The ACC admitted there were 4 errors during the 8 lateral run-back, and that Duke should not have lost the game on that play. At worst Miami should have had an untimed down deep in their own territory. But so far the ACC did not reverse the outcome. Duke lost and got royally screwed.
OT: ACC Suspends Refs 2 Games
- Thread starter NJCat83588
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I hate that play. There's a rule on the number of forward passes you can have in a play at 1. Why not limit the number of lateral passes/hand offs you can have in a play at 2? So you can go 2 backward and 1 forward. That still allows a flea flicker, a reverse, a reverse pass, and that speed option where the pitch man has an additional pitch man. All this pitching the ball and playing keep away is just silly and not playing the game of football.
Number of laterals was not an issue - unlimited laterals have been the rule since the beginning of the modern game, so I'm OK with it.
What was worse was the knee down when the player lateraled along the ground - basically a backwards fumble. Then there was the hit in the back at the 25 that the refs picked-up the flag after review. A flag/penalty is not review-able, and the refs were very wrong with that choice to go to the tape to check validity of a already-flagged infraction. If the ACC had any sense, it would call the game a draw to gain some fan-cred; but that would set another precedent that is a dark, deep rabbit hole that the refs and review personnel don't want to go down.
What was worse was the knee down when the player lateraled along the ground - basically a backwards fumble. Then there was the hit in the back at the 25 that the refs picked-up the flag after review. A flag/penalty is not review-able, and the refs were very wrong with that choice to go to the tape to check validity of a already-flagged infraction. If the ACC had any sense, it would call the game a draw to gain some fan-cred; but that would set another precedent that is a dark, deep rabbit hole that the refs and review personnel don't want to go down.
The ACC backed their decision to overturn the block in the back at the 25, they refs didn't use replay to overrule that, they gathered together and correctly overturned it. The only ding they got on that from the ACC was not communicating correctly why the flag was picked up.
Of course, the ACC pointed out their 3 other missed calls (block in back at own 16, knee down, and player on field w/o helmet)
I had believed that the replay official had overturned the illegal block, which is why my head exploded like something out of The Walking Dead. But even outside that, the officials turned that sequence into a fluster cluck by missing all those calls. Too bad for Duke.
I think the last block could very well have been a legal block. Anyway, I saw one Duke player turn his body to make it look like a clip on a block early in the play. That reminds me of a high school game where I was on the punt return team and I blocked a crappy Elmwood Park player cleanly but he turned his body to make it look like a clip. The ref didn't see the block, bought the fake clip, threw the flag, and nullified a punt return for a TD. The crappy Elmwood Park player got up, patted me on the helmet, and said "good job".
We proceeded to beat the crap out of crappy Elmwood Park 48-6, and their QB had to be carted away to the hospital after getting his clock cleaned on a passing play by our OLB. Hardest hit I ever saw in high school, but that's for another thread. Talk about karma.
We proceeded to beat the crap out of crappy Elmwood Park 48-6, and their QB had to be carted away to the hospital after getting his clock cleaned on a passing play by our OLB. Hardest hit I ever saw in high school, but that's for another thread. Talk about karma.
They cannot go down that road, because they would also have to consider ALL bad calls during the ENTIRE game, and try to figure what would have happened if all the bad calls had been correct.
Conceivably, other bad calls earlier in the game cost Miami points, or allowed Duke to score. Conceivably, if all bad calls had been correct, Miami would have won by 2 TD's, and the last play would have never even happened.
For example, Duke may have never scored in their last possession, if not for a bad call which allowed them to keep their drive alive as opposed to stopping well short of FG range....or perhaps it was the FIRST of Duke's scores which should have never counted because if they had called a Duke's hold, Duke would have had to punt before scoring, etc. etc., etc.
But of course Duke could also claim that the SECOND of Miami's scores should have never counted because a bad call allowed them to keep that drive alive and eventually score...etc., etc.
ANY officiating mistake, even one committed in the first play of the game, could postentially decide a game...if the NCAA or conferences start playing the "time machine" it will get VERY complicated in a hurry.
So, given the above argument (with which I agree) then the plural bad call(s) on the last play are simply indicative of a less-than-stellar overall officiating crew or effort. Therefore, suspending the crew a couple of games is the only reasonable action. I would assume that another similar game would cost them renewal of their jobs for next season.
It is too bad that Duke got shafted. I was rooting for them to run the ACC table.
The issue is that if he was down before the ball came out, the play is over. They supposedly reviewed it and it looked pretty clear so it should have been the end of the game.
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That call is probably why the refs got suspended. They can argue the rest but that one seemed pretty clear.
Right!
Well, that's the thing...we don't really know for sure that Duke "got shafted"....for the game...to assess that we would have to check all the questionable calls throughout the entire game, and tally who each benefited and by how many points. It is in principle possible that Miami lost enough points or Duke won enough points throughout the game because of bad calls that on balance Duke ended up a net beneficiary of bad officiating (even considering the last play). Only after such call-by-call analysis could we say which team (if any) "got shafted".
Watching the replays though it did appear that the ball may have already been on its way before the knee was fully down. Definitely very close, but the argument could be made. Also agree with Glades that the block in the back was really a bit of play acting and found it humorous to hear the ref rationale that it was "a block in the side" not a block in the back - again an interpretation that could be made. I think the only mistake the refs made was not taking enough time to review the full play.
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The ACC, who is in charge of the officiating, ONLY cited the mistakes on the last play. This was quite clear in the reporting of the discipline; they could have easily said that they were disciplined for other calls in the game, but they were not. So the ACC basically said Duke got shafted (four errors on the game-changing final play, two which directly affected the outcome).
Incidentally, did you watch the game? I did, and there was absolutely no question that the refs completely blew it and handed the game to Miami; there were no other equally egregious calls during the game that "balanced" the horrific end of game officiating.
Good point. But I hear he closely follows Eastern Illinois, what with their outstanding roster of former FBS players....
The only clear penalty that impacted play was the block at the 16. The 'knee on ground' play was incredibly close and certainly wouldn't have gotten to 'indisputable' video evidence; I thought it was out before he was down. The de-cleater at the 25 was close (but maybe it was too hard? - targeting a defenseless defender or something), and flagging for too many men on the field due to too-soon celebrating would just be in poor taste.
They missed a call. Lots of crews miss a call. You don't exactly get a lot of opportunities to practice keep your eyes in the right place on eight-lateral returns.
Overturning the result would have been injustice.
Yeah, they only cited the errors in the final play (only 2 would have changed the outcome). But they did NOT overturn the outcome of the game. The fact they did NOT implies what I argued: to overturn the outcome they would have had to be sure that there were no errors against Miami that would compensate for the errors in favor of Miami. Since they weren't sure they left the play and final score stand.
Even the so-called errors are at best questionable (only 2 could have changed the outcome: whether a player's knee had touched the ground before releasing the lateral which was close, and whether a block was in the back or not, which isn't obvious). As it turns out the officials allowed the play to continue which still gave Duke plenty of opportunities to decisively stop the play before a TD was scored. Duke never did. Duke lost. End of the story.
The ACC concluded that they made four egregious errors, on that last play. If it was one call, the refs would not have been suspended. And the way they handled the review at the end of the game was as if they had no idea what they were doing, none at all.
If this had involved our team, this board would have erupted with calls to reverse the result...
The reason they did not overturn the outcome has zero to do with what you said. They have no rule that can overturn the outcome in such cases, that is why they did not overturn the outcome. As an aside, the ACC determined that the errors were not "so-called" errors, and not "questionable" errors; they were errors. Read the attached report.
http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-announces-11-01-2015
And why don't they have a rule to overturn outcomes? Precisely because of what I said: You have to look at the entire game, not just a single play, even if it is the last one. And it gets extremely complicated, as errors throughout the game favor a team or the other, but not in an identical way.
It gets very tricky, especially because often you don't know what would have happened if a bad call had been correct. Say, at some point Miami is forced to punt because of a bad call. You don't know what would have happened had the call been correct. They would not have punted at that time, but you cannot assume they would have gone on to score, and even if you did, you'd still need to know whether it would have been a FG or a TD, and in the latter case, whether they would have made the PAT or not. Too many possibilities, throughout the game.
Unless a call is reversed via replay or conferencing at the moment allowed by the rule, the play and everything else that comes afterwards stand. It has always been like that.
The ACC looked at the entire game. They suspended the officials for two games for what occurred on the last play, and nothing else.
Uh mike, better look again at Eastern Illinois. They lost their first 3 to a pretty good Western Illinois team, NU and a very good Illinois State team in overtime. They haven't lost since, and Eastern is 5-0 in conference. Of course, they are leading their conference. Illinois State's only loss (they are 7-1) was to Iowa, and that game was a lot closer than NU vs. Iowa. So, it seems to me that Felis' analysis of the relative strength of Eastern Illinois was a lot closer to being accurate than those of the Board gurus who pronounced EIU "terrible"
Lol. Feel free to side with Feli in that argument (or any other argument, for that matter).
mike, I've simply provided you with the facts. Do you still feel that EIU is a terrible team and, if so, why? (My guess is that it's your hatred of Feli that colors your judgment.)
I never said EIU is a terrible team. What I will say to you is siding with Feli in virtually any argument makes one look silly. And I don't hate Feli, I don't hate anyone. But feel free to convey my feelings for me.....
Gotta agree. Feli is crazy sometimes, but he's right here.
And I don't pick and choose whose arguments to back based on who makes them, but rather on their merit. It's too bad some people do otherwise, otherwise this board might be a bit more interesting and less personal and emotional.
You play the game in front of you. At that point in the game, the call or lack of it is the only thing that matters. And since the bad call was on the last play of the game, no way to overcome it or balance it out. Same as in the NU Mich game last year. Not calling the procedure penalty that would have ended the game. Instead, OT.
Since the block in the back was not called, nothing that could be done there. Knee down was what could have overturned the play. And with all the other issues on the play, it would have been appropriate even id it was close as a sort of make up call that we see often enough.
I've gotta disagree with you. I watched the game and there was as much doubt that Sirk got into the end zone on Duke's final drive as there was with Walton not being down on that final play. Down here in S Fla, most are also up in arms about the 3 PI calls on that final drive, one of which negated what would have been a game clinching interception. It's hard to argue Duke got screwed when they clearly benefitted from other questionable calls.
Also a player running on the field at the end when Elder was practically in the end zone is hardly egregious and missing some non critical blocks in the backs is par for the course - holds and blocks are always being missed during the course of a game.
you can't argue to overturn this game without also arguing to overturn OSU's victory in the 2003 Fiesta Bowl and many other such situations.
You can disagree with me all you want, but this was so egregious that it made the CBS Evening News this evening. Not ESPN, the freakin' CBS Evening News. They don't report sports stories much. Here is the full story for you:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/acc-officials-suspended-after-miamis-miracle-win-over-duke/