I hope you’re right. But, I would take that bet. I think we still need three more. Would not surprise me one bit if that happens. I fully expect us to win out at home. Best case that Mich wins their next two on the road to set up a big game in NYC. The Illinois loss hurt but it’s not like there isn’t a path for us to play ourselves in.
NIT NIT splat
- Thread starter hddude55
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I don’t think anybody will mistake me for a Tim Miles fan. But, I see this said a lot in regards to Hunter. We use to talk about the extreme staff turnover under Miles. He should get credit for hiring and keeping Hunter around. I too am a bit concerned about Cope/Palmer turning pro. I’m sure both will test the waters. I think it helps that Palmer is now getting NBA draft talk in 2019....I would say Copeland is the most likely to leave. If he does, my dream would be to have Daum come home for his last year.
You really think Copeland is the most likely? I don't see it. I don't think he would get drafted and would end up in Europe or in the D league. The D league money is crappy and the life is not much better. IF I were in his shoes I would finish my degree first if I hadn't. Palmer on the other hand somebody would probably draft but that's no guarantee of making a roster.
I would say that Copeland, Palmer, Gill and Allen have been helpful toward the winning cause. Porbjarnjarnson is a Tim Miles recruit though. Miles gets sole credit for Porir.
Not sure why you brought up Smith, but if you know Coach Smith, one thing is for certain. He would have talked Miles out of banning the team from the locker room back in 2015. You remember that brilliant move? A team that had gone to the tourney the year prior, quit on Miles and lost 11 out of 12 or something like that.
The problem is that very few teams draft seniors anymore. Only 2 were drafted in the first round last year and they were the last 2 picks of the first round.
It is almost becoming, if it isn't already, like the MLB draft, if a player doesn't leave after their 3rd year in college, the clubs hold all the leverage. The player can't say, I'll go back to school if you don't give me the contract I want or draft me higher.
Copeland and Palmer are going to be in the same boat as Khyrie Thomas from Creighton. Thomas will get drafted, maybe in the first round, where Marcus Foster won't get drafted at all or at least not until the 2nd round. Which is worse than being an unrestricted FA. IMHO
It is almost becoming, if it isn't already, like the MLB draft, if a player doesn't leave after their 3rd year in college, the clubs hold all the leverage. The player can't say, I'll go back to school if you don't give me the contract I want or draft me higher.
Copeland and Palmer are going to be in the same boat as Khyrie Thomas from Creighton. Thomas will get drafted, maybe in the first round, where Marcus Foster won't get drafted at all or at least not until the 2nd round. Which is worse than being an unrestricted FA. IMHO
Hadn't thought of it that way. Ultimately though with the NBA a guy really doesn't have much leverage anyway unless he's a first rounder and neither Copeland nor Palmer would be first rounders IMO....although man Palmer has a pretty good all around game for the NBA.
I brought up Smith because all I heard 2 years ago was that we fell apart because we lost Smith.
But they don't lose anything by leaving this year. By not drafting seniors, there is no incentive for the player to return to "up their game". If a player has dreams of playing in the NBA they need to be playing where the NBA guys are looking. They aren't looking at many 22 or 23 year old college players.
Well they might have a great senior year and somebody could decide to make them a lottery pick. I'm just sayin I know a kid who was drafted in the 2nd round and it was no picnic. As a matter of fact it sucked until he could get out of his crappy 2nd round contract where he had to go live and play in a predominately Muslim country. Basically his NBA team sold him like a slave. His only option would have been to quit because of the arrangements the NBA has with foreign leagues.
You know as well as I do that the "that won't happen to me" syndrome will take over in many cases.
I am just saying that if Copeland and Palmer have dreams of playing in the league, they may be better off in the G League than in B1G.
As far as coming back and becoming a lottery pick, ain't happening. Nice players and all, but the lottery is for the young and the foreign
Who would have been the last graduating senior lottery pick or pre-lottery, early first rounder? Somebody took a 4 year college player very high a few years ago but I don't remember the particulars of who it was. I remember the debate then about the pick but not who it was.
IYou are right, n 2016 Buddy Hield, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine and Caris Lavert all were seniors and all went in the top 20. Again nice players, but the next year, the league changed course and only Derrick White and Josh Hart were selected in 1st round. Potential and foreign won out.
answer my own question: Kaminsky went 9th I think in 2015. In 2013 1 senior went in the first round. 2014-2. 2015-4 including Kaminsky and Valentine. 2016 Held went early 6th?. 2017-1 guy. Lots of seniors go in the second.
And even Derrick White was an unusual case - a late bloomer who played D-II ball until transferring to Colorado for his senior year.
Which is why they might be better off just going to play over in Europe. You can make a pretty good living over there. Petteway, Shields, Ubel, Jeter, Dourisseau, Webster are all still playing over there.
If Palmer and Copeland finish their degrees in May, I don't see any benefit from their point of view of staying here another year. Go get paid to play basketball while you still can. They could also pull an Andrew White and grad transfer to a big-name program where they can get more exposure. It seems to have worked out for AWIII.
The deal for me is whether or not they've finished their degree. Basketball will only last so long and they need that piece of paper if they don't get first round money. Basketball is short and life is long. A masters degree would certainly help as well as far as an incentive to stay in college. How does the lifestyle and income (free school) stack up between the two is the question that has to be answered.
I believe after six years
Doc Sadler 190 total games/ 101W/ 89L/ .532 win% 1-20 win season, 0 tourney
Tim miles 190 total games/ 95W/ 95 L/ .500 win %/ 1 20 win season, 1 tourney.
Not much justification for keeping Miles if we are using the last coach as a baseline.
Your statistics are factually correct, but they don't take a nuanced approach. Primarily that Doc Sadler's last season was 12-18, while Miles' is currently 20-9 with 2 games remaining. You also seem to dismiss the 1 tourney appearance and the possibility for a second in a six year stretch. The last time (before Miles) the Huskers made an NCAA appearance was 1998, 16 years before Miles came on board.
Other than Doc built up his record in the non conference. Miles has played overall harder out of Conference games, and has played more conference games during that span
Doc never had a winning record in conference play in any season, neither did Collier.
In conference,
Collier 36-60 38% 0 Winning Conf. Seasons
Sadler 34-64 35% 0
Miles 45-62 42% 2
Nee 88-118 43% 5
Iba 45-39 54% 3
Cipriano 126-112 53% 7
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I should also say, Miles has not been great. If your baseline is Nee though, he’s not as far off if you look deeper in the statistics.
When defending the success of a basketball coach, justifying By comparing to doc Sadler says everything you need to know.
Using those standards,Bill Callahan was a monumental success when compared to Mike Riley
Using those standards,Bill Callahan was a monumental success when compared to Mike Riley
but Bill Callahan with the same record at Kansas would be considered a success. It’s all relative.
Jump off the bandwagon now, but don't try to climb back on when they roll through the B1G tournament to reach the Final Four.
can you clarify if you are referencing the final four of the Big Ten tourney, the NIT, or the actual FINAL FOUR
Tuco, I think you're an intelligent guy based on your posts and our previous exchanges, otherwise, I wouldn't spend the time debating with you. I think a reasonable person would recognize that basketball history is quite a bit different than football history, though I did appreciate your comparison to Callahan.
That said, I'm going to challenge what I think is your point of view. I'm pretty clear that you don't believe Miles is the right guy for the job. I can appreciate that point of view, as no one can be sure of anything, and to be honest, after the transfers last year, I began to wonder if my faith in him was blind. Maybe it still is, but at least I can admit that the jury is still out.
My sincere belief is that it is very, very challenging to move a program from one with no history into one that is consistently competitive. I look at Nebraska's 100 year history and it's obvious to note an overall lack of success. Moe Iba earned the program's "first official NCAA bid". After the team lost in the first round, he retired, though fans had been calling for his job.
Danny Nee, probably the coach with most successful memories in recent history, had a .572 overall record. I'm not here to state claims definitively, but there were whispers that much of Nee's success came at the cost of paying players. Even with an increase in talent, this team and his tenure failed to succeed in the NCAA tournament.
The next two coaches proved to be less than successful, leading to the current day with Miles.
I ponder - is every Athletic Director simply dumb, lazy, cheap that Nebraska hasn't reached the level of success in basketball, or is it simply tough to do?
With a history (or lack there of) of performance, it's my suggestion that moving to the next level isn't very easy. Nebraska has had two coaches make the NCAA tournament. Only one who made it multiple times (Nee). Here we are in Miles' sixth season and the team is close to earning a second NCAA birth. If he makes the tournament twice in a six year run, I'd say that puts him on pretty rare air in the history of Nebraska basketball.
Now, let's go with the premise that you're just right and he's no good. Who do you hire? This is where it gets dicey. There are no silver bullets in this sport. Coaches who have had success at instantly turning basketball programs around (Bob Huggins, Frank Martin, Calipari, more...) are at least suspicious of shady recruiting practices. The others (Bill Self, Coach K, Roy Williams, etc.) are only going to be coaching at the most elite programs. I just don't know who the magic bullet is, and if Nebraska has a guy who not only is a positive role model, good with fans, but also potentially makes the tournament 2 of 6 seasons, with a chance of really making noise next year, I don't understand why we're in a hurry to run him off.
The problem with this is...let's say they don't extend him and then he has a good year next year. People will want him fired again in 2-3 years because he won't have as much talent out there because he'll be hindered in the recruiting process by not having 4 years on his contract.
ESPN now has us in the "Next Four Out" today - behind Penn State, Texas, and Syracuse, who all lost last night.
I guess I look at it like this. If you want to be mediocre at basketball, don’t get the donations and spend the millions on top notch practice facilities and such.
With that said, when a school decides to make a commitment like that, I would assume that the goal is to no longer be mediocre. When the basketball coach is allowed to continue down the same path year after year, with no post season berths, one has to wonder what the actual commitment is.
With that said, when a school decides to make a commitment like that, I would assume that the goal is to no longer be mediocre. When the basketball coach is allowed to continue down the same path year after year, with no post season berths, one has to wonder what the actual commitment is.
I've heard your argument several times about settling for mediocrity. What is your solution that you don't think these countless ADs have considered?
Do you really think they sit in their offices chuckling about basketball and that they secretly wish for mediocrity?
Standard options for a program with Nebraska's history when searching for a coach:
- Get an assistant coach from a blue blood and hope the blue blood coach rubbed off on him - this has been attempted several times to mixed success. Even at Northwestern where one could say it was a success, has left the team with a very disappointing season this year. They had nearly all returning starters back and a pre-season ranking, yet here they are clawing for an NIT bid. This is not a cherry picked example. Assistant coaches are at best a crap shoot.
- Get a mid-major coach who has shown the ability to win. Nebraska tried this twice with Collier and Sadler. Average at best turnout. This is also not unique to Nebraska. Some mid-majors make the leap, some do not.
- Get a sure fire winner to come here. Pie in the sky approach. Those coaches simply have no reason to come to Nebraska when they are already in better places.
- Get a sketchy character ala, Frank Martin, Bob Huggins - this basically throws your hands in the air and says "if you can't beat em, join em" - but I'll tell you, (assuming Nebraska steers clear of this current legal mess), I'm happy Nebraska doesn't go down the path of the illegal recruiting approach.
So now what? It's one thing to constantly point out problems. It's quite another to come up with solutions. What is yours?
i don't want to speak for Tuco but one solution might be not to spend elite money for a mediocre product and if you are destined to be mediocre invest that money elsewhere - either that or raise expectations to be comparable with your investment
I have said similarly in baseball - the BIG has had one team in the CWS in the last 30+ years. I love baseball but we should be spending the bare minimum on this non-revenue sport that is in a mid major conference.
What would we say about a basketball conference that has only had 1 elite 8 appearance in the NCAA tourney the last 33 years?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying throw in the towel and don't worry about competing. Is that correct? No knock if that's the case, I just hadn't thought about it that way. And I understand your point about baseball, but basketball is certainly different. a) it earns revenue and b) the Big Ten has certainly experienced success nationally.
Again, all due respect, but exaggerating data points doesn't do much for your cause. "no post season berths" is a flat out false claim.
If you don't want to me mediocre at basketball, then you're going to have to get your hands dirty. You can't talk about "doing things the right way," and expecting your coaches to be Boy Scouts, and win in college basketball. Look at Louisville in the news lately. Now imagine that x100 and you get Kentucky.
College basketball is all about the talent, and you're not going to get the talent unless you grease the palms of the elite club team coaches and camp organizers. They control the elite players, and they determine where they go. You can try to coach up a team of two-star players, and maybe it will work every 20 years, but if you want to finish better than 8th in the B1G then it is going to take a major attitude adjustment.
College basketball is all about the talent, and you're not going to get the talent unless you grease the palms of the elite club team coaches and camp organizers. They control the elite players, and they determine where they go. You can try to coach up a team of two-star players, and maybe it will work every 20 years, but if you want to finish better than 8th in the B1G then it is going to take a major attitude adjustment.
Not a bad suggestion. I'm sincerely open to all opinions, but what is unproductive is running around saying "this is a problem", or "this doesn't work right" without offering up viable solutions.
I’m not a basketball guy- can’t really chime in
Just not sure how Tuco wants a .500 basketball coach fired? Nu looks to be in the tournament 2 of 6 years
The basketball program comes with little to no success and little in state talent
Previous coach was .500 guy
But when it comes to football Tuco supports to the bitter end a .500 guy
In a program that is Number 5 in all time wins and he was hired on the heels of a guy who won 9/10 wins 7 years in a row
So support the .500 football guy when football had been great here?
But toss the .500 basketball coach from a program that has never been much of anything?
Makes no sense to me
Just not sure how Tuco wants a .500 basketball coach fired? Nu looks to be in the tournament 2 of 6 years
The basketball program comes with little to no success and little in state talent
Previous coach was .500 guy
But when it comes to football Tuco supports to the bitter end a .500 guy
In a program that is Number 5 in all time wins and he was hired on the heels of a guy who won 9/10 wins 7 years in a row
So support the .500 football guy when football had been great here?
But toss the .500 basketball coach from a program that has never been much of anything?
Makes no sense to me
