My grandson who is in his last semester of college, took the LSAT twice. Both times he got 168. I would be interested in any info on financial aid, or scholarships that might be available from colleges, or other sources, and how to go about it. Meanwhile he is pursuing same.
OT: Law school ?
- Thread starter JDNB
- Start date
Congratulations to your grandson. What he should do is to figure out what law schools he would like to go to, apply to them, and see what kind of packages he can get from the schools that accept him. He should also look into student loans, which are readily (perhaps too readily!) available to law students.
As a soon-to-be college graduate he should be able to figure all that out. But then again, maybe you need a 170 to figure that out.
Your grandson needs to figure out the following:
- does he want to take out loans or walk out of law school with minimal debt
- where would he prefer to be geographically.. for the top 10-15 law schools, it doesn’t matter but if you are thinking beyond that then geography becomes a bigger issue
then he can start making a list of where to apply.
- does he want to take out loans or walk out of law school with minimal debt
- where would he prefer to be geographically.. for the top 10-15 law schools, it doesn’t matter but if you are thinking beyond that then geography becomes a bigger issue
then he can start making a list of where to apply.
168 is a pretty good score. It's maybe a little short of Harvard, but might be good enough for Cornell, as a reach. My daughter got into Fordham (#37) with a 164, so he's in good shape.
All good law schools are expensive. He should go to the best one he can afford.
All good law schools are expensive. He should go to the best one he can afford.
My nephew graduated from an Ivy in '21 with a ton of loans to pay off. I don't think I would be comfortable looking at that big a nut but he's also making a lot so I guess in some way it evens out.
That was the math that we applied. It's like a whole big project now, figuring out how much law school to pay for.
The younger brother of one of my RU buddies did Columbia for undergrad and law and racked up about $300,000 in loans. Forgot the exact details, but he took a high paying DC law firm job (which wasn't his career goal) and literally lived like a hermit/pauper so almost every dime could go to paying off the loans. Got them paid off in 3 years or so (IIRC), quit the job, then got the job he really wanted. That was his plan. He knew he had to sacrifice those years to make everything work.
Crazy stuff. Very impressive.
It is worth it to pay for the very best. The education may or may not be better, but the more prestigious the law school, the more doors that will open upon graduation. If a student goes to a lesser school, he or she will need to be at the absolute top of the class in order to have the kind of opportunities that are available to many graduates at the most prestigious schools. Beside, the less prestigious schools are, in general, not much cheaper than the more prestigious schools.
Take this mans advice. Law school is expensive no matter if you are going to Yale or East Bumble law. Much like Wall St internships law school internships at the most prestigious firms are reserved for the perceived top schools. Not saying you can't be successful going to any law school but there are more open doors at the top.
If he got a 168, he should apply to all top 14 law schools (assuming good grades) and a few schools outside in a market he wants to work in and see if they give a full ride WITHOUT stipulations. Some law schools will give a full ride and then put all the full riders in the same section and force half them below the curve causing them to lose their scholarship.
Regarding loans if you graduate from a top 14 it shouldn't be much of an issue to pay them back. But I graduated during a real recession and can tell you that people from NYU (ranked #4) were begging for government jobs and people from Michigan (top 10) graduates included people who became professional poker players and farmers. So you never know but hope nothing like that ever happens again.
Regarding loans if you graduate from a top 14 it shouldn't be much of an issue to pay them back. But I graduated during a real recession and can tell you that people from NYU (ranked #4) were begging for government jobs and people from Michigan (top 10) graduates included people who became professional poker players and farmers. So you never know but hope nothing like that ever happens again.
Go to the best school irrespective of money unless you want to be a government lawyer or public interest. Starting salaries with bonuses are north of $200k so loans will be paid within a few years. Now, if you don’t want a big law job you’ll be in financial hell for the next 20+ years.
It really helps to have gone to a prestigious school even for public interest and government jobs, especially public interest jobs because there are so few jobs.
The biggest problem for law students is that many borrow more than they need. One financial aid counselor said that law students often try to live like professionals while still in school .
‘Practicing law is like being a football coach. You must be smart enough to know how to do it, and dumb enough to care.’ -Lionel Hutz, Esquire
Thanks to everyone for their input. My grandson is able to handle most of this on his own. He is presently inquiring at schools to see what is available and decide what is the best ave. For him to take. According to his mother, he has already received positive responses.
As your grandson almost certainly knows, it is easy to research the LSAT ranges at law schools, so he will be able to make an informed decision about his chances at various schools. Again, good luck to him!!
Congratulations to your grandson. The best advice IMO was by @T2Kplus10 . Living with high debt can really be stressful when you figure out you picked the wrong job or wrong profession. This happens a lot with lawyers. Pay off any debt asap. Being debt free equals freedom.
A colleague's daughter applied to law schools a couple of years ago. Consider William and Mary. They were very generous with aid/scholarship.
I am nonplussed by school prestige, but I work in a niche area of patents, where any knucklehead like me can go to any law school and there are always more jobs than attorneys to fill those jobs. IMO, if your grandson gets a good deal where he has to pay a minimal amount, give that school heavy consideration. Not everyone wants to work in NYC or a satellite office of a mega firm in NJ for top dollar. And they pay top dollar for a reason--they work new associates to death. Also, while not true for every large law firm, but my general experience is that there can be a lot of stuffy, unpleasant partners that new associates have to work with.
Does your grandson have an idea of a particular area of law he wants to specialize in? It is good to have a plan early on, and there are some schools that may not be the highest rank law schools, but have an excellent reputation and placement success in specialties. The old Franklin Pierce Law School (now I think University of New Hampshire) is an example for patent law--it is a go to law school for hiring by big firms and corporations because of its reputation in patent law.
Finally, does your grandson have a "why" he wants to be a lawyer? I went to a law school with a lot of students who thought practicing law was like the old TV show LA Law, and they came to find out that they were graduating with close to $300K in debt and only able to secure a job paying $50,000 per year (this was back in the 1990s). As I tell many students and my own children NEVER pick a career or job because it pays a lot of money. You have to love what you do, and no amount of money will make a person love a job or a workplace they hate.
Finally again, hopefully this did not come across as gloom and doom. Even if your grandson does not get into a prestigious law school, if he is entrepreneurial, I have found the happiest attorneys (and doing the best financially, which is a plus) are those that went out and started their own firms. We did that 20 years ago, because we did not like the billing practices and the way law firms treated associates and employees. We have a happy family of attorneys and employees, and while not making the same money as big law partners, are very comfortable, and more importantly, we enjoy going to work each day.
Public interest and gov employees get their loans forgiven in 10 years and would likely be covered by income based repayment beforehand.
I scored a 167, chose Rutgers on a full ride rather than the expensive NY schools I also got into with no funding, and successfully made it into “big law” and make as much as my peers from the NY schools with none of the debt. It’s a riskier approach as those big jobs aren’t as easy to come by from a school like Rutgers, but through networking and good grades it’s still possible. Happy to talk to him about my path if he prefers (graduated in the last 6 years), just send me a message if so.
I was wondering how Rutgers does in NYC biglaw firms. Same for Seton Hall. It was tough sledding in the 1990s, but I found with a brief stop at one large law firm, it was not for me. You are correct about the networking and good grades. Use your law school and undergrad network. Some don't respond, but I have generally found Rutgers alums help out Rutgers students. I go out of my way and spend a lot of time with students who reach out to me for guidance/assistance.
First of all, congratulations to you! Your case is unusual became it involves Rutgers, whose tuition is relatively low. Most "non-prestigious" law schools don't carry that advantage. Even as Rutgers, it's not always clear what the best course of action is. Everyone has his or her own story. I know a woman who was admitted to Northwestern Law and Rutgers Law. Her parents persuaded her to go to Rutgers on the grounds that meant less debt. She has a very fine career -- but she tells me that every day she regrets the decision not to go to Northwestern. OTOH, I know a woman who chose Rutgers over NYU, and thinks her decision worked out great. As you say, your path is riskier professionally. Whether the added risk is worth the lesser debt is a question everyone must decide for him or herself. Let me emphasize again that Rutgers' situation is unusual -- most low-prestige schools cost just as much as the prestigious ones.
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You are absolutely right that everyone has to think through carefully why he or she wants to go through law school. Being a lawyer is *very* hard work and many lawyers would freely admit they don't enjoy practicing law.
Not a law guy . I always thought the “small” lawyer could do well. The guy that everyone in town goes to for wills, real estate closings . Maybe even a divorce here or there . Or some traffic court BS at municipal .
Once in a while get into the state civil court and motion and fee clients up the A$$z
I would think many of these guys are well into the six figures net . No ? And for them the law school wouldn’t matter ?
Once in a while get into the state civil court and motion and fee clients up the A$$z
I would think many of these guys are well into the six figures net . No ? And for them the law school wouldn’t matter ?
Again thanks to everyone above. While it is up to him to make the decisions, I do relay what info I receive. He is a Nj resident, and RU is one of the schools he is interested in. He is scheduled to graduate from Purdue, with a degree in aeronautical eng., a field he would like to get into, on the legal side.
With a 168 LSAT, he can probably do better than Rutgers both in the NYC and Philly law firms. The prime reason to go to Rutgers would be for the lesser tuition, and, with a 168 LSAT, he could probably get a semi-free ride, thus lowering the cost even more. But there's a trade-off in terms of job opportunities unless he does really, really well at law school. His LSAT (and the fact that he has a background in a rigorous major like aeronautical engineering (as opposed, say, to feminist studies) and that he went to an excellent undergraduate school like Purdue (most Rutgers law students went to far lesser institutions)) gives him a very good chance of doing that, but it's still a crapshoot.
Moreover, it is hard to *stay* a partner. It used to be that being a partner was like having tenure as a professor, but no more. Law firms now get rid of partners all the time. Partners are pressured to bring business in, and that requires a big investment of time and energy.
That's harder than it used to be. General practitioners are becoming a thing of the past, just as in medicine. A lawyer needs to specialize. Oddly enough, trying to specialize in law school doesn't work that well; it's hard to know exactly how one's career will go.
I love this thread. Mazel Tov to your grandson. I think the best advice, is to have some idea of what he wants to do as an Attorney. Having gone to law school in Oklahoma in the 1980's, all everyone could talk about was coming back "north" and working in NYC. They were shocked when I said I want nothing of it. There is a balance of work and quality of life. Law school education is wonderful, practicing law, is not, on the other hand, for everyone. Because, as has been stated, people have unrealistic ideas of what the day to day life is like.
The LSAT score range is 120–180, and the median score is approximately 152. You need to get about 60 questions right (out of 99–102 questions) to get that median score of 152, which means you need to bat about 60 percent.
FWIW, the LSAT used to be on the same 200-800 scale as each SAT. One's verbal SAT score was a good predictor of LSAT score. In my case, there was only a one point difference.
Because your grandson majored in aeronautical engineering, he might want to become a patent lawyer like @Knight Shift. As he indicates, law school "prestige" matters less there -- what's important is whether you're skilled in both law and technology.
Most law students dislike law school, especially after the first year. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "In the first year they scare you to death, in the second year they work you to death, and in the third year they bore you to death." Law students do not realize that being in school is an absolute piece of cake compared to working. That's why law students who have worked between college and law school are at an advantage -- they know a good thing when they see one.
At the risk of piling on . . .the Rutgers LSAT range is from 153 (25th percentile) to 158 (75th percentile). They'd kill to have a kid from a school like Purdue with a 168 LSAT, so there ought to be a lot of scholarship money there. But your grandson can almost certainly get into a more prestigious school if he wants to.
May have to become my new sig!
JDNB- please feel free to message me and we can connect offline. Your grandson has the right background to become a patent attorney. I would be pleased to meet him via Zoom/Teams/etc. and/or he would be welcome to come to our office. He could even spend a day or two or three to see what a patent attorney does on a daily basis. Snarky joke coming: Warning, it is exciting as watching grass grow.
Seriously, however, I love what I do mainly because I love my coworkers, and I enjoy the process of taking new inventions and bringing them to life in patents. I have never been bored, and I am often challenged to come up to speed quickly on new technology to write a cogent and legally enforceable patent document.