OT: September 1, 1939

[MadRU]

 

[mdk02]

The beginning of a conflict that rang up around 75 million deaths {civilian and military).

 

[RUGuitarMan1]

To some degree, a continuation of the conflict that began in August 1914. The rush of the modern world toward democracy, liberalism and dynamic market capitalism created a political and economic backlash. The economic collapse of the 1930s gave the authoritarians/fascists the grist they needed to implement their romanticized revolution back to “the glorious past”. Folks should take note.

 

[mdk02]

To some degree, a continuation of the conflict that began in August 1914. The rush of the modern world toward democracy, liberalism and dynamic market capitalism created a political and economic backlash. The economic collapse of the 1930s gave the authoritarians/fascists the grist they needed to implement their romanticized revolution back to “the glorious past”. Folks should take note.

It was also said that the terms of Versailles sowed the seeds of the next war.

 

[Kbe4]

To some degree, a continuation of the conflict that began in August 1914. The rush of the modern world toward democracy, liberalism and dynamic market capitalism created a political and economic backlash. The economic collapse of the 1930s gave the authoritarians/fascists the grist they needed to implement their romanticized revolution back to “the glorious past”. Folks should take note.

The conditions that the victors in The War To End Wars....Britain and France.......placed on a defeated Germany, plus the weariness of their populations with seeing a generation of their young men slaughtered charging out of trenches at machine guns proved to be fertile ground for Adolph and his Germany First boys.

 

[RUGuitarMan1]

The conditions that the victors in The War To End Wars....Britain and France.......placed on a defeated Germany, plus the weariness of their populations with seeing a generation of their young men slaughtered charging out of trenches at machine guns proved to be fertile ground for Adolph and his Germany First boys.

That’s true in regard specifically to Germany. There were similar movements in Italy, Spain, Japan, Portugal and other places. In fact, in the US there were rising factions of fascism in the 1930s. The German American Bund became popular, holding a couple of sold out rallies at MSG in the late 1930s. Father Charles Coughlin in Detroit had a very popular radio show. Also , earlier in the 1920s, the KKK had a huge resurgence throughout the US. The Klan basically ran the state of Indiana in the 1920s. Highly recommend “A Fever in The Heartland” by Timothy Egan. A fascinating book.

 

[Bueller]

That’s true in regard specifically to Germany. There were similar movements in Italy, Spain, Japan, Portugal and other places. In fact, in the US there were rising factions of fascism in the 1930s. The American German Bund became popular, holding a couple of sold out rallies at MSG in the late 1930s. Father Charles Coughlin in Detroit had a very popular radio show. Also , earlier in the 1920s, the KKK had a huge resurgence throughout the US. The Klan basically ran the state of Indiana in the 1920s. Highly recommend “A Fever in The Heartland” by Timothy Egan. A fascinating book.

Oops - don't forget the much larger US communist movement in 1930s. In fact, a reason for FDR's New Deal was to keep the communist movement from expanding during the depression.

"AI Overview: The U.S. communist movement of the 1930s was a left-wing political force focused on labor organizing and anti-fascism, while the pro-Nazi movement in the U.S. was a fringe right-wing network aligned with German fascism and white supremacy."

 

[Bueller]

The beginning of a conflict that rang up around 75 million deaths {civilian and military).

In Europe yes - there were earlier conflicts in places like China, Norway, Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Greece and other places (including Nazi submarines off South America). The Second Sino-Japanese War that began in 1937 saw 2 million Chinese dead and 500k Japanese dead. Many take this war as a kick-off for WW II. China still holds a grudge that there were no Nuremburg type trials for what Japanese did in China. Right now sound experts see WW III already underway in smoldering conflicts that are contained but resistant to resolution as more factions get drawn in

 

[mdk02]

In Europe yes - there were earlier conflicts in places like China, Norway, Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Greece and other places (including Nazi submarines off South America). The Second Sino-Japanese War that began in 1937 saw 2 million Chinese dead and 500k Japanese dead. Many take this war as a kick-off for WW II. China still holds a grudge that there were no Nuremburg type trials for what Japanese did in China. Right now sound experts see WW III already underway in smoldering conflicts that are contained but resistant to resolution as more factions get drawn in

Deaths in all the countries you mention were included post 9/1/39.

 

[Bueller]

Deaths in all the countries you mention were included post 9/1/39.

Ok - but they happened well before Sept 1 1939.

 

[mdk02]

Ok - but they happened well before Sept 1 1939.

Millions in China both before and after 9/1/39. In all those other countries you mention all were after

 

[BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine]

The conditions that the victors in The War To End Wars....Britain and France.......placed on a defeated Germany, plus the weariness of their populations with seeing a generation of their young men slaughtered charging out of trenches at machine guns proved to be fertile ground for Adolph and his Germany First boys.

So true. It was primarily the suffocating reparations ($33Bn at the time) the Euros placed on Germany that led to hyperinflation and the extreme economic crisis post-WW1, which in turn fueled the anger and social uprisings paving the way for Hilter's national socialist agenda.

 

[RUGuitarMan1]

Oops - don't forget the much larger US communist movement in 1930s. In fact, a reason for FDR's New Deal was to keep the communist movement from expanding during the depression.

"AI Overview: The U.S. communist movement of the 1930s was a left-wing political force focused on labor organizing and anti-fascism, while the pro-Nazi movement in the U.S. was a fringe right-wing network aligned with German fascism and white supremacy."


View attachment 1415664

There was support or interest in communist ideology in the US at the height of the Great Depression in the 1930s. The capitalist system had spiraled down and was in crises world wide. At that point in time, communism was not perceived as nearly aggressive and expansive as ultra nationalist fascism. Germany, Japan and Italy were militaristic and invading other countries. Russia was not doing that.

 

[redlinehw]

Hitlers mantra to the German people:

-Germany has been humiliated by other countries
- (scapegoat group) fault that Germany has cultural decline
- (political party) has betrayed you and ruined Germany
-( political party) isn’t just wrong - they are the enemy of Germany
-only he can make Germany great again (paraphrase)
-Germany needs to round up and get rid of (insert scapegoat group) to make Germany great again
-

 

[Bueller]

There was support or interest in communist ideology in the US at the height of the Great Depression in the 1930s. The capitalist system had spiraled down and was in crises world wide. At that point in time, communism was not perceived as nearly aggressive and expansive as ultra nationalist fascism. Germany, Japan and Italy were militaristic and invading other countries. Russia was not doing that.

I'm always careful to separate "the system" from the people. Nobody in the West had a meeting to choose the system. "Hey folks - are we doing capitalism, mercantilism, socialism etc?" The West organically developed a very sophisticated financial system. Most of the problems were due to selfish people - people who will be in any system. Communism breeds tyranny and genocide, and Capitalism is vulnerable to shady dealers, wars and suich.

The founders correctly pointed out that the Constitution was for a moral, high character people where most didn't need law to do the right thing. People abused investments in 20s-30s and they've been doing the same now at spectacular levels. The amount of theft, grift and corruption in US is stupendous and we haven't even seen it all because they learned how to hide it . It really kicked-up in the 90s with a lot of financial sector rigging and a budget crisis that was resolved by not trying to honor laws and burying the grift - letting the foxes run the hen house.

It was in the mid 90s that financial sector "profits" were first included in GDP tally instead of manufacturing, legit services etc.. That's when the markets were rigged to benefit investors fed by sketch accounting gimmicks and "quantitative easing" on the backs of the people stuck with the tab. Socialism for the comfortable class and harsh Darwinian capitalism for workers. That wasn't the fault of capitalism but an "elite class" that shafted the people with rigged financial manipulation.

 

[RUGuitarMan1]

I'm always careful to separate "the system" from the people. Nobody in the West had a meeting to choose the system. "Hey folks - are we doing capitalism, mercantilism, socialism etc?" The West organically developed a very sophisticated financial system. Most of the problems were due to selfish people - people who will be in any system. Communism breeds tyranny and genocide, and Capitalism is vulnerable to shady dealers, wars and suich.

The founders correctly pointed out that the Constitution was for a moral, high character people where most didn't need law to do the right thing. People abused investments in 20s-30s and they've been doing the same now at spectacular levels. The amount of theft, grift and corruption in US is stupendous and we haven't even seen it tall because they learned how to hide it . It really kicked-up in the 90s with a lot of financial sector rigging and a budget crisis that was resolved by not trying to honor laws and burying the grift - letting the foxes run the hen house.

It was in the mid 90s that financial sector "profits" were first included in GDP tally instead of manufacturing, legit services etc.. That's when the markets were rigged to benefit investors fed by sketch accounting gimmicks and "quantitative easing" on the backs of the people stuck with the tab. Socialism for the comfortable class and harsh Darwinian capitalism for workers. That wasn't the fault of capitalism but an "elite class" that shafted the people with rigged financial manipulation.

I agree with most of your assessment. I wouldn’t limit forms of genocide to just communist regimes. The founders did want high character people to run things but understood that people are flawed and knew that the wrong people would be chosen to lead at times. Hence, the separation of powers, three branches, etc. I think the recent rise in imperial executive power would horrify most of the founders. The current era we are in (US) has had more corruption and economic inequality than the “Gilded Age” period (1880-1915).

 

[mdk02]

I agree with most of your assessment. I wouldn’t limit forms of genocide to just communist regimes. The founders did want high character people to run things but understood that people are flawed and knew that the wrong people would be chosen to lead at times. Hence, the separation of powers, three branches, etc. I think the recent rise in imperial executive power would horrify most of the founders. The current era we are in (US) has had more corruption and economic inequality than the “Gilded Age” period (1880-1915).

Gilded age was different in that the bottom with respect to income inequality was a WHOLE lot lower than the bottom is today. I would also question whether the current corruption is greater. And in the 20's "pump and dump" IMHO in the markets was more prevalent.

 

[BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine]

Kinda sounds like some folks here are itching for a political debate. Don't miss the next TKR Premium deal from Richie, it includes the CE Board!

 

[e5fdny]

I like today’s date better:

September 2, 1945…the end.

I read somewhere by the end of the war, every Japanese ship involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor was either sunk, captured or damaged so much it was out of commission.

 

[mdk02]

I like today’s date better:

September 2, 1945…the end.

I read somewhere by the end of the war, every Japanese ship involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor was either sunk, captured or damaged so much it was out of commission.

The carriers for sure. Not sure about the rest

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

To some degree, a continuation of the conflict that began in August 1914. The rush of the modern world toward democracy, liberalism and dynamic market capitalism created a political and economic backlash. The economic collapse of the 1930s gave the authoritarians/fascists the grist they needed to implement their romanticized revolution back to “the glorious past”. Folks should take note.

I read a book that drew a line from the French Revolution (but more importantly the rise of Napoleon) through to WW1 and WW2.

 

[Colbert17!]

I like today’s date better:

September 2, 1945…the end.

I read somewhere by the end of the war, every Japanese ship involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor was either sunk, captured or damaged so much it was out of commission.

Read the same thing. Another tidbit about the IJN ,none of their ships were equipped with liferafts or life jackets. If your ship was sunk so were you.

 

[Bueller]

Map of some sunk Japanese navy ships. Others in other areas not included (no merchant ships either).


During World War II, Japan embarked on an aggressive shipbuilding program to support its military ambitions. Key figures include:

• Warships: Around 230 major warships were built during the war, including battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, and submarines.
• Merchant Ships: Japan produced approximately 6,300 merchant ships during the war, including transports, tankers, and cargo vessels, to sustain its war effort and supply lines.

Ships Lost​

The losses were staggering and occurred across all types of vessels:

1. Major Warships:
   • Approximately 335 warships(including pre-war vessels) were lost. These included:
     • 11 battleships (e.g., Yamato, Musashi, and Hiei).
     • 25 aircraft carriers (including Shinano, the largest aircraft carrier at the time).
     • Over 130 destroyers.
     • Many cruisers and submarines.
2. Merchant Ships:
   • Around 3,000 merchant ships, amounting to over 8 million gross tons, were sunk by Allied submarines, aircraft, and naval forces.
   • This loss severely hampered Japan’s ability to transport troops, supplies, and raw materials.