OT: HVAC discussion

[Dawgbyte]

My 11 year old Goodman A/C unit is about to kick the bucket so I am preparing to purchase a new HVAC. Is it worth the extra money to go with 2 stage units or even variable speed units, or just go with a less expensive single stage unit? Anyone have experience with the 2 stage or variable speed units and did it cut your electric bill down? I've got to get a 5 ton unit and I've been quoted anywhere from $3500 to $15000.

Interested to hear different opinions and advice, and also brands that everyone likes or dislikes.

 

[deanbar]

kinda in the same boat--have 2 central units--plus 2 small window units that i picked up earlier this year for spot duty--coil leak in central #2--for the moment we relocated to cover--so i googled and found some interesting data


https://www.angieslist.com/articles/difference-between-best-hvac-brands.htm --- makes the point that getting a good reliable contractor is the best first step----

http://www.toptenreviews.com/home/hvac/best-central-air-conditioning-units/

[FONT=&quot]If you're upgrading your central air, don't assume you should buy the same-sized system. Any changes you've made to improve your home's energy efficiency, such as upgrading your windows or adding insulation, can reduce your cooling needs. On the other hand, if you've added rooms, you might need more cooling.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Have your contractor do a load calculation based on a recognized method, such as Manual J from the ACCA. The contractor's evaluation should include whether your ducts need to be resized, sealed and insulated, or replaced. Remember that an indoor evaporator coil and outdoor condenser must be a matched set from the same brand, or else the performance, efficiency, and capacity may not meet expectations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]New systems are 20 to 40 percent more efficient than minimum-efficiency models made even 10 years ago

[/FONT]
[h=3]Installation: Find the Right Contractor[/h][FONT=&quot]Whether you're replacing an older air conditioner or installing one for the first time, finding a trustworthy contractor to install and service an air-conditioning system matters the most. Here's what to do.
Ask around. Seek referrals from neighbors, family, or business associates. It's wise to get price quotes from at least three contractors.
Check their background. Contractors who bid on your installation should show you verification of bonding and insurance, plus any required contractor's licenses. Check with your local Better Business Bureau and consumer affairs office for complaint records. It's a plus if technicians are certified by a trade organization, such as North American Technician Excellence or HVAC Excellence, to service residential heating and cooling equipment. Those and other similar programs assess the technician's knowledge of specific types of equipment and their proper service methods.
Get specifics. Contractors who bid on your job should calculate required cooling capacity by using a recognized method such as the ACCA's Residential Load Calculation Manual, also called Manual J. An additional reference for assessing ductwork needs is Manual D. The calculations produce a detailed, room-by-room analysis of cooling needs. Ask for a printout of all calculations and assumptions, including ductwork design. Be leery of a contractor who bases estimates merely on house size or vague rules of thumb.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&[/FONT]
[h=3]1. Day and Night Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment

[/h]Although Day and Night is not as well known of a heating and air conditioning supply company as some of their competitors, they are currently number one on our list of the top 10 air conditioner brands. Their products are reliable and their customer service is top notch. But there’s another reason we like them, and it’s because of who manufactures their equipment. Day and Night is made by United Technologies, who also makes Carrier, they use many of the same internal components, and we were told by a United Technologies representative (the company that owns both names) that they are actually rolled off of the same assembly line. Yet, Carrier sometimes runs $800 to $2,500 more than Day and Night.
Why? As someone who has installed and repaired the internal components of each, I can tell you that they are almost identical. As such, Day and Night gets our vote for the best value on our top ten list.
[h=3]2. Goodman Heating and Air Conditioning[/h]Second on our list of top 10 air conditioner brands is Goodman Manufacturing. Goodman is owned by Amana, and just like the relationship between Carrier and Day and Night, Goodman is the more affordable version of Amana. They use the same internal components, and have a reputation for reliability. Plus, they have the best warranty pay-out program on the market.



[h=3]10. Lennox Air Conditioning and Heating[/h]Lennox rounds out the bottom of our list of the top 10 air conditioner brands. We just can’t recommend them.
10-20 years ago, they were THE name in heating and air conditioning equipment. Unfortunately, they have since become problematic. Unlike other manufacturers who use similar or even the same internal components, Lennox is completely proprietary. To get parts, you have to go through Lennox. So what’s the problem? The problem is that their logistics chain is horrible. It takes weeks to get parts, and when you do, expect to pay three times as much for them. Their customer service also leaves something to be desired. As such, we steer our customers completely clear of Lennox equipment whenever possible, even though we are licensed to install them. We do repair them, however…the last time took us two weeks to get the part and it was flown in from Toronto, Canada. Just a thought…

from http://asm-air.com/airconditioning/top-10-air-conditioner-brands/ contractor servicing l.a. calif

 

[Bob Sacamano.sixpack]

www.hvac-talk.com

Great place to get some direct advice from professionals (semi-unbiased).

 

[RocketDawg]

Are you getting heat pumps or just cooling, and then heating some other way? I have two two-stage heat pumps with electrical strip backup and I really like them. Before, I had what the building contractor put in the house many years ago with a SEER of about 4 or 5. The new ones are Rheem Prestige with a SEER of 16. I've had them about 7 years, and yes, both my cooling and heating bills have dropped substantially. My most recent, for July, was $200 and I have about 3000 sq ft.

 

[thatsbaseball]

I just replaced my big unit (5 ton) that was 22 years old with a much higher seer, more efficient 4 ton unit. It is a split unit with the coil and heat in the attic and handles about 1800 feet. The 4 ton unit so far has been really good and runs less and keeps the house cooler. I went with Goodman and used my existing duct work. My cost installed with tax was $5400.....don`t know if that`s good, bad or about right but it was a hot S.O.B. when I bought it and I needed some relief !

 

[DirtyDog]

I replaced my 5-ton Carrier variable with two 3-ton Trane units (13 SEER) to split upstairs and down apart. That allowed me to cool the upstairs in the heat of the summer as cold as I wanted. While the upfront cost was high (especially as I moved the outside units to the other side of the house away from my deck), my electric bill has dropped in half over the summer. I anticipated some savings, but it was better than I estimated. Thus, I have been very happy with the Trane units. I think a big factor is who is the easiest/best HVAC contractor in your area to deal with. Who will come when you call? I think the service industry as a whole has lost the "service" part of today's businesses so finding a contractor that is easy to deal with is important to me. I think most of the big vendors all have comparable products, just get something with high SEER (at least 10+ if you go down a couple notches from top tier). I would also stay away from the more complicated units like my old one that had temperature sensors in each room and baffled ducts etc. The more complicated the system, the more **** to break, and the more costly to work on/repair.

 

[aTotal360]

I love my heat pump with multiple zones. At night we just heat or cool the bedrooms. Vice versa during the day. I've got 2900 sq ft and my power bill was $205 this month. I was paying more than that in an 1800 sq ft house 5 years ago.

 

[MagicCityDawg]

Variable Speed is coming into mainstream now...

It's no longer a fringe or new technology with cooling. Most of your manufacturers are using variable speed technology to obtain the higher SEER ratings.

Yes, it will save you on your energy bill. It may not be appreciable depending on the efficiency of your older unit. That being said, I would recommend a variable speed system. Also, if you have natural gas available, I would recommend a heat pump coupled with a gas furnace for low ambient conditions. This will be your absolute lowest utility cost, even in the brief periods of very cold weather.

With regard to brand, you are much better off buying a contractor, not a brand. That is, each brand can have a bad run ever so often if they change configurations. All in all, while they are mechanical, today's systems can run for 15+ years with little to no problems. However, when problems do occur, you want a contractor that will respond to service calls quickly. Ultimately, your customer satisfaction is going to be more closely related to the capability/response of your contractor, not the name on the unit.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

More features = more expensive to buy initially, more likely to break and more expensive to fix

 

[Dawgbyte]

Seems pretty clear the most important thing is the contractor and not necessarily the brand. What are some of the highly recommended contractors in the Jackson and Reservoir area?

Environment Masters, ComfortTech, and Climate Masters are some of the ones I know but not sure if they are highly recommended, just have the big name.

 

[OleMissLogo]

Environment Masters is the best in the state. ComforTech and Climate Masters are both good because of the size of the company, but they use lesser quality stuff.

A few questions for you:

1) Are you an Atmos Energy customer, too?

2) What's the sqft of your home? Age? Number of stories?

3) Are you able to pay-in-full or do you need to do payments?

4) Do any of those quotes include changing out the furnace as well?

 

[HotMop]

I'm an Engineer for Trane so I am somewhat biased. But here is my take:

1. Don't buy Goodman.
2. Variable Speed compressors are coming into the market...avoid due to reliability.
3. Variable speed units are the way to go, no doubt.
4. Make sure it is not a Micro Channel coil, looks like a car radiator. These are being touted as great but they are trash being pushed by marketing while they are being engineered out.


Pick a brand with a good contractor and a 10 year warranty, pay the cost to get the 10 year if it is an upgrade if you plan on staying in your house. Capacitors are a piece of trash in newer models and no matter what brand you own they will blow. If a 20 year old comes to install your unit tell them no thanks.

Brands I'd put in my own house based on tear downs I've performed.

Daikin - huge in Asia, purchased Goodman to get into the U.S. market. Make sure it comes from overseas and not Houston. That plant is a mess.
Carrier
Trane - if purchasing a Trane unit you normally get a great contractor. American Standard is identical to Trane, it even goes down the same production line. The only difference is the sticker. Issue here is finding a good contractor.

 

[Dawgbyte]

okay, Environment Masters game me a quote yesterday on a Lennox. I feel like I'd pay a lot for the Lennox name, but they pushed it bc they are a premier dealer for Lennox.

1. I am not an Atmos Energy customer. Assuming you ask bc I have heard they offer rebates.
2. The area this unit will serve is about 2500sf. We have a small upstairs that is run off a 2 ton heat pump unit.
3. Haven't decided what I will do yet, Lowes/Lennox has some pretty good finance options, but I may pay in full unless I go to high end.
4. Yes, the higher quotes include replacing the furnace.

 

[TaleofTwoDogs]

I needed to replace one of my split units last year and I took a different approach. I ordered a matching coil and condenser from these guys WeSellAC.com ( http://we-sell-ac.net/) and had a contractor install. Fortunately, I knew a contractor that I trusted and he was willing to do the job for just the labor. We Sell AC.com saved me $2500 compared to the turnkey quotes I got from a couple of contractors. If you can catch them with a free shipping special you will save even more. You also save sales tax unless you live in Florida. The guys that run the company seem young and a bit flaky but if you stay on them, you will have no problem. I went with the American Standard 17 SEER 4.5 unit with two stage fan. Works great.

 

[Dawgbyte]

This is an idea I have had as well. I may give wesellac.com a call and get a price. I may have a guy that would be willing to do a job on the side.

 

[dawgstudent]

What's wrong with a Goodman?

 

[the dog is on the loose]

I built a new house two years ago (2400 sq ft downstairs and 600 sq ft bonus rm upstairs). I have a 16 seer rheems two stage. I had my house spray foamed and it only called for a 2-1/2 ton unit for downstairs. You cant get that size so I have a 3 ton. When unit is running on single stage it only pulls 5 amps measured with an amprobe. I have a mini split upstairs that I hardly ever run. Last light bill was $180. Only thing to watch for with these new setups is that with the touchscreen thermostats is that they have a humidity setting on them that you have to play with. When first installed, my unit ran and ran. My installer came out and found out that humidity setting was too low causing the unit to run to get to that desired set point. We raised it and that helped a lot. Just something to think about if you get the new setup with this option.

 

[coach66]

Years ago they were perceived as cheap junk but around 5 years ago they

changed a bunch of things and are now considered a solid brand. This is according to my builder friend.

 

[patdog]

I don't know, but 11 years old is way too early for an AC unit to be going out.

 

[Dawgbyte]

I don't know, but 11 years old is way too early for an AC unit to be going out.

I agree, 11 years is way too young to be replacing even though nearly all service companies claim if you get 10-15 years out of a unit you are doing good. No such of thing for a unit to go 20-30 years now apparently. The actual problem with mine is the compressor. I could replace it, but the kicker is my unit holds an unreal amount of freon (19lbs). By the time I replace the compressor and new freon I'd be spending about $2000 or more, which is hard to justify on an 11 year old unit.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

okay, Environment Masters game me a quote yesterday on a Lennox. I feel like I'd pay a lot for the Lennox name, but they pushed it bc they are a premier dealer for Lennox.

1. I am not an Atmos Energy customer. Assuming you ask bc I have heard they offer rebates.
2. The area this unit will serve is about 2500sf. We have a small upstairs that is run off a 2 ton heat pump unit.
3. Haven't decided what I will do yet, Lowes/Lennox has some pretty good finance options, but I may pay in full unless I go to high end.
4. Yes, the higher quotes include replacing the furnace.

Environment Masters - call Ben Nalty (owner's son). They did a great job, the crew was incredibly professional and the Lennox unit cools that part of my house like never before. I'll definitely use them again as soon as my next unit dies.

 

[coach66]

I replace two Rheem's at 10 years and have two more that are 13 years old and

both have leaking coils.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

And please don't use Lowes as a middle man. Use an HVAC company directly so you know what throat to choke if needed.

 

[dawgman42]

Not with undersized, "builder's grade" units that I've seen. In many cases, even when properly maintained, they can die in under 10 years.

 

[HotMop]

Goodman was purchased by Daikin back in 2012, since then they've undergone some decent changes but mainly in their cabinet appearance. They are considered a contractor/builder brand because they are really inexpensive, no frills units. The coils are simple enough but they are tested at a level that reliably checks a 20oz per year leak. Enough to get you about 3 years of use and out of the warranty prior to issues. To compare most top brands leak check to levels of .05 oz per year. If you get a unit that doesn't leak it will be a champ as they are really simple units. I've done 2 tear downs on Goodman unit's and both were found to be leaking Freon upon arrival.

 

[coach66]

I use Environment Masters, they do a good job.

nm

 

[coach66]

Guess I won't be replacing my other two units with Goodman's.

nm

 

[thatsbaseball]

My Goodman warranty is 10 years

 

[OleMissLogo]

1 & 4) www.atmosenergy.com/SmartChoiceMS is the link for the rebates. Up to $400 on furnace, $75 on a smart thermostat. There's a Honeywell that works with just about any system for $99 6580WF.

2) At 2500 sqft I recommend looking at Entergy Solutions rebates and get a qualifying unit. I believe 15 SEER is what they rebate on. You'd more than make up for it on the savings trying to cool such a large area.

3) Some contractors will give a small discount if you pay in full, or will add something like a couple free tuneups. Usually it is worth it if you can afford it.

 

[catvet]

Three years ago I replaced my heating and cooling with a Carrier system installed by Dent in Jackson. It has a 10 year warranty and I got the 16 SEER. My electrical Bill is now half of what it used to be. Get the highest SEER that you can afford. I have had no issues with the system. Environment masters quoted me 2500 more for the same system, so shop around.

 

[boonevilledawg]

Yes the brand bashing is major bs, it's about the product install for the most part. Go with reputable companies and stay away from fly by nights and people working out of their car.

 

[Jacknut1]

nm

Good decision. There's a reason Good(bad)mans are so cheap!

 

[Jwsjr]

Replaced a 20 year old 4 tin unit with 16 seer 5 ton unit. Cut electric bill in half during the hottest months and kept much cooler with no struggle during 100* days. Have a name to pass along but no idea where you live or how far he'll travel. He works full time for a major supplier but works on the side while he starts his own business. Saved me $3000 on my lowest quote. Don't want to post his name here but message me if you want it. I'm in Madison.

 

[Dawgbyte]

Thanks. Sent you a message.

 

[dawgoneyall]

I'm an Engineer for Trane so I am somewhat biased. But here is my take:

1. Don't buy Goodman.
2. Variable Speed compressors are coming into the market...avoid due to reliability.
3. Variable speed units are the way to go, no doubt.
4. Make sure it is not a Micro Channel coil, looks like a car radiator. These are being touted as great but they are trash being pushed by marketing while they are being engineered out.


Pick a brand with a good contractor and a 10 year warranty, pay the cost to get the 10 year if it is an upgrade if you plan on staying in your house. Capacitors are a piece of trash in newer models and no matter what brand you own they will blow. If a 20 year old comes to install your unit tell them no thanks.

Brands I'd put in my own house based on tear downs I've performed.

Daikin - huge in Asia, purchased Goodman to get into the U.S. market. Make sure it comes from overseas and not Houston. That plant is a mess.
Carrier
Trane - if purchasing a Trane unit you normally get a great contractor. American Standard is identical to Trane, it even goes down the same production line. The only difference is the sticker. Issue here is finding a good contractor.

Building my final home in a couple of years. What is your take on geothermal heat pumps. Land space will not be an issue.

 

[Ridgeland Dog]

I replaced a 10 Seer with a a 16 Seer 4 Ton unit Goodman in March with a life time compressor and heat exchange warranty for $7,300. Other quotes were much higher a lot higher. My July Entergy bill in 2015 was $320.00 and 2016 was $200.00.

 

[thatsbaseball]

We may have used the same guy