OT: Flu 2.0

[She Mate Me]

Flu shots will not guarentee you don’t get the flu. They just lesson the symptoms if you do. We have an ICU full of flu/pneumonia patients on ventilators. The best way to keep from getting it is stay away from anyone you suspect has it. It is reaching epidemic level in the delta counties and southwest MS. We have also kind of unscientifically come to the conclusion that people contract it at WalMart as that is where most of society comes into contact with one another in any geographical area. Rich/poor/Black/white. Everyone goes to Wal Mart. Wipe down buggy handles with sanitizing wipes they usually have there at the entrance. Just about every hospital in central MS is or is about to go on diversion because there just isn’t any place to put them.

I think this is wonderful advice for staying clear of the flu. I am just not trusting of the powers behind the flu vaccine industry. And it is most definitely an industry with marketers galore.

 

[MaroonNation]

Started biaxin tonight. .

Ouch! You better stock-up on toilet paper.

 

[MaroonNation]

How many of those people on vents had the flu shot?

oh, and I’ve gone to Walmart about 4 times in the last 5 years. Three of those the last 3 months.

Excellent question. Probably 75% or more had the flu shot. The problem is in populations prone to getting pneumonia you are about 100% sure to get the flu if you ever leave your home. We actually have started calling it flumonia.

I will add that we see this pattern every year out of southwest MS and the delta. We have never seen it at this level. We are even losing nurses and doctors to it this time as they are contracting it from the populations being brought in. Pretty much everyone in our ICU units now walk around with masks on all the time as we can’t trust what we were vaccinated with to do the job.

I will also add that getting the pneumococcal vaccine is just as important as getting your flu vaccine but you only have to get that every 10 years or so. If there was a push to get everyone vaccinated against pneumonia the same way they push for influenza vaccines there would be a lot less of this going around. Just about everyone here describing respiratory symptoms are describing bronchitis that has turned into pneumonia. I would love to know if they have ever been vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia.

 

[ShrubDog]

The only conspiracy is the flu shot is a scam.

I laugh at all the people I work with who get flu shots every year and get the flu every year. Then they tell me if they get the flu from me its my fault because I didn’t get a shot, I haven’t had the flu in 20 years. Seems like the people who get shots get the flu more times than the others who don’t get the shot.

 

[Grevlin]

If you have been vaccinated, but still get the flu, the flu will not be near as bad as it would have been had you not been vaccinated. I know this from personal experience.

That's the case for some people IF TPTB pick the right strain. Something like 40-60% immunity for a lot of people the years the strain in the vaccine matches the strain going around. Even then some people don't develop immunity even after the vaccine.

This year, since the wrong strain was picked, the vaccine will do you no good at all.

 

[MaroonNation]

All you have to do is tell them you aren’t taking it for religious reasons

 

[johnson86-1]

My 2 year old son and I both yacked for a couple days after weeks of the crud. Doctor told us it’s a 24 hour bug. Didn’t explain the flu like symptoms.

A day after getting over the ****, day of my son’s birthday party, rest of the House is hugging the throne- as well as 4 other kids on the street. **** is nasty this year.

Is throwing up typical of the flu? I thought it was more fever and ache and lethargy. The only time I've had the flu, I didn't throw up I don't think (been a while, so maybe i'm mistaken). I did lay around the house for almost a week. Never had anything like it before or since.

 

[Dawgbite]

Excellent question. Probably 75% or more had the flu shot. The problem is in populations prone to getting pneumonia you are about 100% sure to get the flu if you ever leave your home. We actually have started calling it flumonia.

I will add that we see this pattern every year out of southwest MS and the delta. We have never seen it at this level. We are even losing nurses and doctors to it this time as they are contracting it from the populations being brought in. Pretty much everyone in our ICU units now walk around with masks on all the time as we can’t trust what we were vaccinated with to do the job.

I will also add that getting the pneumococcal vaccine is just as important as getting your flu vaccine but you only have to get that every 10 years or so. If there was a push to get everyone vaccinated against pneumonia the same way they push for influenza vaccines there would be a lot less of this going around. Just about everyone here describing respiratory symptoms are describing bronchitis that has turned into pneumonia. I would love to know if they have ever been vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia.

I have never had the pneumococcal vaccine and have yet to get the flu vaccine because I have been sick for a month. The funny thing about what I have is that it's not in my lungs, it's in my throat. It feels like somebody is chocking me to death. Both trips to the Dr, he said he could hear no congestion in my lungs either time. This isn't my normal fall chest cold that I have every year. I don't know what it is but it won't let go.

 

[She Mate Me]

I will also add that getting the pneumococcal vaccine is just as important as getting your flu vaccine but you only have to get that every 10 years or so. If there was a push to get everyone vaccinated against pneumonia the same way they push for influenza vaccines there would be a lot less of this going around. Just about everyone here describing respiratory symptoms are describing bronchitis that has turned into pneumonia. I would love to know if they have ever been vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia.

This seems like advice worth considering strongly. Thanks.

 

[Wizard of bulldogery]

What about medical grade herb edibles? is that a good preventative measure, asking for a friend

 

[MaroonNation]

Then you probably have strep throat that will turn into bronchitis that develops into pneumonia and possibly influenza. Have they swabbed you for strep?

 

[Raiderdawg.sixpack]

Always be skeptical when big, big money is at stake. Every other year is a dangerous mutant new flu strain? Really?

I have never understood this.

First, vaccines are not the big money maker. Pharmaceutical compainies would make a lot more money if you get sick and they treat the sickness - not prevent the illness.

Second, your understanding of influenza mutations is off. Influenza has 8 segments to its genome. There are multiple versions of each segment. In an overly simplistic way of saying it, if different versions of flu infect the same animal they can shuffle segments. If the shuffling comes up with a version that can infect humans and is different enough from what humans have been vaccinated against or exposed to, it can have dire consequences.

That's why the 1918 flu was so bad. It really isn't special influenza, it was just a shuffle that most humans had never been exposed to at the time. That's why so many died.

When I say there are a lot of versions of flu, I was at an entity with 5,000+ distinct versions of flu. Not only can you have this shuffling, but the segments can have mutations in them as well. If it accumulates enough mutations, your body may not recognize it and it can infect. The good thing is most versions can't make the proteins needed to infect humans.

That's why you need a flu vaccine every year where as a non-segmented virus is easier to vaccinate against.


I go into high containment labs all the time. I am more scared of a pandemic caused by the wrong shuffle of influenza than I am of Ebola, hemorrhagic fevers, Anthrax, plaque or just about any other infectious virus or bacteria.

 

[Tigr2ndbase]

My wife and I have been battling crud for over a month. Finally got put on levaquin and that seems to be working. Went trough tamiflu, antibiotics, etc before finally being put on it. Only thing that worked for us.

 

[bulldogcountry1]

With a few on here high post count just proves to me they have nothing to say, but really think others need their opinion.

** = sarcasm

 

[She Mate Me]

I have never understood this.

First, vaccines are not the big money maker. Pharmaceutical compainies would make a lot more money if you get sick and they treat the sickness - not prevent the illness.

Second, your understanding of influenza mutations is off. Influenza has 8 segments to its genome. There are multiple versions of each segment. In an overly simplistic way of saying it, if different versions of flu infect the same animal they can shuffle segments. If the shuffling comes up with a version that can infect humans and is different enough from what humans have been vaccinated against or exposed to, it can have dire consequences.

That's why the 1918 flu was so bad. It really isn't special influenza, it was just a shuffle that most humans had never been exposed to at the time. That's why so many died.

When I say there are a lot of versions of flu, I was at an entity with 5,000+ distinct versions of flu. Not only can you have this shuffling, but the segments can have mutations in them as well. If it accumulates enough mutations, your body may not recognize it and it can infect. The good thing is most versions can't make the proteins needed to infect humans.

That's why you need a flu vaccine every year where as a non-segmented virus is easier to vaccinate against.


I go into high containment labs all the time. I am more scared of a pandemic caused by the wrong shuffle of influenza than I am of Ebola, hemorrhagic fevers, Anthrax, plaque or just about any other infectious virus or bacteria.

I appreciate the information and you obviously work in the field and have a great deal of knowledge.

That said, there is a massive amount of information (JAMA) out now which clearly states that the advice to people over 65 to get the flu shot annually was and is unnecessary and possibly dangerous depending on individual circumstances. Am I to simply trust the same system that gave this bad advice with impunity without credible proof it was good advice?

My point is that an individual's health is most important to that individual, and is their responsibility. Do your own research and absolutely get the shot if you decide it's best for you, but do the research. I don't trust one size fits all medical care and we get a whole lot of that in the current mess of a system we have. Annual flu vaccines are the ultimate one size fits all solution.

I would also submit that working with pathogens on a daily basis as you seem to, might make you more sensitive to their danger than the reality of the death statistics dictates.

Edited to add link to the study which, by most accounts, surprised those researchers conducting it because they had to conclude they could not correlate increasing vaccination coverage after 1980 (when it began being pushed) with declining mortality rates in any age group. Just read the short conclusion if you have any interest...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486407

 

[BlueRidgeMtns]

a/s/l?**

 

[Raiderdawg.sixpack]

I appreciate the information and you obviously work in the field and have a great deal of knowledge.

That said, there is a massive amount of information (JAMA) out now which clearly states that the advice to people over 65 to get the flu shot annually was and is unnecessary and possibly dangerous depending on individual circumstances. Am I to simply trust the same system that gave this bad advice with impunity without credible proof it was good advice?

My point is that an individual's health is most important to that individual, and is their responsibility. Do your own research and absolutely get the shot if you decide it's best for you, but do the research. I don't trust one size fits all medical care and we get a whole lot of that in the current mess of a system we have. Annual flu vaccines are the ultimate one size fits all solution.

I would also submit that working with pathogens on a daily basis as you seem to, might make you more sensitive to their danger than the reality of the death statistics dictates.

I can agree with most of what you said.

Especially with elderly care. The 65+ population has a higher likelihood of immune dysfunction and underlying conditions that could cause adverse reactions to a systemic immune response, which a vaccine is designed to cause. I agree, more studies need to be conducted with all populations and people need to have a better understanding of their personal health. A good MD should be able to advise if a person is healthy enough for an medication, vaccine or otherwise. Blindly taking any medicine or vaccine without understanding your health or your physician not understanding your complete health can lead to really bad, preventable outcomes.

I'm really hopeful the universal vaccine for flu is real. There is some in clinical trials starting up that could lead to that in the future. No more annual shot, just a 3 shot series in childhood and done.

MDR-TB scares me more than flu, simply because it is here. With flu, we are probably more likely to get hit with a truly devasting avian influenza that wipes out so much polutry in the U.S. we end up with chicken breasts costing $15-20 per pound.

 

[ShrubDog]

That's why you need a flu vaccine every year where as a non-segmented virus is easier to vaccinate against.

You sound educated in regards to flu vaccines. They say this years vaccine may only be 10% effective, thats not real effective. This year is no exception.

Why do you suggest people get a flu shot every year? We have no idea what strains will be going around and people are injecting themselves with something that will not create the right antibodies.

 

[Wizard of bulldogery]

I appreciate the information and you obviously work in the field and have a great deal of knowledge.

That said, there is a massive amount of information (JAMA) out now which clearly states that the advice to people over 65 to get the flu shot annually was and is unnecessary and possibly dangerous depending on individual circumstances. Am I to simply trust the same system that gave this bad advice with impunity without credible proof it was good advice?

My point is that an individual's health is most important to that individual, and is their responsibility. Do your own research and absolutely get the shot if you decide it's best for you, but do the research. I don't trust one size fits all medical care and we get a whole lot of that in the current mess of a system we have. Annual flu vaccines are the ultimate one size fits all solution.

I would also submit that working with pathogens on a daily basis as you seem to, might make you more sensitive to their danger than the reality of the death statistics dictates.

Edited to add link to the study which, by most accounts, surprised those researchers conducting it because they had to conclude they could not correlate increasing vaccination coverage after 1980 (when it began being pushed) with declining mortality rates in any age group. Just read the short conclusion if you have any interest...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486407

I'm not medical expert... but that study is 12 years old and involved patients from 1980-2001. I believe it is a little outdated. Just get the fricken shot it is free

 

[FleaFlicker]

This should clear up treatmentTarget groups for therapy●Given the concerning trends of increasing resistance with both the adamantanes and the neuraminidase inhibitors, the risk of promoting antiviral drug resistance should be considered when deciding which patients to treat. Individuals with severe disease (requiring hospitalization or evidence of lower respiratory tract infection) or at high risk for complications should receive antiviral therapy. (See 'Target populations for treatment' above.)
●When indicated, antiviral therapy should be initiated as soon as possible since antiviral therapy is most likely to provide benefit when initiated within the first 48 hours of illness. Treatment should not be delayed while awaiting the results of diagnostic testing, nor should it be withheld in patients with indications for therapy who present >48 hours after the onset of symptoms, particularly among patients requiring hospitalization. Furthermore, patients who have a negative rapid antigen test for influenza but in whom the clinical suspicion for influenza infection is high should be treated with antivirals since the sensitivity of these tests may be low. (See 'Timing of antiviral initiation' above.)
●We recommend antiviral therapy (with zanamivir or oseltamivir) for all individuals with confirmed or suspected influenza virus infection who are severely ill, such as those with lower respiratory tract infection (eg, dyspnea, tachypnea, unexplained oxygen desaturation), and those who are showing signs of rapid clinical deterioration; we recommend treatment for such patients whether they present early in the course of infection (<48 hours after symptom onset) (Grade 1B) or later (Grade 1C). (See 'Indications for treatment' above.)
●We recommend antiviral therapy for outpatients who present within 48 hours of symptom onset with confirmed or suspected influenza infection and who are at increased risk for complications (Grade 1A). We also recommend antiviral therapy for outpatients who present >48 hours after symptom onset with confirmed or suspected influenza infection and who are at increased risk for complications provided that they are not yet improving (Grade 1C). (See 'Indications for treatment' above.)
●We suggest antiviral therapy for patients who present within 48 hours of symptom onset with mild illness and who are not at increased risk for complications (Grade 2C). There is high quality evidence for benefit to the individual patient; however, there is only low quality evidence regarding the magnitude of the risk of promoting resistance, which remains a major concern. Additionally, when supplies are limited, antivirals should be reserved for high-risk patients. (See 'Indications for treatment' above.)
●We recommend that patients with uncomplicated influenza who have had more than 48 hours of influenza signs and symptoms not be treated with antivirals (Grade 1B). (See 'Indications for treatment' above.)
●We suggest treating all pregnant women with suspected or confirmed influenza, even those who present >48 hours after onset of symptom onset provided that they are not yet improving (Grade 2C). (See 'Pregnancy' above and "Influenza and pregnancy", section on 'Treatment'.)
Choice of antiviral agent
●Clinicians should review local or state influenza surveillance data during influenza season to determine which types of influenza (A or B) and subtypes of influenza A (H1N1 or H3N2) are circulating, as well as antiviral resistance patterns. (See 'Choice of antiviral drug' above and 'Influenza activity' above.)
●A neuraminidase inhibitor (zanamivir or oseltamivir) is the recommended antiviral agent for the treatment of patients with influenza infection (table 2). Patients who cannot receive zanamivir or oseltamivir (eg, those who cannot tolerate inhaled or enteral agents) should receive intravenous (IV) peramivir. (See 'Choice of antiviral drug' above.)
●The recommended dose of zanamivir is 10 mg (two inhalations) twice daily; the recommended dose of oseltamivir is 75 mg orally twice daily; the recommended dose of peramivir is 600 mg IV as a single dose. Dosing of oseltamivir and peramivir must be modified in the setting of renal insufficiency. The recommended duration of therapy for zanamivir or oseltamivir is five days. (See 'Choice of antiviral drug' above.)
●Because of the high rates of influenza isolates resistant to adamantanes in the United States and in many other countries, amantadine and rimantadine are not recommended for the treatment of influenza. (See 'Choice of antiviral drug' above.)
Also, Take the FLU SHOT unless contraindicated.

As far as side effects to tamiflu- those effects are less than 1%
Adverse Reactions
>10%:Central nervous system: Headache (adolescents and adults: 2% to 17%)Gastrointestinal: Vomiting (2% to 16%)1% to 10%:Central nervous system: Pain (adolescents and adults: 4%)Gastrointestinal: Nausea (adolescents and adults: 8% to 10%)<1%, postmarketing, and/or case reports: Abnormal behavior, abnormal hepatic function tests, accidental injury, agitation, anaphylactoid reaction, anaphylaxis, anxiety, cardiac arrhythmia, confusion, delirium, delusions, dermatitis, eczema, erythema multiforme, exacerbation of diabetes mellitus, facial edema, gastrointestinal hemorrhage, hallucination, hemorrhagic colitis, hepatitis, hypersensitivity reaction, hypothermia, impaired consciousness, nightmares, seizure, skin rash, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, swollen tongue, toxic epidermal necrolysis, urticaria

Great. Here's a credible link with some crucial information that is unbiased and not funded by the pharmaceutical company (Roche) that makes Tamiflu.They have made over $18 Billion dollar profit on the drug since 1999. I'm not going to copy and paste the article here, but I will agree to disagree about Tamiflu.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375804/

 

[She Mate Me]

I'm not medical expert... but that study is 12 years old and involved patients from 1980-2001. I believe it is a little outdated. Just get the fricken shot it is free

The study's valid. You're welcome to get the shot. I'm gonna continue to skip it.

 

[MaroonNation]

Only if you are dying from cancer

 

[bsquared24]

Some good advice in this thread but I don't think one persons experience translates to the entire population re: vaccines. Like tons of other things some people are more predisposed than others. Not an option for all but my CPAP for apnea does an awesome job of minimizing drainage and waking up with a cough. If you can score one of those you might solve some of your non-flu issues.

 

[grinnindawg]

We are 2 for 2 with our sons on Tamiflu symptoms.

Younger son: Started on Tamiflu twice within 24h of symptoms.
Both times transitioned from (have the flu, but reasonably functional) to (have the flu, feel much worse and now vomiting every few minutes)
First time we continued forcing the wonder drug on the kid for a day.
Stop Tamiflu, symptoms stop within a few hours.
Second time within an hour or 2 of first dose he went from sitting playing video game to curling up in a ball on the floor when he wasn't hurling.
Stopped, 3 hours later and he's back to not feeling well, but not on the verge of us running him to the ER.

Older son: Started Tamiflu within 48h of symptoms.
See above for symptoms.
Goes from his completely stoic personality when he's well or sick to an emotional wreck.
He's a rule follower, so it took a day or 2 to finally get him to stop taking Tamiflu, nausea and basket case gone in a few hours.

Perhaps it's genetic, but Tamiflu did not help in any of the 3 cases.
The wife had to go take care of older son for a couple of days at school.
Not because of the flu, but because of the emotional stuff.

I know a person or 2 who say they think it's helped, but there is a possibly dangerous downside.

 

[SaintsDoc]

Great. Here's a credible link with some crucial information that is unbiased and not funded by the pharmaceutical company (Roche) that makes Tamiflu.They have made over $18 Billion dollar profit on the drug since 1999. I'm not going to copy and paste the article here, but I will agree to disagree about Tamiflu.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375804/[/QUOTE
right; very credible. I think I'll stick with the CDC over the Indian pharmacologic society.

 

[Raiderdawg.sixpack]

You sound educated in regards to flu vaccines. They say this years vaccine may only be 10% effective, thats not real effective. This year is no exception.

Why do you suggest people get a flu shot every year? We have no idea what strains will be going around and people are injecting themselves with something that will not create the right antibodies.

Because influenza can kill healthy people. Estimates are that at least 12,000 people die annually in the US, and as high as 56,000 died in the 2012-2013 reporting year. We have already had 5 children die this year (that we know of) due to complications with pediatric influenza.

So if there is a way that might lessen our chance to contract or the negative outcomes of influenza, I am going to make sure my family takes advantage.

The best ancedotal advice for the flu shot. I work in a different division, but I work with 3 former Influenza Division folks that are flu experts. I have talked with Yoshiro Kawaoka and other leading influenza experts. They all get the flu shot and make sure their kids get the flu shot.

 

[patdog]

We have no idea what strains will be going around

Most years we do have a pretty good idea what strains will be going around. Occasionally, there will be a new mutation between the time the vaccines go into production and flu season and that 1 year in 5 is the one that makes the headlines. But the other 4 years, it's pretty straightforward. We identify what strains will circulate the next year, produce the vaccine, and save a bunch of lives.

Don't know why I'm wasting my time posting though. I know the anti-vaxxers will continue to get their health information from Jenny McCarthy.

 

[ShrubDog]

Whatever man. Like I said I haven’t had the flu in 20 years and I’m not getting a vaccine for the hell of it.

This years vaccine may only be 10% effective and last years was 40%, if that is even the truth. 2014-2015 was 23%...yeah they really nailed down the strains.

It’s my choice to eat healthy and take supplements so my body can fight off things naturally. If I get sick I will seek medical attention. Having someone inject me with the CDC’s magic potion every year for a lifetime is not for me and my family.

 

[patdog]

It’s my choice to eat healthy and take supplements so my body can fight off things naturally.

Yeah, about those supplements, they're not really helping you and if anything, are more dangerous than the vaccines you're not taking because there's absolutely no oversight or control over what's in them. But carry on.

 

[ShrubDog]

Don’t worry man I will carry on for sure because they have changed my life and I’m healthier than I have ever been. I have specific needs and a specialist helps me with a plan.

What I don’t need is a flu shot every year because it doesn’t fit my needs. Bombarding my immune system with worthless antibodies doesn’t seem great. Im sorry if you get upset cause Im not mainstream enough.

I have no problem with you or anyone else injecting yourself with a flu vaccine every year if you think it helps, knock yourself out and don’t worry about what I do.