ND, Cuse, Pitt, not thriving in ACC?

[srru86]

NY Post Zach Braziller
Lower down mention of Geo covered elsewhere.
I'm more interested in the hoops angle of our former BE friends. Also note no mention of BC.
Abandoning Big East has become a disaster for one-time powerhouses
I'm sure the football side not complaining

 

[shields]

Nice to see ND having a bad year.

 

[Russ Wood]

I'm not clicking on that link but the headline kind of supports my long held belief that, as good as the Big East was, the ACC was a better conference.

Notre Dame has finished in the top-5 twice in the ACC and both of those seasons made it to the Elite Eight but most seasons that ND has been in the ACC they've posted 10 or more conference losses and have only had one season where its overall record had fewer than 10 losses.

 

[Caliknight]

Syracuse and ND don’t have anywhere near the talent they used to get in Boheims prime.

 

[kcg88]

They've lost access to the Philly/NY recruiting areas, which makes sense. Boeheim used to be able to reliably get guys like Hakim Warrick and Gerry McNamara and Dion Waiters and Scoop Jardine and Rick Jackson from eastern PA which made sense when those guys would play against Rutgers, St. John's, Villanova, and Seton Hall within a reasonable drive. Now the closest ACC school is Pitt, and the second-closest is, like, Virginia or Boston College.

Lately Penn State has been able to get those guys. If Pat Chambers could coach like Jim Boeheim, they'd have been close to mid-2000s Syracuse level with a team of Mike Watkins, Tony Carr, and Lamar Stevens.

The guy who scored 14 on us last night (Ryan Young) is from Bethlehem PA. In the older days he'd have ended up at a Big East school.

 

[rufeelinit]

The article mentioned that Hopkins leaving has hurt Syracuse recruiting and that Boeheim is now 76 years old. They more than ND and Pitt seemed to have struggled to have the same success as in the BE. ND is down but as mentioned above has had some success while in the ACC they also have the best of the three with regard to recruiting classes for next year. Capel seems to be making some progress at Pitt and the reference to letting Dixon go is more of an internal Pitt matter than their conference affiliation. The biggest beneficiary in all of this was most likely Villanova who clearly established themselves as the top dog in the conference and became a national power.

 

[kcg88]

The article mentioned that Hopkins leaving has hurt Syracuse recruiting and that Boeheim is now 76 years old. They more than ND and Pitt seemed to have struggled to have the same success as in the BE. ND is down but as mentioned above has had some success while in the ACC they also have the best of the three with regard to recruiting classes for next year. Capel seems to be making some progress at Pitt and the reference to letting Dixon go is more of an internal Pitt matter than their conference affiliation. The biggest beneficiary in all of this was most likely Villanova who clearly established themselves as the top dog in the conference and became a national power.

Hopkins might be back sooner rather than later, his Washington team is abysmal.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I'm not clicking on that link but the headline kind of supports my long held belief that, as good as the Big East was, the ACC was a better conference.

Notre Dame has finished in the top-5 twice in the ACC and both of those seasons made it to the Elite Eight but most seasons that ND has been in the ACC they've posted 10 or more conference losses and have only had one season where its overall record had fewer than 10 losses.

nailed it

the big east was very very tough

but Notre dame, Pittsburgh, Louisville and Syracuse left the big east as top 8 (Programs)...

and left behind a weaker group (Villanova, Georgetown, Sr johns, Seton hall, Providence, marquette and DePaul)

to join duke, North Carolina, North Carolina state, Virginia ...a confrence much stronger on top and with more resources

not a knock on the big east ...just what happened

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

All I know is this season, we’re rooting for Cuse to win as much as possible being they were one of only 4 OOC opponents.

Glad they hung on yesterday against NC State. It’s important that they remain a Q2 win.

 

[shields]

True need them to win.

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

to join duke, North Carolina, North Carolina state, Virginia ...a confrence much stronger on top and with more resources

One of these things is not like the others... one of these things just doesn't belong. NC State is a decent program but nothing special. They have not been above an 8 seed in the NCAAs since 2004 when they were a #3 seed. They have close to zero impact on the decline of Pitt, ND, and Syracuse.

The recruiting drop for Syracuse cited in the article is huge. Playing almost all games away from what was prime recruiting territory plus Boeheim's age likely has had the most impact. It will be very interesting to see how Syracuse replaces Boeheim when the time comes, as a bad hire could really cause problems.

 

[RU82]

Nice to see ND having a bad year.

I’ll be happy to see Mike Brey get **** canned by ND. I’ll never get over that “shut it down” comment he made to Chris Christie.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

One of these things is not like the others... one of these things just doesn't belong. NC State is a decent program but nothing special. They have not been above an 8 seed in the NCAAs since 2004 when they were a #3 seed. They have close to zero impact on the decline of Pitt, ND, and Syracuse.

The recruiting drop for Syracuse cited in the article is huge. Playing almost all games away from what was prime recruiting territory plus Boeheim's age likely has had the most impact. It will be very interesting to see how Syracuse replaces Boeheim when the time comes, as a bad hire could really cause problems.

With all due respect, please go check out North Carolina state facilities, Their average attendance and their history.

 

[Russ Wood]

The recruiting drop for Syracuse cited in the article is huge. Playing almost all games away from what was prime recruiting territory plus Boeheim's age likely has had the most impact. It will be very interesting to see how Syracuse replaces Boeheim when the time comes, as a bad hire could really cause problems.

That's a fable.

On the Big East Syracuse team that was 30-5 in the 2009-10 season, and earned a No. 1 seed, they had kids from the DMV, Philadelphia and Texas to go along with some kids from NY & one from Canada.

Syracuse plays 18 or 19 home games out of 31 games overall. If they are going to push a narrative that they play almost all games away from what was a prime recruiting territory they should rethink that.

They shouldn't have problems recruiting NY, NYC, Philadelphia, kids in the NEPSAC, just because they're in the ACC.

I think the bigger issue with their recruiting is that they got caught cheating several years ago, and since then, they've lost a couple of assistants. Most notably Mike Hopkins who was at Syracuse from 1995-2017. Hopkins snagged Isaiah Stewart right from under Syracuse's nose.

Now, Boeheim's age is very likely being used against him by other programs.

 

[SHUSource]

Those schools (Pitt, Syracuse, BC) all left for a league that in a given year was almost as good/as good/slightly better than the Big East, but became geographically disconnected from their native footprints and lost recruiting cachet and have stumbled. Pitt also made a terrible coaching hire while Boeheim has simply gotten old. Even if he still has his fastball (who knows? Who even watches them anymore?) it's so simple to negatively recruit on a guy his age.

These schools all probably would make the same decision they made back then because the money was just too much to pass up -- it's a football world -- but as much as Boeheim lobbied against it then, he'd be twice as loud now, seeing how it has pointed them, slowly, toward irrelevance.

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

With all due respect, please go check out North Carolina state facilities, Their average attendance and their history.

I took your advice. I knew they have a huge home arena in a basketball-crazy state.

FWIW NC State is #71 this morning on kenpom, and 85th in the NET rankings, both of which have them at 11th in the ACC.

According to the NCAA stats, NCAA attendance 2020 Nebraska had the 11th highest average attendance last season in all of Division I basketball (15,605). NC State was 14th (15,150). Syracuse was #1 (21,704). ACC teams average 756 more fans per game than Big East teams last season. Heck, the SEC averaged 302 more fans per game than the ACC. I don't think attendance is driving the bus here.

Notre Dame beat NC State in four of the first five games since joining the ACC, and now have dropped the last three to NCSU. It is hard to explain how they have gotten worse than the Pack when clearly they were better when they entered the ACC.

Syracuse is 4-5 against NCSU since joining the league after beating the Wolfpack yesterday. This series has gone back and forth more, with Syracuse losing the previous three games.

Pitt is an amazing case. NCSU is a whopping 18-2 all-time against Pitt! Pitt won the first matchup when they entered the ACC and have dropped the last ten. That's amazing, although I think the Pitt decline has more to do with Dixon leaving than with having to play NC State every year instead of a Big East opponent.

 

[bac2therac]

things are cyclical but yes the move really hurt these programs. These programs are all shells of themselves and its going to get worse before it gets better

 

[matty666]

ND wanted the ACC as it assures them of easy football wins so they can stay near the top 10 even though every time they face a top tier team outside of the ACC in football they get curb stomped.

Basketball takes the hit for that reason. It’s where the cash is.
As for the BE schools conference doesn’t matter. No one will ever care again long term about Cuse and BC. Their days are past in both Bball and football

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Wasn’t it at least seven years ago, that Jim Boeheim was just about ready to retire. Was around the time of some possibly shady morals issues with his assistant .

 

[RU at the shore]

How is BC not the poster child for this argument ? Went from annual tournament team in hoops to bottom feeder and high level football to mediocrity.

 

[RU85inFla]

That's a fable.

On the Big East Syracuse team that was 30-5 in the 2009-10 season, and earned a No. 1 seed, they had kids from the DMV, Philadelphia and Texas to go along with some kids from NY & one from Canada.

Syracuse plays 18 or 19 home games out of 31 games overall. If they are going to push a narrative that they play almost all games away from what was a prime recruiting territory they should rethink that.

They shouldn't have problems recruiting NY, NYC, Philadelphia, kids in the NEPSAC, just because they're in the ACC.

I think the bigger issue with their recruiting is that they got caught cheating several years ago, and since then, they've lost a couple of assistants. Most notably Mike Hopkins who was at Syracuse from 1995-2017. Hopkins snagged Isaiah Stewart right from under Syracuse's nose.

Now, Boeheim's age is very likely being used against him by other programs.

Since when is a Syracuse home game in Syracuse's prime recruiting area? St. Johns, Seaton Hall, UConn, Rutgers, Georgetown and Villanova and the Big East tourney gave Cuse access to its prime recruiting area. They have lost all of that.

Russ - I am guessing you have never been to Syracuse or central NY.

 

[ecojew]

Nice to see ND having a bad year.

That would be nice in any sport!

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

Syracuse recruit home states from 2011 through now, per rivals:

2011 - Pennsylvania, Delaware, Rhode Island (national rank #15 by the other site)
2012 - New York, Maryland (national 43)
2013 - New Jersey, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey (national 8)
2014 - Massachusetts, Florida (national 38)
2015 - New Jersey, Virginia, New Jersey, New Hampshire (national 8)
2016 - New Hampshire, New Jersey, Connecticut (national 18)
2017 - New Jersey, Ontario, Ontario (national 38)
2018 - New Jersey, South Carolina, New Hampshire (national 43)
2019 - New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Florida, Quebec (national 33)
2020 - New Hampshire, Maryland, California (national 40)
2021 - Florida (national 70)
2022 - no commits listed

They were typically ranked around the 7th class in the ACC for the latter half of those years

 

[Skull83]

I must have somehow missed Notre Dame's final four and elite eight appearances as a member of the Big East.

 

[Night Man]

These things (conference strength) aren't directly testable and I think there are good points on both sides here. It's easy to point to Cuse and Pitt's issues:

Cuse was NCAA issues, or potential NCAA issues, plus perpetual uncertainty around Boeheim's future. They've outperformed in the tourney in the ACC despite that... (of all the memorable tourney games UVA has given us under Bennett, an easy top 5 is when Cuse beat them by pressing but not actually getting steals or even slowing them down. They broke the press easily time after time and the only explanation I have is that they were just not wired to execute with numbers and it somehow took them out of what they wanted to do on offense)

Pitt: easy. Dixon left and Stallings wasn't up to the task. Pitt's program was never a self-sustaining model imo. But I think their recruiting, esp with Rohrssen, was heavily reliant on NYC, and the ACC doesn't give you all those games in the NY market. They had that grit. Carl Krauser.

ND, well, they've had higher highs and lower lows in the ACC than they had in the BE (at least in the Doherty and Brey eras). Inconclusive.

Cuse and ND (and BC) really thrived on the BE brand. The regionality, the alumni and fans around NYC, the Catholicism (ok not Cuse). Pitt is a little different but seemed to rely on benefits of the BE to recruit, not that I think they would have kept that going with Stallings if they were in the BE.

 

[NightKnight]

BC blew up the Big East and they are 232- 270 46.2% since joing the ACC They're a woeful 183 -250 42.2% if you don't include there first two years in the ACC . In the Big East they were 455 -338 57.4%.

BC Football is 110 -93 54.2% since joining the ACC. In the Big East they were 94-71 57.0%.

Couldn't be happier to see BC, Cuse and UConn struggle in their post Big East years.

 

[Russ Wood]

Since when is a Syracuse home game in Syracuse's prime recruiting area? St. Johns, Seaton Hall, UConn, Rutgers, Georgetown and Villanova and the Big East tourney gave Cuse access to its prime recruiting area. They have lost all of that.

Russ - I am guessing you have never been to Syracuse or central NY.

I've been to Syracuse once to give a talk to students who worked at the campus radio station. That was back in the early 90s. I drove around the town and it was...kinda depressing tbh.

Syracuse has successfully recruited kids in NY.

Go back to my post and read the paragraph that begins with "I think the bigger issue with their recruiting is..." then read between the lines and you'll get to the crux of their recruiting issues.

 

[LotusAggressor_rivals]

BC and Pitt are just not as talented as they were in their heyday. Syracuse's problem is tactical to some degree. Boeheim's 2-3 zone was effective because for a long time, the perimeter shooting was not that great in the BE, or in college basketball in general. That's changed. Good 3 point shooting teams have always given Syracuse trouble, and there are more of them now. There were several occasions where RU gave them all they wanted when they had Shields, Coleman, and Douby.

 

[Colbert17!]

Since Digger left in 91, the Irish have been to a grand total of 3 Sweet 16s in the past 30 years.
In that same time period Syracuse made it 11 times and the Final Four 4X.
Notre Dame is tied with Rutgers for the most appearances in the Final Four in school history. In 18 years in the BE they won a grand total of one regular season championship.
Just like in football the name is bigger then the performance. Only in basketball the gap is wider.

 

[bac2therac]

Notre Dame needs to ditch Brey and infuse new blood in their system, ditto for Syracuse. Until both programs do that they will be mired in mediocre state much like RU womens hoops is with CVS

 

[pawildcat_rivals209725]

With Rutgers rediscovering some of its mojo in BB, Maryland usually a strong competitor, and improved recruiting at Penn State, I think the B1G has made some inroads into what used to be prime Big East and ACC recruiting territory. It remains to be seen if the recent success at Penn State will continue. They need to make a good hire.