I'm looking for a training plan that someone has used and had success with. I've run 6 previous marathons and have trained using Jack Daniels, Hal Higdon, and maybe one other plan. I've hit the wall hard around mile 18-19 no matter what plan I use. I'm old and slow (run about a 4 hour marathon), but I wanted to try something different for the Memphis St. Jude. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
OT: Marathon training plan
- Thread starter BonzoGoesToCollege
- Start date
http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Marathoning-2nd-Pete-Pfitzinger/dp/0736074600
No doubt the best training plans there are. The key is putting in miles-lots of them.
No doubt the best training plans there are. The key is putting in miles-lots of them.
Props to you. I was a sprinter growing up and never did any distance. I recently started doing a half marathon plan. I don't know if there's any way I could see me doing a full. That's a lot of hard work and dedication to do that.
If you are constantly crashing at mile 18 then you are probably going out too fast. I run the first half at a slower pace, watch a bunch of people pass me, then I see them again around mile 20 and they are walking it in.
Also, it is important to get weekly sprint intervals in and some tempo runs (2 miles slow, 3 fast, 1 slow, 1 fast, etc., or some other combination). Then do your long slow run on the weekend.
Check your nutrition also. Maybe add in some sugar for your long runs. I eat Waffle Stingers and a kind bar in small bites at a time so I never get to the point where I am hungry. I can't do the GU's or cliff shots and the Stingers are a great source of natural sugar.
Also, it is important to get weekly sprint intervals in and some tempo runs (2 miles slow, 3 fast, 1 slow, 1 fast, etc., or some other combination). Then do your long slow run on the weekend.
Check your nutrition also. Maybe add in some sugar for your long runs. I eat Waffle Stingers and a kind bar in small bites at a time so I never get to the point where I am hungry. I can't do the GU's or cliff shots and the Stingers are a great source of natural sugar.
What's been your weekly mileage? I think everyone's different... but I know for me the "minimum" 35-40 miles per week doesn't get it done. I've got to get on up towards 45-50 per week. And that's tough for me, so I've settled on halves for the time being (until the kids get a little older).
I'm no expert but have always been told from people a lot more experienced than me - you're either fueling wrong, running too fast, or not training enough. I've never really followed a specific plan (I make my own) and most people I run with don't either unless they have a time goal. I've found all of my race times improve with more miles, but I do reach a point where injuries start to become an issue. I don't think I could run over 50 miles per week.
I also don't buy into the whole tapering thing. Sure, someone running 100 miles per week needs time off to rest up - but us regular folks shouldn't need as much time to recuperate as elite runners. I've found just backing off some for the last 3-4 runs is plenty.
I'm no expert but have always been told from people a lot more experienced than me - you're either fueling wrong, running too fast, or not training enough. I've never really followed a specific plan (I make my own) and most people I run with don't either unless they have a time goal. I've found all of my race times improve with more miles, but I do reach a point where injuries start to become an issue. I don't think I could run over 50 miles per week.
I also don't buy into the whole tapering thing. Sure, someone running 100 miles per week needs time off to rest up - but us regular folks shouldn't need as much time to recuperate as elite runners. I've found just backing off some for the last 3-4 runs is plenty.
For my last one, my max weeks were 45 miles and my recovery weeks were low 30's. I've know some fast guys that max out about there and run sub 3's easily so I decided to try it. Didn't work out as well as I had hoped. I had trained for some other races using 55 miles as my peak and I was exhausted and felt burnt out come race day. I'm sure my diet is part of the problem and probably not getting enough calories during the race. I plan to focus more on diet and probably keep my max in the mid-to-high 40's.
back in the day when i could run i didn't focus
exactly on miles per week, but if you're going to run marathons, IMO, you have to have regular long runs. 18-20 miles. if you've never run 20 then 26 is hard. i also found that interval training was important to building the strength and stamina needed. studies have also shown you get diminishing marginal utility from too many training days.. 5 a week is about optimum....you get "some' noticeable increase with the 6th day but a 7th day actually can diminish fitness.
exactly on miles per week, but if you're going to run marathons, IMO, you have to have regular long runs. 18-20 miles. if you've never run 20 then 26 is hard. i also found that interval training was important to building the strength and stamina needed. studies have also shown you get diminishing marginal utility from too many training days.. 5 a week is about optimum....you get "some' noticeable increase with the 6th day but a 7th day actually can diminish fitness.
It's not about miles. You only need to do one long run per week, one interval sprint and one tempo. That is it. I think the most I have ever run in week training for a marathon was 30, and that included a 20 mile run. The intervals and tempo will increase your speed. If you are knocking out that many miles you are asking for an injury and burn out.
It's all about Relentless Effort and Strain. And during the race don't try to keep up with the big timers. Just focus on staying ahead of lower level runners and you should be fine.
It's absolutely about the miles. While I'm sure you ran a great time at 30mpw, I would be curious to see how you could do if you actually trained. I've done the three day a week FIRST training plan with x training days. I've also trained at 70-80mpw. There is no question which prepared me more. Sure intervals and speed work should be part of any plan, but a 8-14 mile midweek run can do wonders if you want to do your best. 3-5 mile recovery runs are important as well. I guess it all depends on what you want out of your training.
Best thing I found was to switch to an ultra marathon training plan where you do back to back long runs every weekend. For instance, 10 on Saturday followed by 8-10 on Sunday. On weekends where you do a 16 or 18 miler on Saturday you have to do 5-8 miler on Sunday. Yes it is brutal. But it is more mental than physical. If you can push your body to run longer on the day after your weekly long run, that will train you to blow through the wall on marathon day. Then you reduce your weekday runs to 2-4 miles each and also add one to two days of swimming on your non-run days.
Sounds like your mileage is fine. Most people I run with never run over 50 miles during training. May just experiment with fueling during your long training runs. Also be sure your pace is reasonable. If you're just getting physically exhausted - I'd say it's a fueling issue. If you're cramping up real bad, I'd say your pace is too fast and you're overworking your muscles during the first 20 miles.
The only plan I've heard a few people recommend is the FIRST less is more plan --- run 3 days and 2 days hard crosstraining. But I've also heard people blast it, so who knows. Good luck whatever you decide.
The only plan I've heard a few people recommend is the FIRST less is more plan --- run 3 days and 2 days hard crosstraining. But I've also heard people blast it, so who knows. Good luck whatever you decide.
Ugh? Strength training is very important...pounding pavement all day long is not the answer. I guess when I train for tri's I should only swim, bike and run?
My advice is hire a coach if you are really serious, but please do not amp up your mileage as most have indicated. I used one for my last marathon, which included 3 days of crossfit. Tinker with your nutrition and add in some intervals during the week. Good luck!
My advice is hire a coach if you are really serious, but please do not amp up your mileage as most have indicated. I used one for my last marathon, which included 3 days of crossfit. Tinker with your nutrition and add in some intervals during the week. Good luck!
I have no personal experience with FIRST, and never plan to. But in this situation --- I've got a good friend who normally runs ~4 hour marathons as the OP said. He's run about 15 over the last 15 years, and the only time he used that plan he set a 10 minute PR (3:45). He's never used it again just because he wants to run more than 3 days a week.
Exactly. Throw in some core work if you have time. While training for my numerous shorter tri's, several halfs and one full IM, swim, bike and run training really helped on race day considering that's what I did during the races.
Here's my simple advice. I used half marathonrookie and marathonrookie training plans to prepare for mr first half about 6 years ago, then my one and only full a year later. I've always been all or nothing kind of guy so a plan that gave me only one back to back each week seemed too easy, but it worked for me.
The trick as everyone says is sticking with it. I ran my only marathon in 4:15. I kept hearing the horror stories about the wall, but it never came so I must have been prepared. My only regret was not putting my smokes aside at that time so I wonder how much faster I could do it.
I stick to halves theses days and often use the same plan to prepare. I've never done speed work or any of the other suggested variances. I try to keep it fresh with trail runs, a good play list, or more recently the boneyard. Over time My half times improved from 10 pace to 8:30.
In fact, if you're local, you could use the road race series to prep yourself for the marathon by year end. But then again,... You've already done more marathons than I'd ever do.
Good luck!
The trick as everyone says is sticking with it. I ran my only marathon in 4:15. I kept hearing the horror stories about the wall, but it never came so I must have been prepared. My only regret was not putting my smokes aside at that time so I wonder how much faster I could do it.
I stick to halves theses days and often use the same plan to prepare. I've never done speed work or any of the other suggested variances. I try to keep it fresh with trail runs, a good play list, or more recently the boneyard. Over time My half times improved from 10 pace to 8:30.
In fact, if you're local, you could use the road race series to prep yourself for the marathon by year end. But then again,... You've already done more marathons than I'd ever do.
Good luck!
Not the answer to your question, but I'll offer this. If you give trail running a try, you won't want to go back to road work. It's difficult to find decent trail systems in most places around the state, but there are a few. Nothing like hauling *** through mudholes, over felled trees and other obstacles, experiencing God's creation up close and personal. You'll go through socks and shoes pretty regularly. Don't spring for the expensive trail shoes. I run trails in minimalist shoes with a little tread and have no traction issues.
Someone check on the Rabbi. There's no smarm or sarcasterisks in his post!***
If I ever do run, outside of chasing little leaguers around a diamond, your version sounds more appealing.
If I ever do run, outside of chasing little leaguers around a diamond, your version sounds more appealing.
Rabbi, I've gathered
you're over in the Madison area, so I assume you've ran the Ridgeland mountain bike trails before. If not, you should give it a try. They're really nice.
you're over in the Madison area, so I assume you've ran the Ridgeland mountain bike trails before. If not, you should give it a try. They're really nice.
"Tapering" isn't necessarily about resting up. A big part of training (particularly at your mileage) is creating larger glycogen stores and training your body to efficiently use them. By the time you're on your last two weeks, they should be "empty." The taper allows them to replenish way above what they've been at. So the result isn't an okay run, but rather, you come out with more pop and you can sustain it better because all of a sudden you've got this whole new has tank. There's also some thought that we can similarly train our fat stores (plentiful regardless of size) to work similarly and that that's a huge part of successful marathoning
GU
Just out of curiosity, why can't you do GU? The reason I ask is that I have always used GU on runs greater than 11-12 miles and personally, I don't feel like I'm getting any kind of a boost using it.
Just out of curiosity, why can't you do GU? The reason I ask is that I have always used GU on runs greater than 11-12 miles and personally, I don't feel like I'm getting any kind of a boost using it.
Where are these trails? It's getting more dangerous to ride on the roads these days (a friend of mine damn near got killed last year), so I'm thinking about getting out the old hybrid bike I haven't even touched in over a decade and maybe riding a little off-road.
Revisiting this thread. So has anyone hired a coach and shown improvement in marathon times with the coach? And if so, can you provide a name and contact information of that person?
Thanks
Did any of you guys who have run marathons before experience a sudden loss of interest in the Egg Bowl? I hear that is a side effect.**
I used to struggle with similar issues and they were hard to fix with in-race nutrition. It really sounds like the poster is struggling to break into his energy reserves (can't remember the exact compound) that kick in later during a run. The best way I found to train that was to run on a 10+ hour fast. Typically I would arrange an early dinner and run the following morning. No need to run longer than 8 miles though I'd ramp up from 3 or 4. You'll really start cooking with fire if you eat, run 6 that night then run again the following AM before eating again.
You could try energy balls instead of GU. There’s a ton of recipes so play with it and see what you like. Store them in little ziplock baggies. As an ultra runner, I use them on my long runs and I don’t hit the wall like I used to. Also, to give it more credibility, all of my Iron Man and ultra running friends swear by them on their activities.
https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition/eat-this-then-run
https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition/eat-this-then-run
It sounds like several of you folks are experienced runners. I’ve been training with Fleet Feet and will be running my third on Sunday in Baton Rouge, shooting for a sub 4. My problem on long runs is getting an upset stomach. The less I eat prior to the run the better, but that’s not going to help with nutrition for 26.2 miles. Anybody have any suggestions? I normally take a Gu every 6 Miles.
I like the “salted” GU or the Roctane. Seem to be easier on my stomach than the normal fruit flavored ones. Maybe the extra sodium helps or maybe it’s just in my head. How early are you eating before running? I try to eat 1.5-2 hours before I run. Any closer and my stomach feels unsettled
