughts on these guys either as investors, employees, doctors, curious onlookers? I've found it to be a fascinating story to follow.

What's the old saying, "Don't catch a dropping knife". I would stay away until the fraud and irregularities are a thing of the past and company posts a few quarters of solid results before buying stock.
 
Dec 17, 2008
45,214
16,774
0
What's the old saying, "Don't catch a dropping knife". I would stay away until the fraud and irregularities are a thing of the past and company posts a few quarters of solid results before buying stock.
I think "never catch a falling knife" is a good saying and I think caution is definitely warranted in those type of situations but in my personal trading I'm somewhat of a "knife catcher."

Those situations can provide some of the best returns. When everyone is scared and running is when I not necessarily buy but I'll stop and take a look and see if it's worth it assuming I think the company is fundamentally sound. It's like that Warran Buffet saying "be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful." It's not necessarily buy just because something has fallen a lot, but more exercise caution and take a look and see.

Valeant wasn't one I'd touch for the reasoning others gave and I gave above, nor was I bold or smart enough to think I could swing trade it and wasn't confident in the fundamentals/debt load of the company and day to day headline risk. Some of the other situations I mentioned though were great times to stick your toes in when everyone was scared and you could have made a nice return if you were brave enough. I know one poster,not me, here was buying CMG (Chipotle) when it was going through their food illness issues. One of the large Fidelity funds was selling quite a bit of it at the time as well. I didn't buy it as I wasn't as confident in it or as familiar but they've been steadily coming around and posted better comps (easier comparisons to beat though) recently and you could have made a nice return.

It doesn't mean you won't be early and won't need to average down a position but if you look at charts/technicals you can find decent spots to stick your toe in after something is already quite oversold and if the company is sound you can come away with nice return. Just my 2 cents.
 
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patk89

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Jul 25, 2001
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Feel better? Lol. Stop stalking me, Creep-o. I'm not the least bit interested in anything you think.


Listen up tool, my last comment was last July and I was dead right about this company. You might as well as have been gambling drunk in Vegas. My advice, people like you should stick to index funds and leave the rest to the professionals. Enjoy your nice little day Mr. Buffet Junior.
 

chase07470

All-American
Oct 16, 2010
10,118
8,378
113
Listen up tool, my last comment was last July and I was dead right about this company. You might as well as have been gambling drunk in Vegas. My advice, people like you should stick to index funds and leave the rest to the professionals. Enjoy your nice little day Mr. Buffet Junior.

You know who loves my annual returns the most? My wife. She's a spender. But thanks for your concern.

I exactly nailed the two stocks I mentioned above, VRX and TSLA short. What have you predicted on this thread? Added to this thread except a lot of hot air? Zilch. Go ahead, make a prediction and we'll see in six months. Doubt we'll get much. Probably a self inflated family planner who thinks the research he's selling is somehow his own. Sad.
 

patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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78
I wish I were as smart ("lucky") as you. Whether you realize it or not, you are not investing. Just like those grandfathers buying tech in the late 90's when they had no idea what they produced. Time tends to sort these things out. I'd advise you to back away.


From last July when I advised you to back away from this stock. It proceeded to fall off a cliff yet you argued. You are basically a retard as is your wife since she married a tiny little man like yourself.
 

patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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78
NYU MBA with over 20 years Wall Street experience talking to a retard. Why do I waste my time? Yes, his imaginary wife is a spender. You can't make this stuff up. Lots of total losers huddled in their parents basements these days. Sad!
 

gmay8

All-Conference
Nov 29, 2005
2,617
2,676
113
Started a position in Valeant. 200 shares at 8.85.

Just an update for anyone who jumped on board a few weeks back.... Valeant is currently up 27% from when I bought some.
I might get out of some of it now.... but a nice little quick win. (after taxes it ain't much)
 
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theRU

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Dec 17, 2008
11,135
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NYU MBA with over 20 years Wall Street experience talking to a retard. Why do I waste my time? Yes, his imaginary wife is a spender. You can't make this stuff up. Lots of total losers huddled in their parents basements these days. Sad!
I dont have a dog in this fight but the way you carry yourself in conversation you might want to ask for your money back from NYU. You seem like a miserable human being and waste of space. If you have kids, hopefully they would be ashamed of how you are conducting yourself, but more likely they're also miserable little pieces of ****.
 
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Dec 17, 2008
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Just an update for anyone who jumped on board a few weeks back.... Valeant is currently up 27% from when I bought some.
I might get out of some of it now.... but a nice little quick win. (after taxes it ain't much)
Still a name I'm too chicken too get in but nice trade.
 

patk89

All-Conference
Jul 25, 2001
6,317
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I dont have a dog in this fight but the way you carry yourself in conversation you might want to ask for your money back from NYU. You seem like a miserable human being and waste of space. If you have kids, hopefully they would be ashamed of how you are conducting yourself, but more likely they're also miserable little pieces of ****.

You, my little idiot friend, are a waste of space. I accurately predicted that this stock would fall and a moron argued. He was wrong and I was right. How about we met before a game this year and I'll teach you a little respect. Front gate, home opener?
 

theRU

All-American
Dec 17, 2008
11,135
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Have a feeling the little secretary at a tech firm will not be able to attend. Sure he fits in well in SF. His type of crowd.
AHAHAHAHA thanks for proving my point. You are a lowlife who feels the need to beat his chest like an ape. I hope you seek out help. You need it.
 

rurichdog

Heisman
Sep 30, 2006
116,807
14,389
0
I dont have a dog in this fight but the way you carry yourself in conversation you might want to ask for your money back from NYU. You seem like a miserable human being and waste of space. If you have kids, hopefully they would be ashamed of how you are conducting yourself, but more likely they're also miserable little pieces of ****.
He did say he was a big swinging d*ck on Wall Street. The shoe fits.
 
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rurichdog

Heisman
Sep 30, 2006
116,807
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Wow! Trash talk over stock picks on a football message board. Amazing.
It's like listening to a group of professional firefighters arguing with a group of volunteer firefighters over who can p*ss out a fire better.
 

ATIOH

All-Conference
Sep 3, 2004
986
1,078
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Started a position in Valeant. 200 shares at 8.85.
Probably the only post I respect in this thread.

It was a small position, but he detailed exactly what he did ON the day he did it. And IMO, the best part was he didn't cherry pick the best price of the day to impress us.

It doesn't hurt that @wasiman is up 41% in two weeks, but I'd respect the post even if he lost money, just for its honesty.

The posters with garbage analysis who make perfect calls 110% of the time are insufferable. Every trader loses money at some point. There's no shame in it... the market can be fickle.

The irony is by trying so hard to impress us with your amazing stock picking abilities, we actually become less impressed.