OT: Bourbon/Whiskey

[Upstream]

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Its no different in the beer industry.

Like the beer industry, craft distilleries will impact growth for the giants. But it won't put them out of business. For all the great craft beers out there, one of five beers sold at retail is a Bud Light.

I have half empty bottle of Knob Creek on my bar, and it won't be long until it is empty. But I also have several bottles of craft bourbons and ryes. (I've learned to avoid ryes from Indiana like Bulliett, because most come from the old Seagrams distillary, and they all taste the same. If you are looking for an excellent rye, I recommend Dad's Hat from Pennsylvania. If you see it at a bar, order it in a Manhattan.)

The advantage craft breweries have over craft distilleries is the breweries can start selling product within days of starting production. A craft distillery selling 7 year old bourbon has to wait 7 years to sell their first bottle.

 

[scarletrider]

You must have a hell of a tolerance! Do you buy it by the case?

I'm partial to the Glenmorangie Port Wood myself.

haha. i wasn't trying to imply that i down 1.75L everyday. i was trying to say that that's what i buy for economical reasons. i typically buy one or two of those each month at my local store for around $50 each and i think that is a good deal.

for glenmorangie, i like the original and 18 year. i am not too crazy about their santa and other sweeter varieties.

i also second blantons, mitchter's, knob creek, makers mark, woodford reserve, four roses, in that order.

 

[kupuna133]

About the same as my take on the PVW mythology. The only difference is that the Hirsch stuff was pretty small batch to begin with (400 barrels, as I recall), so there was probably a little more care in its construct than is the case with PVH, which is basically just Buffalo Trace left in barrels for a really long time. So it probably tastes "better". Does it taste the better part of 3 large worth of better? Sure, if somebody else is paying the bill.

A cautionary note, though, on "old bourbons". Bourbon left on the wood longer than about 12 years is a waste of good alcohol. You see very old single malt scotches that have great character, but they come about it differently. Bourbon is aged in barrels that are, by law, no larger than 53 gallons and that's the size that all the volume producers use. Scotch is aged in casks which can be as large as 350 gallons. So the amount of "wood" (all the various tannins and vanillins and other flavors imparted thereby) that gets into the spirit is a LOT greater over any given amount of time for American whiskey than scotch. Anything left in 53 gallon barrel longer than a dozen years is going to taste, first and foremost, like charred oak and very little else.

Thanks for the reply.

I was at a Bourbon tasting at Blue Smoke in NYC many years ago and tasted many of the PVW's and was not all that impressed. Don't get me wrong they are delicious but there are better options at a much lower price point. I am more of a jeffersons, Blaintons guy.
I won a bottle of AH Hirsch in a bet 10 years ago when the thing was selling at the $300-500 range. I have seen the prices sky rocket in the auction market topping well over $1k.

 

[scarletrider]

if you like high west, try their double rye. it's pretty good.

i haven't seen anyone mention Jack Daniel single barrel. good stuff.

for irish whiskey, i like the red breast the best.

a couple of years ago some publications were ranking yamazaki as the #1 that year. i tried the 12 year and 18. they were good, not sure if i'd agree with the #1 rating that year.

 

[RU4Real]

The advantage craft breweries have over craft distilleries is the breweries can start selling product within days of starting production. A craft distillery selling 7 year old bourbon has to wait 7 years to sell their first bottle.

Very true, which is why you see two things happening in the craft space (not counting buying aged product from MGP and selling it as your own, which I disapprove of and would never do).

You're seeing an increase in shelf space devoted to "white" products. Rye mash and bourbon mash, unaged. It's easy enough to pull half of your product for immediate bottling to generate some cash flow while you're waiting for the other half to age out.

The other thing you're seeing is a rise in popularity of "baby bourbon". The "in" thing to do in the baby space is to hand-label the age statement right on the bottle. "This bourbon aged 4 months".

It seems laughable, at first. It's not. Barrel aging is a geometrically diminishing proposition. Most of the wood is imparted pretty early on in the process, and the effect degrades considerably over time. I've demonstrated myself that with a heavy char and a small barrel, you can turn out a year-old product that tastes better than any 4 year mainstream product on the market.

There are two other "tricks" to enhance taste over shorter intervals. The first is barrel variation - starting out with a new, charred oak barrel and finishing in a barrel that previously held another spirit - rum, for example (Balvenie Caribbean Cask) or sherry, port or any of the red wines. You can mix and match barrels and get some really unique and delightful notes in the finished product.

The second one is a secret that I'm keeping to myself for now.

 

[RU4Real]

Thanks for the reply.

I was at a Bourbon tasting at Blue Smoke in NYC many years ago and tasted many of the PVW's and was not all that impressed. Don't get me wrong they are delicious but there are better options at a much lower price point. I am more of a jeffersons, Blaintons guy.
I won a bottle of AH Hirsch in a bet 10 years ago when the thing was selling at the $300-500 range. I have seen the prices sky rocket in the auction market topping well over $1k.

I split a bottle of Jefferson Ocean with my brother-in-law last year. It was okay. The gimmick doesn't quite make it to the palate, though. It's more like, "Decent bourbon. Cool story, bro."

Hirsch 16 is currently going for about $2700 a bottle. It's a unique story and a unique bourbon. As for the PVWs, it really is just Buffalo Trace left on the wood - they use the exact same distillate for both products. If you want PVW, buy a barrel of BT and leave it in your garage for 10 years.

 

[Zak57]

I split a bottle of Jefferson Ocean with my brother-in-law last year. It was okay. The gimmick doesn't quite make it to the palate, though. It's more like, "Decent bourbon. Cool story, bro."

Hirsch 16 is currently going for about $2700 a bottle. It's a unique story and a unique bourbon. As for the PVWs, it really is just Buffalo Trace left on the wood - they use the exact same distillate for both products. If you want PVW, buy a barrel of BT and leave it in your garage for 10 years.

My friend has a huge collection of all the PVW. I told him you're wasting your time because once it's so widely known as the best that means you're buying at the high stock price. Any thoughts on the new PVW?

Also the problem with craft beer right now is the macro's are buying all the great ones out. There is a difference in taste once the crafts are bought out by the macros. We'll have to see how this develops.

 

[Upstream]

The other thing you're seeing is a rise in popularity of "baby bourbon". The "in" thing to do in the baby space is to hand-label the age statement right on the bottle. "This bourbon aged 4 months".

It seems laughable, at first. It's not. Barrel aging is a geometrically diminishing proposition. Most of the wood is imparted pretty early on in the process, and the effect degrades considerably over time. I've demonstrated myself that with a heavy char and a small barrel, you can turn out a year-old product that tastes better than any 4 year mainstream product on the market.

I've never had a "baby bourbon", but I'd be really surprised if a 4 month bourbon is comparable to a 2 year bourbon, and certainly not a 7 year bourbon.

I get the diminishing return in continual aging (it's the same in winemaking). The gain from 2 to 4 years is much greater than the gain from 4 to 9. And most people (including me) don't have palates that can appreciate the additional aging from 9 to 23 years, or at least not appreciate it several hundred dollars worth.

That said, 4 months seems really young.

 

[RU4Real]

I've never had a "baby bourbon", but I'd be really surprised if a 4 month bourbon is comparable to a 2 year bourbon, and certainly not a 7 year bourbon.

I get the diminishing return in continual aging (it's the same in winemaking). The gain from 2 to 4 years is much greater than the gain from 4 to 9. And most people (including me) don't have palates that can appreciate the additional aging from 9 to 23 years, or at least not appreciate it several hundred dollars worth.

That said, 4 months seems really young.

There are tricks to the 4 month thing. The biggest trick is called "10 gallon barrel". It's all about surface area:volume. A 10 gallon barrel will age its volume as much in a couple of months as a 53 gallon barrel will in a year.

Give it a shot, but avoid any of the Brooklyn Distillery products, for the reasons mentioned in prior posts.

 

[kupuna133]

I split a bottle of Jefferson Ocean with my brother-in-law last year. It was okay. The gimmick doesn't quite make it to the palate, though. It's more like, "Decent bourbon. Cool story, bro."

Hirsch 16 is currently going for about $2700 a bottle. It's a unique story and a unique bourbon. As for the PVWs, it really is just Buffalo Trace left on the wood - they use the exact same distillate for both products. If you want PVW, buy a barrel of BT and leave it in your garage for 10 years.

That was a great bet. Still sitting on the bottle. May look to unload. You know of any sites/stores or people that may be interested?

 

[RU4Real]

That was a great bet. Still sitting on the bottle. May look to unload. You know of any sites/stores or people that may be interested?

Not offhand... Your best bet would be to auction it, so if I were going to do it I'd look for auction sites that handle spirits. I know there are a few.

You might consider the alternative. You got it for free. Drink it. I don't have any high-end bourbons in my inventory, as a rule, but I'm known to have the occasional high-end single malt. All that's required is maybe an introspective mood, the company of a really good friend or close relative, some good music (Leonard Cohen is well suited) and a comfortable chair on your back deck on a cool night with a fire going in the fire pit.

Or bring it to one of my tailgates and I'll make sure that you're well fed.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

There are tricks to the 4 month thing. The biggest trick is called "10 gallon barrel". It's all about surface area:volume. A 10 gallon barrel will age its volume as much in a couple of months as a 53 gallon barrel will in a year.

Give it a shot, but avoid any of the Brooklyn Distillery products, for the reasons mentioned in prior posts.

Since it's all about the surface area : volume, what are your thoughts about aging using charred wood chips?

 

[RU4Real]

Since it's all about the surface area : volume, what are your thoughts about aging using charred wood chips?

I've done it. The hardest part is filtering when you're done.

But it's a GREAT thing to do when you're just kinda screwing around with your still, playing with different mash bills. Do your own thing. You can buy wood chips (for barbecuing) of pretty much every wood you can think of. One of the best runs I ever turned out was aged on charred hickory chips.

I'd stay away from mesquite.

But hell... Maple. Cherry. Oak. Hickory. PECAN! Apple. The list goes on.

Okay, fine. Just for you... the 4th Trick...

Heavy charred oak barrel. Before you fill the barrel, drop some charred cherry chips into it, or another fruit wood of your choice. Then after you fill the barrel, add one whole vanilla bean.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

I've done it. The hardest part is filtering when you're done.

But it's a GREAT thing to do when you're just kinda screwing around with your still, playing with different mash bills. Do your own thing. You can buy wood chips (for barbecuing) of pretty much every wood you can think of. One of the best runs I ever turned out was aged on charred hickory chips.

I'd stay away from mesquite.

But hell... Maple. Cherry. Oak. Hickory. PECAN! Apple. The list goes on.

Okay, fine. Just for you... the 4th Trick...

Heavy charred oak barrel. Before you fill the barrel, drop some charred cherry chips into it, or another fruit wood of your choice. Then after you fill the barrel, add one whole vanilla bean.

Very cool. Thanks

 

[WhiteBus]

Like the beer industry, craft distilleries will impact growth for the giants. But it won't put them out of business. For all the great craft beers out there, one of five beers sold at retail is a Bud Light.

I have half empty bottle of Knob Creek on my bar, and it won't be long until it is empty. But I also have several bottles of craft bourbons and ryes. (I've learned to avoid ryes from Indiana like Bulliett, because most come from the old Seagrams distillary, and they all taste the same. If you are looking for an excellent rye, I recommend Dad's Hat from Pennsylvania. If you see it at a bar, order it in a Manhattan.)

The advantage craft breweries have over craft distilleries is the breweries can start selling product within days of starting production. A craft distillery selling 7 year old bourbon has to wait 7 years to sell their first bottle.

Also, at least in PA the breweries can open tap rooms under a very cheap brewers license and do not have to open a kitchen.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Like the beer industry, craft distilleries will impact growth for the giants. But it won't put them out of business. For all the great craft beers out there, one of five beers sold at retail is a Bud Light.

I have half empty bottle of Knob Creek on my bar, and it won't be long until it is empty. But I also have several bottles of craft bourbons and ryes. (I've learned to avoid ryes from Indiana like Bulliett, because most come from the old Seagrams distillary, and they all taste the same. If you are looking for an excellent rye, I recommend Dad's Hat from Pennsylvania. If you see it at a bar, order it in a Manhattan.)

The advantage craft breweries have over craft distilleries is the breweries can start selling product within days of starting production. A craft distillery selling 7 year old bourbon has to wait 7 years to sell their first bottle.

A lot craft whiskies in general come from that Indiana distillery, including some of the ones mentioned in this thread, a fact that renders that last statement incorrect.

 

[RU4Real]

A lot craft whiskies in general come from that Indiana distillery, including some of the ones mentioned in this thread, a fact that renders that last statement incorrect.

Precisely. It's how High West is selling blends containing, in part, 13 year old bourbon.

I know that as a practice, a lot of consumers are totally cool with it. I think it's dishonest and immoral.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Precisely. It's how High West is selling blends containing, in part, 13 year old bourbon.

I know that as a practice, a lot of consumers are totally cool with it. I think it's dishonest and immoral.

Yep, I was pissed about it for a minute. Then I had another glass :smiley:

I still like High West and some others better than the big names, so I got over it quickly. Plus HW has some of their own aging now and doesn't completely obscure the fact that they blend the farmed-out stuff - unlike another brand mentioned here, which lost a false advertising suit for spinning elaborate lies.

 

[SkilletHead2]

4Real,

Was gonna email you on this, but then occurred to me that others may want to hear.

Make a graph of price on the X axis and quality on the Y axis. Which two or three whiskeys really are outliers above the regression slope? Best value at various price points?

 

[RU4Real]

4Real,

Was gonna email you on this, but then occurred to me that others may want to hear.

Make a graph of price on the X axis and quality on the Y axis. Which two or three whiskeys really are outliers above the regression slope? Best value at various price points?

That was pretty much the criteria I had in my head when I posted my preferences, because it's what I use, for myself, as a consumer.

Buffalo Trace goes for about 23 bucks a bottle, locally. The only things cheaper are Jim Beam and... probably something I can't remember. For the price it's exceptional.

Also by BT, Eagle Rare. There's a 10 and a 17. The 10 goes for a little over 30 a bottle and is a LOT worth it. The 17 violates my "too long on the wood" rule, is really good but not worth my 50odd bucks.

Across the pond... For value in Scotch I don't think you can beat the Macallan 10. I consider it more or less the benchmark single malt. It's not the best, but if you set its "taste for the money" factor at 1.0, there aren't many 1+ products on the market.

One of them might be The Bruichladdich 15. It's up there in price, probably just south of 100 bucks, but it's exquisite.

Finally, I'd say that a Laphroaig 10 definitely belongs in anyone's whiskey heart. It's mid-range priced, for a 10 year old single malt. What distinguishes it is... Well, there's nothing else in the world that tastes like it. It'll put the hair on your wee bits, for sure.

 

[mdh2003]

The second one is a secret that I'm keeping to myself for now.

Half-assed guess: man made environmental fluctuations (humidity, temperature, etc.) to simulate passage of time, and the effects on the barrels and booze, quicker.

 

[RUinPAC10land]

My enjoyment of whiskey started at the high. My friend invited me to his house and he had the Mets WS game on his TV. He was also serving Johnny Walker Blue to his guests. I actually almost finished the bottle after Matt Harvey refused to come out of the game and Collins did not have the backbone to take him out. Afterwards, sampled several more and my profile picture, Macallan 18 was my favorite.

 

[Postman_1]

Has anyone tried the new Ardbeg Kelpie yet? This is the commitee release I picked up a month or two ago. I haven't got around to opening one yet. Dont like to have to many bottles opened at once.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Has anyone tried the new Ardbeg Kelpie yet? This is the commitee release I picked up a month or two ago. I haven't got around to opening one yet. Dont like to have to many bottles opened at once.

Nope. We're waiting with baited breath for your essential review. So crack that puppy!

 

[RU4Real]

Nope. We're waiting with baited breath for your essential review. So crack that puppy!

I just read a review that noted a taste profile that included things like "oily" and "fish".

This sounds off-putting. Maybe it's great, but... "fish"? Ew.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I just read a review that noted a taste profile that included things like "oily" and "fish".

This sounds off-putting. Maybe it's great, but... "fish"? Ew.

Yeah, that definitely doesn't excite my taste buds!

 

[Postman_1]

I just read a review that noted a taste profile that included things like "oily" and "fish".

This sounds off-putting. Maybe it's great, but... "fish"? Ew.

Ive heard oily describing lots of scotch's including this one. I haven't seen a bad review yet regarding the Kelpie. I'll crack it open soon

 

[Postman_1]

Having some Laphroaig Cairdeas 2016 tonight. I read the 2017 version coming out soon will be cask strength Quarter Cask @ 57.2%

 

[DJ Spanky]

Had Glenfiddich Solera Reserve 15yo tonight.

 

[FoxRU]

Elijah Craig 18 is the tits!

 

[Postman_1]

Had these come in last week.
Glengoyne 25 and was gifted Glengoyne 15. My first 25 year old Ive purchased, with the price of Macallan 25 being so crazy I went with this one. Ive read nothing but great stuff about it. I still haven't opened it yet. I will soon. Having Lagavulin 12 toninght!!

 

[DJ Spanky]

MMMMmmmmmmm..........on my 2nd JW Green right now.

 

[DJ Spanky]

BTW: I've had the GlenGoyne 15 - good stuff. Let me know how the 25 is.

 

[Postman_1]

BTW: I've had the GlenGoyne 15 - good stuff. Let me know how the 25 is.

Will do, I will be enjoying it soon

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

We'll get there. I hate being patient.

BTW, as far as commercial brands go...

Buffalo Trace is a solid choice for the money. It's my personal "decanter whiskey", the stuff I keep in the crystal decanter on my kitchen counter for pouring at the end of the day.

Maker's Mark is also good and, because it's wheated and has no rye in the mash bill, is a good choice for people who don't like that back-palate burn that comes with a lot of bourbons and is a product of the rye in the mash.

Eagle Rare - also very good, for something in a price point a bit higher than Buffalo Trace.

For all the people who like High West - expand your horizons. High West products are blends. Some of the distillate is produced on site by the distiller, but the majority of it is produced by an outfit called Midwest Grain Products, located in Indiana. MGP is basically an ethanol factory. They pull quantities of product for barreling on site, which they then sell to small distilleries. The rest of their product gets blended with Exxon and finds its way to your local gas pump.

Here's a label tip. An American whiskey label will say one of two things: "Distilled by / at" or "Bottled by / at", where "at" is the name of the distillery and / or location.

If it says "bottled by" or "bottled at", that's your queue to put the bottle down because the product in the bottle wasn't made by the people who are selling it.

Methinks you should maybe have a Whiskey blog somewhere.. review stuff.. maybe get you some free samples from all over the place.

 

[RU4Real]

Methinks you should maybe have a Whiskey blog somewhere.. review stuff.. maybe get you some free samples from all over the place.

It's not a great idea, but it's a pretty saturated market at this point. If you Google "whiskey blog" or "whiskey review" you can get lost in all the results.

On another note, I picked up a set of those giant ice cube molds at BB&B yesterday (actually, the wife did). They're silicone molds, one makes six 2" cubes and two others make 2.5" spheres. If you're not a "neat" guy (I am not) but don't particularly like the watering-down that inevitably results from tossing a couple of regular cubes in the glass, these are perfect. I enjoyed a dram of Macallan 10 last night with one of the ice balls and it was perfect.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

It's not a great idea, but it's a pretty saturated market at this point. If you Google "whiskey blog" or "whiskey review" you can get lost in all the results.

On another note, I picked up a set of those giant ice cube molds at BB&B yesterday (actually, the wife did). They're silicone molds, one makes six 2" cubes and two others make 2.5" spheres. If you're not a "neat" guy (I am not) but don't particularly like the watering-down that inevitably results from tossing a couple of regular cubes in the glass, these are perfect. I enjoyed a dram of Macallan 10 last night with one of the ice balls and it was perfect.

If you really want to show off, try making a perfectly clear ice sphere. Fill your mold and place it in another container. Tupperware/Gladware works. Fill the 2nd container so that water comes 1/2 up on the mold. Freeze, but remove before container freezes solid. This is the only method I've found to work. Some sites recommend boiling the water multiple times. No dice.

 

[applesktrack]

If you really want to show off, try making a perfectly clear ice sphere. Fill your mold and place it in another container. Tupperware/Gladware works. Fill the 2nd container so that water comes 1/2 up on the mold. Freeze, but remove before container freezes solid. This is the only method I've found to work. Some sites recommend boiling the water multiple times. No dice.

Or if you're a star wars nerd they make the big death Star ice mold.

 

[RU4Real]

If you really want to show off, try making a perfectly clear ice sphere. Fill your mold and place it in another container. Tupperware/Gladware works. Fill the 2nd container so that water comes 1/2 up on the mold. Freeze, but remove before container freezes solid. This is the only method I've found to work. Some sites recommend boiling the water multiple times. No dice.

I'm into tailgate planning, at this point. The ice molds will eventually be used to stock ice for my whiskey drinking tailgates.

What I'm looking for, now, is a small cooler just for my big ice cubes that will keep them from melting the whole day.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Id go with one of the small Rtic coolers before Yeti sues em out of business. Pelican has a 4th of July sale on its coolers, too.

I generally think the "luxury cooler" market is ridiculous, but for something you really don't want melting, might be worth it. F Yeti and their overpriced nonsense, though.