Negative Interest Rates

[spinner4_rivals42045]

Solving problems of too much debt, consumption and spending with more debt, more consumption and more spending And taking assets from competent people (savers & producers) & giving it to incompetent people (borrowers and spenders) is the only move on the chess board?

Is there an example of a nation that Print & Inflate (Counterfeit) its way out of a debt situation that worked out well?

More insanity is the best option than a reset?

hey I’m not saying it’s perfect. We’ve obviously got problems on the table. And as you keep bringing up, the National debt. But keep this in mind, most of our debt is self debt. And not all of that debt is bad debt. The sky is falling only if you let it.

Yes we may have to restructure some things. But the countries still strong compared to the rest of the world. And relevant to the rest of the world is critical.

You think we have no assets, we have assets. The state of Nebraska is a major asset. So is the whole Midwest. Farm lands true value isn’t on a balance sheet. Being able to feed your people is the most important thing. We can do that. Yes consumption would take a hit but we can live with that. So many more governments couldn’t do that.

And yes the military is our second biggest asset. Just like the link you posted stated. Real estate and P,P,&E are the #1 & 2 assets. But another thing a governmental balance sheet doesn’t take into account like a Corp’s financial shows is intangibles. Yes it can leave a going concern but that’s where we are.

And my problem with crypto isn’t because I think the banking system is perfect. My issue is crypto’s problems. Did you pay cash for your home and or cars? Do you have credit cards? how exactly can we do these things if we remove the banking system and the USD while keeping the intent of crypto intact? What protection does crypto have against a “bank run” or I guess in its case it would be known as a “crypto run”?

Yes you can borrow some against crypto. But I haven’t found one that you can truly borrow against. Most I’ve seen is you can borrow against half of your Crypto account. But to keep its spirit, you can never truly borrow against Crypto. Cause if it did, it would be extremely vulnerable to a crypto run and it already is vulnerable to that.

 

[spinner4_rivals42045]

Posted an article bringing up the national debt and here's another article for you: It doesn't matter that we "owe it to ourselves"
https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/whats-next-with-americas-enormous-20t-debt-21185/

The question was the U.S government has assets?
https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/us-governments-net-worth-is-now-negative-75-trillion-24868/
The U.S government has more liabilities than assets.

Great, I understood you the first time. That was the point of the response. I explained the lack of intangible assets on the US Balance sheet and the going concern. Please explain to me what basis land is valued on that balance sheet. Trust me, I already know. I also explained stated your debt question

But my main emphasis was on problems with crypto and what it lacks. Please counter that? How do we keep our houses and cars if we aren’t rich enough to pay cash for those?

 

[NikkiSixx_rivals269993]

Solving problems of too much debt, consumption and spending with more debt, more consumption and more spending And taking assets from competent people (savers & producers) & giving it to incompetent people (borrowers and spenders) is the only move on the chess board?

Is there an example of a nation that Print & Inflate (Counterfeit) its way out of a debt situation that worked out well?

More insanity is the best option than a reset?

yes.

there is no reason to throw a hand grenade into the crowd..

educate yourself and others on how to operate and protect assets during this type of market.

being angry about it and use bold type isn't going to help.

remember, you can only control what you can control, so be smart about it, and maybe you come out the other side of it better than when you started.

 

[oldjar07]

I said there are no guarantees we ever develop a quantum computer. Many people much smarter than either of us have said the same thing. There are even some ostensibly educated people that have begun to doubt quantum mechanics itself. I am not one of them, but the fact that Ivy League educated people can doubt the very scientific foundation that quantum computers rely on should speak volumes.

If you're interested in getting to the crux of the difficulty in creating a true quantum computer, Google the measurement problem and enjoy. The prerequisites just to get a basic understanding of that are fairly heavy.

You don't think quantum mechanics is real and I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about? Quantum mechanics has explained nearly every physical phenomena out there with incredible precision and accuracy and somehow it's wrong?

Quantum computers already exist, so you're just flat-out wrong that we can never develop them. Now making them useful and being able to solve real world problems better and more reliable than classical computers is the tricky part. That may take a decade or it may take longer than that, but it's certainly not impossible.

Sure smart people who work in a variety of different fields tend to be pessimistic about their own field. But they often fail to take into account what outside investment can do and the speed with which technology can develop when it has more than a miniscule amount of investment put into it.

The leaders in the AI field were pessimistic too just 10 years ago. There was a long AI winter prior to that. Most of those in the field didn't foresee the amount of investment, attention, or applications it would have over the last decade and into the next one. Now AI is everywhere and it's just the beginning.

 

[Suhrreal]

You don't think quantum mechanics is real and I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about? Quantum mechanics has explained nearly every physical phenomena out there with incredible precision and accuracy and somehow it's wrong?

Quantum computers already exist, so you're just flat-out wrong that we can never develop them. Now making them useful and being able to solve real world problems better and more reliable than classical computers is the tricky part. That may take a decade or it may take longer than that, but it's certainly not impossible.

Sure smart people who work in a variety of different fields tend to be pessimistic about their own field. But they often fail to take into account what outside investment can do and the speed with which technology can develop when it has more than a miniscule amount of investment put into it.

The leaders in the AI field were pessimistic too just 10 years ago. There was a long AI winter prior to that. Most of those in the field didn't foresee the amount of investment, attention, or applications it would have over the last decade and into the next one. Now AI is everywhere and it's just the beginning.

I said this:

"There are no guarantees we will EVER have a legitimate quantum computer."

You responded:

"Your assertion that we will never be able to develop quantum computers is laughable."

I said:

"There are even some ostensibly educated people that have begun to doubt quantum mechanics itself."

You responded:

"You don't think quantum mechanics is real and I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?"

I'm beginning to understand the breakdown in our dialogue. You even bring up AI which is yet another field rife with grandiose statements about its capabilities and its future. I will simply tell you again, what you read in popular science media is not always true! The number of people out there trying to sell products and technology with no clear future is staggering. The best recent case I can think of is Theranos, which I'm sure you have heard of.

The boom in artificial intelligence is a result of a proliferation of multi-core hardware that used to be extremely expensive. Anybody can go out and buy a CPU or GPU with dozens to thousands of cores for a reasonable price now. The advent of cloud computing also lets people rent out huge amounts of computational power that used to cost in the millions of dollars. The advances were not so much in the AI itself but in the technology that had to catch up for the AI theory that had been around for decades.

The other large factor in AI's advance was the huge uptick in internet use that allowed people to more easily collect data for AI refinement. All the pictures and social media posts and videos that people have uploaded have been put to use in AI. Every CAPTCHA you ever solved for Google has been used to refine their AI results.

With that said, for this huge advance in AI, these scientists still do not know the how-and-why behind their algorithms. More for you to investigate if you are truly interested in these things.

And again, as far as quantum computing is concerned: the measurement problem. It's a real problem. I don't say this to insult you, but it is a problem that may be beyond your comprehension if you do not have a math/science background. And if you can't understand it and debate it intelligently, we have no reason to continue this discussion!

 

[spinner4_rivals42045]

Does the lack of intangible assets on the U.S balance sheet make up for 75 trillion+ loss?

Had no comment or question in regards to Crypto...

If you had no comment on Crypto, then I’m wondering why your responding to my post? That’s kind of throwing me for a loop here cause that’s the subject of my post.

But if you want to break down the governments balance sheet also keep in mind P,P, & E is at historical cost, not FMV. Also keep in mind, gold is way under valued on our balance sheet. I have masters in accounting and a CPA but you don’t need all that education to understand a balance sheet. It’s not as tit for tat as you make it sound.

Wonder about the governments going concern, look at the value of gold everytime we borrow money. Do we have the coin in fort knox or is it mirage. The market seems to think we do

 

[Kleitusbpn]

If you had no comment on Crypto, then I’m wondering why your responding to my post? That’s kind of throwing me for a loop here cause that’s the subject of my post.

But if you want to break down the governments balance sheet also keep in mind P,P, & E is at historical cost, not FMV. Also keep in mind, gold is way under valued on our balance sheet. I have masters in accounting and a CPA but you don’t need all that education to understand a balance sheet. It’s not as tit for tat as you make it sound.

Wonder about the governments going concern, look at the value of gold everytime we borrow money. Do we have the coin in fort knock or is it mirage. The market seems to think we do

We don't. Run Ron or rand Paul's audit and be done if we did...

 

[spinner4_rivals42045]

The subject of the thread was negative interest rates and you posted questions that asked NikkiSixx - when you originally commented.
Did not make sense.

The U.S government balance sheet shows it's not bankrupt?
I have three degrees in finance, banking and real estate and you are right... you don't need all that education to understand basic math.
A debt owed is a debt owed.

Gold on the books at $44.22

Charles DeGaulle called USA's Bluff on Gold a Long Time Ago

So America is no longer a going concern? We are bankrupt? I think that’s news to me and the rest of the world. Appears to me that your assuming we will eventually default on our long term debt. Which of course is just a theory based on “simple math”. FYI negative equity, which you are referring to doesn’t mean someone is bankrupt. But you already know the definition of what that is, since you have a degree in banking and would know the true definition of bankruptcy and how that really wouldn’t apply here and now.

I think the thing you should really worry about is how America will need to raise funds when it needs to pay off debt that it can’t handle. Cause right now, it’s still got a AAA credit rating by most outside of S&P, where’s it’s still a very good credit rating @ AA+. Still an ongoing concern. And still not bankrupt by definition

And thanks for the YouTube clips. I love conspiracy theory videos. Especially one with a “get rich fast” guy as their creditable source. Mike Maloney is your source? , yeah I’ve got nothing more for you. GBR

 

[Crazyhole]

I've got to admit, this is a pretty funny thread. How quantum mechanics gets invoked into what is a basic, known theory of supply and demand, and the relative nature of intermediary currency is pretty entertaining.

Any discussion about macro economics cam always be reduced to the very basis of micro economics. Even when dealing with currency exchange rates or trade. It literally is a zero sum game. The speed of your computer is only worth how many sandwiches I give you when you're starving to death.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

The U.S government is bankrupt - that is a FACT!
The U.S governments own financial statements that is in black and white for anyone who is willing to pay attention... show the U.S government is totally insolvent.
If "America" was a private company (it's a corporation) it would be shutdown and prosecuted for fraud!
https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/yes-the-us-government-really-is-bankrupt-heres-proof-18014/

How much Truth do you want that this is not news to the world?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chine...llar-says-u-s-system-is-a-product-of-the-past
“We are not setting the target of moving away from the dollar — the dollar is moving away from us…”
— Vladimir Putin
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/p...ing-the-world-away-from-the-dollar-2018-11-29
"At the moment we have to depend upon the dollar but the U.S dollar is also not stable. So the currency that we propose should be based on gold because gold is much more stable." - Prime Minster of Malaysia
https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveh...-mahathir-mohamed-goes-for-gold/#3ef6ea9d3230

Were you not around in 2008? The Big banks were not in bed with the rating agencies to defraud the American people?
The top 3 credit ratings agencies: Moody's, Fitch and Standards & Poor's had good credit ratings for people that put no $ on houses and had no job. This time is different?

Raise funds to pay off the U.S debt?
The U.S government borrows currency into existence from the FED - the U.S government cannot just pay down the national debt.
All U.S currency - expect for coins is created out of debt.
Under this debt currency system, to reduce the debt is to reduce the national currency.
This is the reason why interest rates are so low and the talk of negative interest rates is to make sure the banks - do not fail!

Fully aware the U.S government and state governments need to steal (raise taxes) to stay afloat. Nebraska tried to remove sales tax exemption on precious metals in 2019 and nearly had to leave Nebraska again...

The government they have nothing. Everything they get and they want to give to someone else, they have to steal it from somebody. That's called taxation. The redistribution of wealth. - Ron Paul May 5, 2011

Conspiracy video showing proof of the U.S government financials statements on gold? You brought it up haha

Gold & Silver is a "get rich fast' scheme? Funny because always thought it was to help preserve your purchasing power.

"If you know how the world financial system works you know the game that you are playing and if you do not know the game and the rules that we're playing by - you are going to get slaughtered - you are going to get slaughtered. I cannot help the guy who does not want to wake up from his beer and football induced coma." - Mike Maloney

By the technical definition the us government cannot go bankrupt. They will print more money to pay the debts. So thus, they always have the resources to pay their debts.

What virtually nobody wants to acknowledge is that all this lowering of interest rates and quantitative easing IS A DEFAULT. It's the opposite form of default than most accounting experts think of as a default (lack of monetary resources to pay). They've got an infinite amount of resources to pay (printed dollars) but nothing production wise backing it.

So all this printing since 1981 with lowering interest rates and QE has been one gigantic default. But nobody is educated anymore on what that means.

 

[spinner4_rivals42045]

The U.S government is bankrupt - that is a FACT!
The U.S governments own financial statements that is in black and white for anyone who is willing to pay attention... show the U.S government is totally insolvent.
If "America" was a private company (it's a corporation) it would be shutdown and prosecuted for fraud!
https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/yes-the-us-government-really-is-bankrupt-heres-proof-18014/

How much Truth do you want that this is not news to the world?

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chine...llar-says-u-s-system-is-a-product-of-the-past
“We are not setting the target of moving away from the dollar — the dollar is moving away from us…”
— Vladimir Putin
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/p...ing-the-world-away-from-the-dollar-2018-11-29
"At the moment we have to depend upon the dollar but the U.S dollar is also not stable. So the currency that we propose should be based on gold because gold is much more stable." - Prime Minster of Malaysia
https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveh...-mahathir-mohamed-goes-for-gold/#3ef6ea9d3230

Were you not around in 2008? The Big banks were not in bed with the rating agencies to defraud the American people?
The top 3 credit ratings agencies: Moody's, Fitch and Standards & Poor's had good credit ratings for people that put no $ on houses and had no job. This time is different?

Raise funds to pay off the U.S debt?
The U.S government borrows currency into existence from the FED - the U.S government cannot just pay down the national debt.
All U.S currency - expect for coins is created out of debt.
Under this debt currency system, to reduce the debt is to reduce the national currency.
This is the reason why interest rates are so low and the talk of negative interest rates is to make sure the banks - do not fail!

Fully aware the U.S government and state governments need to steal (raise taxes) to stay afloat. Nebraska tried to remove sales tax exemption on precious metals in 2019 and nearly had to leave Nebraska again...

The government they have nothing. Everything they get and they want to give to someone else, they have to steal it from somebody. That's called taxation. The redistribution of wealth. - Ron Paul May 5, 2011

Conspiracy video showing proof of the U.S government financials statements on gold? You brought it up haha

Gold & Silver is a "get rich fast' scheme? Funny because always thought it was to help preserve your purchasing power.

"If you know how the world financial system works you know the game that you are playing and if you do not know the game and the rules that we're playing by - you are going to get slaughtered - you are going to get slaughtered. I cannot help the guy who does not want to wake up from his beer and football induced coma." - Mike Maloney

Just like @Kleitusbpn said it can’t go bankrupt by definition. This is ludicrous that you are even defending that not only can it, but it is. I give up on you. Completely but I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this stuff.

 

[oldjar07]

I said this:

"There are no guarantees we will EVER have a legitimate quantum computer."

You responded:

"Your assertion that we will never be able to develop quantum computers is laughable."

I said:

"There are even some ostensibly educated people that have begun to doubt quantum mechanics itself."

You responded:

"You don't think quantum mechanics is real and I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?"

I'm beginning to understand the breakdown in our dialogue. You even bring up AI which is yet another field rife with grandiose statements about its capabilities and its future. I will simply tell you again, what you read in popular science media is not always true! The number of people out there trying to sell products and technology with no clear future is staggering. The best recent case I can think of is Theranos, which I'm sure you have heard of.

The boom in artificial intelligence is a result of a proliferation of multi-core hardware that used to be extremely expensive. Anybody can go out and buy a CPU or GPU with dozens to thousands of cores for a reasonable price now. The advent of cloud computing also lets people rent out huge amounts of computational power that used to cost in the millions of dollars. The advances were not so much in the AI itself but in the technology that had to catch up for the AI theory that had been around for decades.

The other large factor in AI's advance was the huge uptick in internet use that allowed people to more easily collect data for AI refinement. All the pictures and social media posts and videos that people have uploaded have been put to use in AI. Every CAPTCHA you ever solved for Google has been used to refine their AI results.

With that said, for this huge advance in AI, these scientists still do not know the how-and-why behind their algorithms. More for you to investigate if you are truly interested in these things.

And again, as far as quantum computing is concerned: the measurement problem. It's a real problem. I don't say this to insult you, but it is a problem that may be beyond your comprehension if you do not have a math/science background. And if you can't understand it and debate it intelligently, we have no reason to continue this discussion!

I know a lot more about AI than quantum computers. I will admit that. I also know a hell of a lot about how technology works in general. And it's more than just reading pop sci articles. Sure there is a lull, often times very long from first discovery to practical applications. Quantum computers don't need to be perfect for them to be useful. Making them perfect is going to take a lot more fundamental research and like you said, maybe it is practically impossible in our lifetimes. Oftentimes things don't need to be perfect for them to be useful. My prediction is we're going to find a lot of uses for these imperfect quantum computers in 10 years, at least in areas such as solving discrete optimization problems, supporting research in different technical fields, and probably at least the start of cryptography applications.

The reason I brought up AI as an analogy is practically noone in the field just 10 short years ago would have predicted how big AI would have gotten by now. Sure AI has had grandiose statements made about it. It also deserves those statements. AI is or soon will be the greatest innovation in human history. That's not to say there aren't problems within the field. AI is a very complex problem. Companies that work with AI and treat AI as a complex problem tend to have success while companies that try to treat AI as an easy problem tend to fail. Humans do have a bad habit of trying to make things as simple as possible when reality is more complex. Machine learning and neural networks have been hyped up over the last decade while rules based systems and other AI fields have been overlooked a bit lately. The best approach to solving complex problems is likely to be bringing connectionist and symbolic AI together. Leveraging ensemble networks or even combining something like a neural network with a SVM may be the best approach to solving complex problems or tasks.

Like you touched on a bit, the real value of AI is getting it out to the world and putting it to use in real world tasks. Voice based AI is on the verge of impacting a lot of industries. RPA and other AI is going to replace a ton of office work in the next decade. AI is going to have a major impact on just about every industry in the next decade.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

I love Doug Casey, jim Rogers etc.

By the technical definition the US cannot default. That's a word usage thing nothing more.

They're 'defaulting' by printing. You don't need to write an essay on something that obvious.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

.... or in other words people who say the US can't default are being a bunch of lawyers an purposefully deflecting.

This much printing is the mirror image of a bankruptcy haircut in value to stakeholders or debtholders. Instead of the nominal of your investments going down it may go up but the dollar itself is destroyed.

Either way you're getting boned.

 

[Crazyhole]

Yes, governments CAN go bankrupt. And no, it's NOT impossible
https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/the-us-government-now-has-less-cash-than-google-21175/

Doug Casey writing today
https://internationalman.com/articl...t-should-really-do-in-the-greater-depression/
5. Default on the national debt. I realize this is a shocker, unless you recall that the debt will never be paid anyway. And why should the next several generations have to pay for the stupidity of their parents?

A default sounds dishonorable—and it is, in civil society. But government is different. It hasn’t been “We the People” for a long time; it’s now a self-dealing behemoth, run by cronies. It’s like a building with a rotten foundation—better to bring it down with a controlled demolition, than wait for it fall unpredictably.

Governments default all the time, though most defaults are subtle, through inflation. In an outright default, however, the only people who get hurt are those who lent money to an institution that can only repay them by stealing money from others. They should be punished.

The Federal Reserve (not apart of the U.S government) prints currency NOT the U.S government. The U.S government borrows currency into existence from the FED.

"We do not have a system that is working. We one that basically moves cash around and we can guarantee cash benefits as far out and whatever size you would like but we cannot guarantee their purchasing power." - Alan Greenscam (Former Federal Reserve chairman)

There is some yes and some no here. Being the world's reserve currency does kind of blur the line between the dollar being a currency and being a commodity. Currently, no we really can't declare bankruptcy because demand for dollars isn't predicated on what is backing it. "Full faith" isn't quantifiable but that's what gives the dollar its value. Its a bit of a house of cards that eventually will collapse with emerging markets providing more stability, but for now we're good. Basically we are the best crappy house in a neighborhood of really crappy houses.

 

[Crazyhole]

The dollar conjured out of nothing - a commodity?
Why would the biggest spending in U.S history be happening right now if things were good?
As was pointed out as obvious... the U.S government is defaulting by debasing the dollar (printing/counterfeiting $)

With you on emerging markets... was in Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar and Malaysia earlier this year to checkout.

Well put on your last sentence!

Yeah, the dollar does blur the line and is in a weird way actually a commodity. There is demand for dollars because all global oil trade is done in dollars, so foreign countries need them. A lot of those dollars just circulate around the world indefinitely. The issue we are going have eventually is when we lose our status as reserve currency and all of those dollars come back to claim goods that we don't have the capacity to create. When that happens we will be able to file bankruptcy

 

[Kleitusbpn]

Yeah, the dollar does blur the line and is in a weird way actually a commodity. There is demand for dollars because all global oil trade is done in dollars, so foreign countries need them. A lot of those dollars just circulate around the world indefinitely. The issue we are going have eventually is when we lose our status as reserve currency and all of those dollars come back to claim goods that we don't have the capacity to create. When that happens we will be able to file bankruptcy

Rest of the world remembering the word "diversification" is enough by itself.

 

[Crazyhole]

Rest of the world remembering the word "diversification" is enough by itself.

Yep. About 20 years ago it looked like the Indonesian dollar was going to start competing on a small scale globally with the US dollar. Back then we were a pretty safe bet. If an emerging market like that comes forward again in the next few years we might have a big problem.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

Yep. About 20 years ago it looked like the Indonesian dollar was going to start competing on a small scale globally with the US dollar. Back then we were a pretty safe bet. If an emerging market like that comes forward again in the next few years we might have a big problem.

Big problem regardless. Most of the rest of the world remembers that solid assets are worth something.

 

[Crazyhole]

Big problem regardless. Most of the rest of the world remembers that solid assets are worth something.

I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. Don't get me wrong, I think fiat currency is a recipe for disaster but it feels like there has been a natural shift away from raw materials to value added products worldwide. Not sure if you were talking about gold/silver/etc. but that was how I took it.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. Don't get me wrong, I think fiat currency is a recipe for disaster but it feels like there has been a natural shift away from raw materials to value added products worldwide. Not sure if you were talking about gold/silver/etc. but that was how I took it.

Lithium. Rare earth. Oil after the supply is burnt off.

Gold will do fine. The big gains will be elsewhere. They're killing off supply in all commodities with this crash and massively jumping the dollar supply. Matter of time and any foreign investor with no/manageable debt and a brain will not look at the dollar.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

If you're talking precious metals I'd rather own platinum or silver than gold hands down. They aren't going to zero either and way way way more upside.

 

[Crazyhole]

Lithium. Rare earth. Oil after the supply is burnt off.

Gold will do fine. The big gains will be elsewhere. They're killing off supply in all commodities with this crash and massively jumping the dollar supply. Matter of time and any foreign investor with no/manageable debt and a brain will not look at the dollar.

Eventually, yes. We're probably a couple of years away from that though. I agree with something like lithium being a potential driving force behind an emerging economy because of its utility. Gold has become less and less of a commodity so I really don't see it being a factor other than its current status as a hedge.

And quite honestly, the United States might discover something that could be the next oil and solidify the dollar. Who knows. Nothing is static so anything is possible.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

Eventually, yes. We're probably a couple of years away from that though. I agree with something like lithium being a potential driving force behind an emerging economy because of its utility. Gold has become less and less of a commodity so I really don't see it being a factor other than its current status as a hedge.

And quite honestly, the United States might discover something that could be the next oil and solidify the dollar. Who knows. Nothing is static so anything is possible.

I have no doubt it will stay solid against other currencies. None.

I also have no doubt there will be a churning period of like 18-36 months as the "new" money churns through debt and things restart.

If they start giving away 2000+ to every American every month and start giving away things like cars like has been proposed currently or in the past all bets are off though.

 

[Crazyhole]

I have no doubt it will stay solid against other currencies. None.

I also have no doubt there will be a churning period of like 18-36 months as the "new" money churns through debt and things restart.

If they start giving away 2000+ to every American every month and start giving away things like cars like has been proposed currently or in the past all bets are off though.

You know they are going to though, right? And a large portion of people will think it's wonderful for about 2 years. Then price controls kick in.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

You know they are going to though, right? And a large portion of people will think it's wonderful for about 2 years. Then price controls kick in.

Price controls have always failed and everyone knows why.

The key here is management not quick dollars. Might take a decade to realize the gains but they are there.

Or just find a commodity that won't have price controls -- ever. It's not that hard if you're willing to think outside the box. Investing in yourself is an easy example.

 

[Crazyhole]

By definition...the dollar is not a commodity but unlike the nonsense talk that the U.S government cannot go bankrupt...
Understand what you’re trying to point out - it’s simply by force those dollars are accepted.
Look at what happened to Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi when they wanted gold as payment instead of dollars.
You think the U.S government will file for bankruptcy?

That may be true, but demand for dollars is not based on what is backing it. Some of it is because of relative stability, some of it is due to a faux sense of utility as an intermediary. Never in history has the world seen a situation like this. The deal with Gaddafi is a little more convoluted than just wanting gold because it was safer than the dollar, he kind of painted himself into a corner and gold gave him flexibility. The gold standard is an antiquated system that was based on pride and status, it was never about utility.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

That may be true, but demand for dollars is not based on what is backing it. Some of it is because of relative stability, some of it is due to a faux sense of utility as an intermediary. Never in history has the world seen a situation like this. The deal with Gaddafi is a little more convoluted than just wanting gold because it was safer than the dollar, he kind of painted himself into a corner and gold gave him flexibility. The gold standard is an antiquated system that was based on pride and status, it was never about utility.

Dollar demand is because of debt mostly... you need dollars to pay dollar debts. They print more dollars and there's more debts.. rather counterintuitive unless you see the pattern.

It's a commodity as long as debts don't collapse or disappear for some reason basically.

 

[Crazyhole]

You do realize gold hit an all time high in 73 countries last year?
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-11/everything-has-changed-gold-all-time-high-73-countries

Yep. And it makes sense but only because it is a hedge who's value is relative to all currencies. Can you buy food with gold? Oil? Electricity? If you think you can then try it. There is very limited utility in gold and it is relatively finite.

We will sooner see a barter system of commerce before gold becomes a currency again.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

The irony of most gold bugs clamoring for a gold backed system is that they can make more money in the current one. Be careful what you wish for and all that jazz (paraphrased from jim rickards).

 

[Crazyhole]

Dollar demand is because of debt mostly... you need dollars to pay dollar debts. They print more dollars and there's more debts.. rather counterintuitive unless you see the pattern.

It's a commodity as long as debts don't collapse or disappear for some reason basically.

Exactly. The "oh ****" aspect of this is that eventually it won't be the reserve currency and "full faith and credit" comes back on our countries ability to satisfy that debt through goods that we can sell. This goes way beyond domestic inflation.

 

[Crazyhole]

Actually, yes you can.
Personally, sell $50 face value gold coins. Obviously, not wise to do it but have people even exchange them at the bank & had bank managers bring them in.

People in Venezuela right now have great utility for gold and Zimbabwe last decade and Argentina before that - recent examples of hyperinflation...

Lol. Go to the bank and get dollars. Thats exactly the point. You cannot make transactions without dollars. I'm not saying gold isn't worth anything, but its value us relative to currencies that you actually can use. Thats where the demand for it comes from.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

What he's saying is there is no paypal or blockchain for gold. He's right.

 

[Crazyhole]

Fiat currency definition is it’s intrinsically valueless product used as a means of payment “some entity has to enforce it via law or regulation.” Why do you think said understand your point?

So what exactly is the value of gold? If you have a truckload of it, what are you going to do with it?

 

[Crazyhole]

In which currency, nation you asking?

Maintain purchasing power and go nearly anywhere in the world with it.

In Venezuela it takes about 300 million bolivar for one ounce of gold
https://www.goldbroker.com/charts/gold-price/ves

So what is 300 million bolivar worth? It seems like you are maybe missing the point. There is essentially no demand for gold other than its relative value to fiat currency. What can it be used for other than transactions from one currency to another? Sure, you can make a ring out of it and get a value-added aspect to the sale but in general it really isnt worth anything. Maybe some electronic applications but as far as consumption goes there really is nothing there.

3 of the 10 biggest goldmines in the world are located in the Dominican Republic. Why are they still struggling with poverty?

 

[Crazyhole]

Go to Asia (India, Thailand, Singapore) and see the demand for gold for yourself...
Here’s an example for you that will help:
If you need cooking oil you have to exchange it for gold, if you need soap you have to exchange it for gold. Everything is gold, gold - no Zimbabwe dollars.


With the great demand for dollars as you referenced...
Why are roughly 10%+ of Americans still struggling with poverty?

You're taking my statements out of context. If there wasn't a demand for dollars we would be seeing double digit inflation. Poverty is a permanent condition at some level no matter what currency is used or the demand for it. Sure, there are cases where gold is used for transactions like what you referenced but I don't think I'd say small markets in Zimbabwe are an accurate representation of the cause of demand for gold worldwide.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

What is your point - you want understood?

No one said there wasn’t a demand for dollars and Zimbabwe example (Zimbabwe $ was worth more than USD in 1980 when it was introduced) was used to answer your question gold use without fiat currency.

I already explained his point. There really is no practical way to go to the store and spend gold. There is no paypal or blockchain that just spends gold.

He is correct. Thus gold has limited utility at best.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

My point got taken out of content as well
By law & regulation you are forced to use dollars
Why do you think have a business to help with this issue?
People paid me with paypal to buy gold this week and would accept crypto as well And a lot online dealers accept both platforms for gold as well

“Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. Fiat money in extremis is accepted by nobody. Gold is always accepted.” - Alan Greenscam

Which still proves his point correct. Gold isn't the intermediary the dollar is.

 

[Kleitusbpn]

Who said otherwise? Clearly stated right away understand what you’re trying to point out - it’s simply by force those dollars are accepted

Commented about dollar being a commodity because it not a good store of value by definition that was the point

*facepalm*

 

[Kleitusbpn]

The demand for dollars is debt driven. That ends if debt disappears...

You seriously don't understand short to medium term monetary dynamics at all.