Look, until proven otherwise, UConn is a better job than Rutgers. That's just reality. We have a much harder path to just get to the NCAA Tournament because of the league we are in and the traditions and vastly superior facilities and resources our direct league competitors have. We hope that with new leadership in the AD's office and on the sidelines that we can build a winning tradition but it hasn't been demonstrated yet. UConn Basketball has a winning brand name and plays in a solid albeit flawed basketball conference that can provide a path to NCAA tournament success with the right leader. It will never be 1996 again but UConn's demise has been greatly exaggerated in my opinion.
OT: Dan Hurley to Uconn
- Thread starter Zak57
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I don't agree with your point that UCONN is a better job than Rutgers. Not now , but I agree in years past. Part of the past allure of the UCONN job was that it was a great program under Calhoun in a great conference , the old Big East. UCONN received plenty of media attention with so many traditional east coast powers in the Big East but that's no longer the case in the AAC. The AAC is a hodge podge conference with decent basketball but little if any national appeal . Moreover UCONN is facing possible NCAA sanctions and in a down cycle with little prospect for next year.. Add to that uncertainty as to whether UCONN will eventually leave for another better conference.
Rutgers has a higher ceiling. UConn still a better program. UConn could be back in the NCAA Tournament in two years and almost nobody would be surprised because...It's UConn.
People don't yet appreciate how the lack of conference money will crimp these non-power five programs in the years to come. It's not about what happened today, or yesterday, but what's happening tomorrow. When a school like Rutgers will make + 40 million more annually from conference payouts, compared to uconn, SH, or whoever, and thus can get better assistant coaches, better facilities, you'll start to see tangible results in recruiting, on the field/court ect. There's always been a discrepancy, but that discrepancy in the last year or so, with the new media contracts, has become huge. I just don't see how those schools can keep up.
Which prime time games?? Uconn vs Tulane, ECU or UCF?? Uconn will never sniff getting into a P-5 conference until they show they can bring their share of revenue to the conference table. Their mythical NYC fans are just that and they don't have the cable boxes in Hartford to make a difference.
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The casual basketball fan nationally is going to turn on UConn versus anybody before a RU game. You're in the right conference, but you have to start winning. I like Pikiel as a coach, but at some point he has to put up some results that are worthy of attracting a national audience. UConn will have a few 00C games that will garner a prime time spot. There's no debating UConn is a better job right now. Maybe that will change in the future, but I don't live in the "land of hopefully's and maybe's". Show me.
What facts lead you to believe that they are getting into the p5 or the BE anytime soon? I certainly havent seen any. All the reports point to the exact opposite.
Facts? It's a message board… LOL. Seriously though, most people think there will be another wave of moves in the next few years. They screwed themselves this time around but they do have some marketable attributes.
I agreed with you on your previous post but not this one...they really do not have enough marketable attributes to get in a power 5 conference...Big East is their ceiling....their football is a non starter for any league..why would Clemson/FSU want a drag like UConn on their football schedule
Yes, but we will always be competing for a bid with the other programs that are in the Big Ten! We need to be able to beat the other teams in our own league that not only will be getting that same money but have tons more. UConn just needs to beat out the other teams in its league to get to March. And being able to get to March Madness is what coaches and recruits care about. Being in a filthy rich league and finishing last and never having March success does not make a job better than one in a "lesser" league. Now, let's hope we're not always 14th but, as I said, until we're not, we are what we are.
There is a possibility of UConn to the Big East if they want to drop their FB Program to Independent status. Being that their FB is so irrelevant now as is and the revenue stream from the AAC has to be minimal, I think there is a very good possibility of this occurring and if UConn asked,the BE would jump thru hoops as would UConn to regain prominence in its primary sport. It's a win win for both and I'm sure they had some type of prior prelim talks on this matter. Jerry Carino said the possibility of this happening is 50-50.
I believe it when I see it. I just can't see RU rising above UCONN,SHU, Villanova for many years to come.
The revenue stream from the BE is less than the revenue stream from the AAC. UConn would be giving up conference money if they made that move.
Plus it would cost them even more to support an independent football program or to drop their football to FCS.
The discrepancy between the haves and have nots has sky rocketed in the last year or so with the new media contracts. We are only starting to see the implications. Heck, even some assistant football coaches in the SEC are making $ 1 mill +. As more conference money bleeds into the basketball programs of the power five, funding better assistant coaches, facilities, ect., that will have a tangible result on the court. As a result, more at large bids will go to the power five. It will be harder for a BE or AAC team to make the tournament who doesn't win their conference. That's the future.
Consider the numbers and you can't reach any other conclusion. An SEC school, for example, gets about 45 million from the conference, not even counting the bowl money. A BE school gets about 4.25 million -- that about 10%. The AAC get what? About 3 million. It will be interesting to see what the new numbers are for the AAC when they negotiate a new contract for circa 2020, but those discrepancies mean something.
UCONN did what they had to do, but their conference affiliation is still a ball and chain. There's always been an arms race in college athletics, but that arm's race is about to explode, funded by all this new conference money. I question whether the AAC schools (and BE) can keep up. Someday, a decade or so hither, it may be that only the winner of the AAC makes the tournament.
the BE and influence of high mid major is not going anywhere in college hoops. Their demise was written about in the 80s. You only need to see Loyola having a shot to make the Final 4 as proof of that and if they and Nova are in that makes two non D1A level football schools in the final 4.
Your premise I just think is wrong. BE got 6 schools this year. You are thinking of this in terms of football and not hoops, different story. The arms race has always been there. Just because Rutgers gets $40 million does not mean they will be more successful in hoops than a Big East school. If that was true Penn State would have long ago been the dominant team in the East. Alot more factors go into it than money. The Big East didnt suffer much drop off after realignment, was I surprised? yes but I was wrong. They have survived it and now formed a little niche for themselves. They are not outside the Power 5, they are part of it. They are not going anywhere, neither is the success of smaller schools in the NCAA tournament
Your premise I just think is wrong. BE got 6 schools this year. You are thinking of this in terms of football and not hoops, different story. The arms race has always been there. Just because Rutgers gets $40 million does not mean they will be more successful in hoops than a Big East school. If that was true Penn State would have long ago been the dominant team in the East. Alot more factors go into it than money. The Big East didnt suffer much drop off after realignment, was I surprised? yes but I was wrong. They have survived it and now formed a little niche for themselves. They are not outside the Power 5, they are part of it. They are not going anywhere, neither is the success of smaller schools in the NCAA tournament
You may very well be correct, but there's never been this great of a financial divide, and as such, I'm not sure you can draw anything from the past. If Seton Hall, hypothetically, is spending 4 million on its' basketball program, and at the same time Rutgers is spending 15 million -- and these are very reasonable numbers to assume -- RU will pay its' coaches better, more money into facilities, better (legal) perks for the athletes, ect., ect., ect., and over time that will have an effect. What happened in the past is I believe irrelevant because college athletics has never seen such a great disparity between the haves and the have nots. And so my theory goes that over the years you'll see a shift in at large bids going to more of the money conferences. The SEC is illustrative. As their conference money has expanded, they've put more into their basketball programs, and this year they've sent eight teams to the tournament. I don't think that's a total coincidence. We'll see.
Addendum -- Curiosity drove me to some research. According to UCONN documents circa 2015, they spent approx. $ 9 million on their mens BB program which grossed $11 million in revenue. The woman's BB program did not make money. It was anticipated that 1/2 of their 80 million athletic budget by 2017 would be subsidized by student fees ect.. We know what that is like. Consider this, their AAC payout barely covers Hurley's salary. Anyway, they (and similar schools) appear to be in dire financial straights concerning athletics unless something changes. Glad we have a solution for our budget.
I also read somewhere that BE schools spend 7-8 million a year on average on their mens BB programs. That was the highest, on average, of all conferences. Will they maintain that position? Maybe for the BE schools, that don't fund as many sports, they can maintain this arms race, but I envision this "arms race" will explode to a whole new level in the years to come. Maybe after a certain point money has diminishing returns on BB programs? I don't know, but watch the SEC schools; I anticipate those schools starting to outspend the competition on their programs.
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You have the numbers reversed.
For the fiscal year ending June 30, 2016, most AAC schools received higher conference distributions than most Big East Schools.
UCF $3.5 MM
Cinci $9.5 MM
UConn $10.5 MM
ECU $3.6 MM
Houston $7.2 MM
Memphis $4.7 MM
USF $9.1 MM
SMU $3.6 MM
Temple $4.6 MM
Tulane $4.0 MM
Tulsa $4.7 MM
Navy $2.8 MM
Only Navy earned less than $3.5 MM
Depaul $2.4 MM
St Johns $2.4 MM
SHU $3.0 MM
Georgetown $2.4 MM
Prov $2.9 MM
Marq $2.4 MM
Villanova $4.9 MM
Creighton $2.3 MM
Xavier $3.0 MM
Only Villanova earned more than $3.0 MM
Was finishing reading this thread so I could post something similar. Hoops is a different animal. The FBI thing could have a bigger influence then the $ arms race. UCONN can do fine in winning their conference and making the tourney each year.
I still believe that an all sport d1 football school sits in cat birds seat--big deal ,every so often a non d1 school gets to final 4 --out of how many? and there are always specific circumstances--money and prestige do matter especially over time
The issue is the financial divide in the past hasn't been as great. In the fiscal year ending June 2011, 7 years ago before the latest round of reorganization, The ACC/P10/B12 distributed between $9-12MM to members. The B10 and SEC has started to pull away with distributions in the $20MM range. The Big East distributed $4MM to BB-only schools and $9MM to FB/BB schools, which was competitive with the ACC/P10/B12. So BE BB schools were receiving about 1/3-1/2 of the lower P5 conferences and 1/5 of the upper P5 conferences. That allowed them to remain competitive in basketball.
Into the future, you are looking at BE BB schools receiving 1/5-1/6 of the lower P5 conferences and 1/10-1/12 of the upper conferences. Even though those P5 conferences will spend more money on FB than BB, the gap for the BE is so great that BE schools will struggle to compete financially.
And that financial gap will make it harder for the BE to hire and retain top coaches. So while Jay Wright isn't likely to leave Villanova, most other schools in the Big East will need to find financial resource to hire new coaches in the next few years (Xavier might be looking for new coach in the next few weeks).
Interestingly, the BE (and B12) spend the most $$, on average, on their mens BB programs, of any conference -- about 8-9 million a year. I found that surprising. If that data is correct, maybe money matters more then you realize. If they (BE, UCONN, ect.) suddenly drop from top spenders to mid level spenders, will that not effect the results on the court, in the tournament, ect.? That's my point. The rich conferences have had such a sudden influx of new money with the recent media deals, maybe the UCONN and BE schools will not be able to keep up. They've kept up so far by apparently funding their programs at a top level, but can that continue when the top level is stretched upward. We'll see.
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Thanks for posting, but does not take into account the money the Big East gets from Fox? That TV money is much, much more ( somewhere between three and 4 million per team) than any of the other non-P5 conferences.
This takes into account every dollar the Big East receives, from any source, and distributes to the member schools. This is taken from the Big East's IRS filings. It includes money from Fox, the NCAA, ticket sales for the BET, etc. Everything.
Been reading about the demise of the NBE for that last 5 years on this board and the conference has gotten stronger not weaker. I believe Bac is correct and appreciate his mea culpa on the subject.
Ok, thanks. Just trying to understand the numbers. So the AAC numbers include any football money they receive as well, correct?
how is the BE going to drop..they have a lucrative tv deal and that is going nowhere, you would be surprised how schools piss alot of money, I expect that to continue. Football will continue to be overfunded at virtually every Power 5 school, thats where it goes, not hoops. Pac 12 is perfect example of a conference making alot of money I would consider it a clear 6th now in hoops
I generally agree with you Bac. There has been a substantial divide financially between football schools and basketball only schools for years. It has not impacted the performance of the basketball only schools, and I do not envision any material difference in the near future.
Yes. All money. The money UConn gets is for BB, WBB, FB, and all other sports it plays in the AAC.
Perception matters and the won/loss record along with post season bids matters far more than being 14th in a power conference.
Good discussion. I think you also need to factor in that football drives the bus in the P5 conferences. Size matters and the football program is always going to get the lion share of the substantial monies they get. An AD is not just going to toss an extra $5 million to the basketball program that the
That's what I figured. The advantage the BE has right now is that the FOX money dwarfs what the AAC, A-10 and other non-P5 schools get. So while BE schools get less than those AAC schools, they also don't have the burden of the expenses which are significant. At the end of the day, the BE will go only as far as it continues to be an attractive TV product (see FOX money). That helps the schools pay for the coaches and as you know, if you can attract/retain coaches, you'll get the players and the BE has a different value proposition than the P5 schools...enough of one to attract players who are seeking what it has to offer. Time will tell, but getting 6 teams in the NCAA every year (out of 10) is a good start (although Xavier put up a stinker this year).
Can't see UConn dropping football , completely or to FCS status , and joining the Big East because of basketball.
Don't think they could make enough money to offset ending a FBS football program and making it on the FCS level and find a conference for it to join . Going Independent would be financially impossible .
The AAC is a pretty good basketball conference, not as good as the Big East, and
I think UConn isn't really interested in becoming a BE member and will stay where their at because of AAC football .
Big 12 or ACC would be a different story, but don't see that happening either.
Don't think they could make enough money to offset ending a FBS football program and making it on the FCS level and find a conference for it to join . Going Independent would be financially impossible .
The AAC is a pretty good basketball conference, not as good as the Big East, and
I think UConn isn't really interested in becoming a BE member and will stay where their at because of AAC football .
Big 12 or ACC would be a different story, but don't see that happening either.
You say there is “no debating” yet here we are debating. Puzzling.
Agreed. That’s because most casual fans don’t take into consideration the huge costs of maintaining a Power 5 athletic department. I’m a huge fan of college football but it’s a tremendous money drain on most Power 5 programs.
Doubtful
You are delusion
When were we in a NIT besides March Madness
Every player we get is an all star but the experts have a way a year later that it was a bust recruit
I am waiting the verdict on Kiss after a game or two
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