NCAA Tourney Changes?

[runrutgersrun]

This isn’t the NCAA, this is Greg Stanley making sure his expanded SEC can get a ton of teams in.

Agreed ^^. What is the only other college sport/event that the two new Super Conferences might possibly be interested in other than football/ football playoffs....maybe men's basketball/March Madness????? Multiple question marks totally intended . Isn't this the only other sport that makes money on its own? What a surprise! I'm immediately suspicious of anything involving a "fresh look" proposed by an SEC commissioner lol. Go RU!

 

[bac2therac]

Would be awful

Why even play a regular season

 

[The RUT]

The point is, Cinderella runs are NOT an “outlier.” They happen every single year to varying degrees. St. Peter’s just happened to be an extreme version of Cinderella because they’re such a tiny school and were a #15 seed.

Correct, which is why tv numbers for it were good.

Does anyone know a way to track down tv ratings from past ncaa games? There has to be a website for that or something right?

 

[NickRU714]

Correct, which is why tv numbers for it were good.

Does anyone know a way to track down tv ratings from past ncaa games? There has to be a website for that or something right?

So sporting events should be designed with maximizing TV ratings as a priority?

They should just make the Big Ten Championship Game Ohio State v. Michigan every year. Think of the ratings!

Doesn't matter if a better team is left out. As long as TV numbers are good.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

You don't think that if St. Peter’s played in the B1G and: received an equal share of B1G TV revenue so St. Peter’s could pay its coaches better, have a staff as big as other B1G teams and had a recruiting budget the size of other B1G members, that St. Peter’s could not grow its program to the point where it is frequently in the NCAAT via an at-large bid?

Yes, I think that. They are still in Jersey City, small campus. I suppose you could add more "IFs" until you have "IF'ed" St. Peters to have all Duke's advantages. Plus they would have to play football if in the B1G.. how would St. Peters manage that?

 

[The RUT]

So sporting events should be designed with maximizing TV ratings as a priority?

They should just make the Big Ten Championship Game Ohio State v. Michigan every year. Think of the ratings!

Doesn't matter if a better team is left out. As long as TV numbers are good.

You’re acting as though this is what I want. I don’t.

I’m just saying this is what it is and it’s happened whether you guys like it or not

 

[Russ Wood]

Thanks for the miniscule correction.

Do the 15 seeds?
14 seeds?
13 seeds?

Point proven.

Many coaches I talk to don't think it is right to have those seeds in the first four because many are AQ. They think at-large teams should be in the first four.

 

[Russ Wood]

Yes, I think that. They are still in Jersey City, small campus. I suppose you could add more "IFs" until you have "IF'ed" St. Peters to have all Duke's advantages. Plus they would have to play football if in the B1G.. how would St. Peters manage that?

My point being that plenty of people make this argument that if you take a smaller school and made them play the schedule of a bigger program they wouldn't do well.

Well no kidding. They'd be competing at a disadvantage, especially a financial disadvantage.

I'm saying put that smaller school in the big boy conference and give them all the advantages that all the teams in that conference have and let's see how they do.

Duke is a good comparison. Jersey City has about the same population as Durham. Take Duke out of the ACC and put them in the MAAC with a MAAC budget. How quickly would their program start struggling?

 

[Scarlet Shack]

The current format is great

However …with the transfer rules
, petal and NIL…the top players from low and mid majors are moving to the power programs from the bottom programs

The reality of the current rules is that a low major will never make a final four and St. Peter’s is about as far as thar can be expected

The reality of the current rules is a mid major can make the final four occasionally …but ain’t going to win a natty

But the joy of the tourney …ia in the process and inclusion for all.

Messing with that will screw it’s up

 

[Scarlet Shack]

The only addition to the tourney is maybe make it 72 and expand the first four to the first 8

No need for 96 teams

 

[kcg88]

So sporting events should be designed with maximizing TV ratings as a priority?

They should just make the Big Ten Championship Game Ohio State v. Michigan every year. Think of the ratings!

Doesn't matter if a better team is left out. As long as TV numbers are good.

Sports are literally entertainment so yeah, showing people what they want to see is a big part of it. The current system is also fair unlike your hypothetical example.

 

[kcg88]

I will say that with conference realignment at the lower levels I'm a little more sympathetic to the idea of putting the very bottom teams in play in games. The Horizon League these days is not what it was when it had Butler and Valparaiso for example.

 

[NickRU714]

Many coaches I talk to don't think it is right to have those seeds in the first four because many are AQ. They think at-large teams should be in the first four.

Ok, so?
Those coaches don’t make sense either then.

Simple yes/no:
The lowest seeds should be forced to play extra games.


If they are going to seed teams then how is making the lowest seeds play more a controversial idea?


Don’t want AQ in the “First Four”?
Then seed them higher.
Seed all AQ 1-32.
At-Large bids start at 33 to 68.

 

[NickRU714]

Sports are literally entertainment so yeah, showing people what they want to see is a big part of it. The current system is also fair unlike your hypothetical example.

Who is my change unfair to?
The AQ schools?

If AQ is so important why are they rewarded with lower seeds?

 

[Plum Street]

I agree and it would kill the importance of the regular season games in February and conference tournament play in early March.

Yea and the regular season is already secondary to most.

 

[The RUT]

My point being that plenty of people make this argument that if you take a smaller school and made them play the schedule of a bigger program they wouldn't do well.

Well no kidding. They'd be competing at a disadvantage, especially a financial disadvantage.

I'm saying put that smaller school in the big boy conference and give them all the advantages that all the teams in that conference have and let's see how they do.

Duke is a good comparison. Jersey City has about the same population as Durham. Take Duke out of the ACC and put them in the MAAC with a MAAC budget. How quickly would their program start struggling?

It’s just an irrelevant conversation to have. This is clearly all about viewership and TV $.

It’s literally the reason Rutgers is in the B1G.

No one cares how St. Peter’s would do. What matters is what’s the maximum viewership the team could offer.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

It’s just an irrelevant conversation to have. This is clearly all about viewership and TV $.

It’s literally the reason Rutgers is in the B1G.

No one cares how St. Peter’s would do. What matters is what’s the maximum viewership the team could offer.

You are missing the bigger point. Even if your right that Minnesota would bring more of their own fans as viewers to that one isolated game - changing the structure this way would vastly reduce college basketball viewership in general because so many other games during the regular season and conf tournaments (if they’d even still have them) would become meaningless. This would not be a net positive for the sport at all.

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

Many coaches I talk to don't think it is right to have those seeds in the first four because many are AQ. They think at-large teams should be in the first four.

I would support this change with one added wrinkle. Put the last four at large teams in a random live draw during the bracket reveal show to determine their match-ups.

It is still fair IMO for lower seeded AQ teams to have byes that higher seeded at large teams don't, because the AQ teams earned their spots by the rules. The last at-large selections have to play one more time to punch their ticket to the round of 64.

Won't happen IMO but I would like it.

 

[tico brown]

That’s fine, but doesn’t that make it watered down?

You’re basically saying the only reason there’s interest is because they have no business being there to begin with.

I think that in general, across the board, viewership would be up with a #15 seeded Minnesota.

The discussion isn’t, “wow look at what St Peter’s did!” It’s “what did Murray State vs USF do?”

I get it, everyone likes a Cinderella story, but keep things in perspective. That St Peter’s run was a historic run, so let’s not act like it happens often. And prior to the sweet 16, they brought zero value to the tournament.

So a 16-16, 11th Place team like Minnesota or Clemson is more deserving than a 28-4 Conference Champs like St Peters or Loyola-Chicago?

 

[Scangg]

It's wild to me that some people are anti AQ from smaller conferences. It's a huge part of what makes the tournament so great. Every conference, even the small ones get send their champion to biggest stage. It's awesome

 

[RUInsanityToo]

So a 16-16, 11th Place team like Minnesota or Clemson is more deserving than a 28-4 Conference Champs like St Peters or Loyola-Chicago?

St. Peters was 14-6 in the MAAC and 16-11 overall before the post-season. Iona was the best team in the MAAC all season. St. Peters got hot and went on a run in the post season and was a great cinderella story but it does not diminish the fact that for smaller conferences the regular season pretty much means squat. For these conferences the AQ is one and done tourney centric....which means that the best team is not always represented in the NCAA Tourney.

People are kidding themselves if they think this is not all about money even for the lower conferences. Why doesn't the AQ for conferences like the MAAC go to the regular season or overall best team???? Because tourneys even for lower conferences generate interest and make more money.

I love the NCAA tourney, but lets face it..... one and done neutral site tourneys are not the best format for selecting a champion. For my own tastes, double elimination would be better - even if it meant less overall teams. I want to ultimately see more of the best playing the best regardless of conference, cinderella story etc.

 

[NickRU714]

So a 16-16, 11th Place team like Minnesota or Clemson is more deserving than a 28-4 Conference Champs like St Peters or Loyola-Chicago?

Who is the better team?
I would say that team is more deserving.
Pretty simple model.

If St. Peter’s or Loyola-Chicago are so deserving, why are they seeded at the bottom of the list of teams?

Is a 6th place Richmond more deserving?
Just because they won 4 game in March?
The current rules say yes.
4 wins in March is more important than an entire season.

 

[NickRU714]

It's wild to me that some people are anti AQ from smaller conferences. It's a huge part of what makes the tournament so great. Every conference, even the small ones get send their champion to biggest stage. It's awesome

Great to you.
Some prefer a 68 teams tournment actually have the best 68 teams.
See the NCAA Baseball tournament.
Rutgers was clearly deserving based on an entire season performance.
Michigan got hot for a week and made the tournment instead. Real deserving.

And it’s not just smaller conferences.
Why should the ACC Champion make the CFP (4, 8, 12, 16 teams) even though they are ranked 23rd overall?

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

It's wild to me that some people are anti AQ from smaller conferences. It's a huge part of what makes the tournament so great. Every conference, even the small ones get send their champion to biggest stage. It's awesome

100% this. Look I don’t want the field to change at all. If it was up to me it would be a straight up field of 64.

But like everything else - this will be about money so I’d be supportive of any change that at least has a shot to add twists that bring more national interest to the largest number of games possible throughout the season. A proposal to strip AQs definitely would not do this.

If expanding the field of major conference teams in a material way is inevitable- even a field of 96 with seeds 1-4 advancing automatically to the round of 32 and seeds 5-8 advancing to the round of 64 could be constructed better than just killing the AQs to add more major conference teams. If they put rules like the NIT has in place that require a 500 overall record to qualify for at large (and maybe a minimum NET to deter teams from setting up weak schedules) the bubble would be further watered down but still could have enough twists to make following it interesting. Earning a top seed needs to matter. Changes that reward seeds 5-8 an edge over the bottom half of the bracket could add positive hype too.

 

[tico brown]

This is basically sending the non money conferences into the NIT so that the 13th place SEC/B10 team can be in the tournament. Have fun with 16-16 Northwestern vs 17-15 Creighton in the 8/9 game equivalent.

 

[NickRU714]

This is basically sending the non money conferences into the NIT so that the 13th place SEC/B10 team can be in the tournament. Have fun with 16-16 Northwestern vs 17-15 Creighton in the 8/9 game equivalent.

Why is it Northwestern fault they play a tougher schedule than Richmond?
Richmond just happened to win 4 games in a row in March vs the entire season results for Northwestern.

If Northwestern is objectively better that year than Richmond - why punish Northwestern?
If Richmond is the better team then AQ or not - Richmond would make it.

Want to address the discrepancy between "money" and "non money conferences"?
Sure go ahead.
But then Rutgers is giving back tens of millions of $$ per year so Richmond can have a better team.
I'll pass on that personally.

 

[Anon1751594821]

It's wild to me that some people are anti AQ from smaller conferences. It's a huge part of what makes the tournament so great. Every conference, even the small ones get send their champion to biggest stage. It's awesome

It makes the tournament great, BUT, it would be MORE fair that the regular season champ got to go instead of whoever wins their conference tournament.

Best of Luck,
Groz

 

[kcg88]

Great to you.
Some prefer a 68 teams tournment actually have the best 68 teams.
See the NCAA Baseball tournament.
Rutgers was clearly deserving based on an entire season performance.
Michigan got hot for a week and made the tournment instead. Real deserving.

And it’s not just smaller conferences.
Why should the ACC Champion make the CFP (4, 8, 12, 16 teams) even though they are ranked 23rd overall?

The number of people who want the 68 best teams is smaller than you think. If it was only about seeing the best teams and players then people would watch the NBA.

 

[NickRU714]

The number of people who want the 68 best teams is smaller than you think. If it was only about seeing the best teams and players then people would watch the NBA.

Good thing we don't use opinion polls for the Big Ten Championship game then.

Doubt anyone would ever want to see Rutgers, regardless of our record.
Just a rotation of OSU, UM, USC and Wisc.

 

[tico brown]

Why is it Northwestern fault they play a tougher schedule than Richmond?
Richmond just happened to win 4 games in a row in March vs the entire season results for Northwestern.

If Northwestern is objectively better that year than Richmond - why punish Northwestern?
If Richmond is the better team then AQ or not - Richmond would make it.

Want to address the discrepancy between "money" and "non money conferences"?
Sure go ahead.
But then Rutgers is giving back tens of millions of $$ per year so Richmond can have a better team.
I'll pass on that personally.

Just make it 68 teams from “Power Conferences” or whatever you call those Baseketball Conferences then and have the “lower rung” conferences play for the NIT. “Problem solved.”

 

[The RUT]

So a 16-16, 11th Place team like Minnesota or Clemson is more deserving than a 28-4 Conference Champs like St Peters or Loyola-Chicago?

That’s not what I said at all.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

It makes the tournament great, BUT, it would be MORE fair that the regular season champ got to go instead of whoever wins their conference tournament.

Best of Luck,
Groz

It is my hope that when the next inevitable expansion happens, they will rectify this by also giving autobids to outright conf winners if their NET is above 100. It’s horrible when teams that are 28-4 don’t get in because of one bad game.

 

[The RUT]

This is basically sending the non money conferences into the NIT so that the 13th place SEC/B10 team can be in the tournament. Have fun with 16-16 Northwestern vs 17-15 Creighton in the 8/9 game equivalent.

Yeah and they’ll bring more eyeballs in the 1st round than University of San Fransisco.

They’re non-money conferences for a reason. No one here is making the claim that it would be a better product or tournament without them.

You just need to recognize that TV and money drives the ship. Not a feel good mid major story.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Yeah and they’ll bring more eyeballs in the 1st round than University of San Fransisco.

They’re non-money conferences for a reason. No one here is making the claim that it would be a better product or tournament without them.

You just need to recognize that TV and money drives the ship. Not a feel good mid major story.

SF got an At Large bid. They would’ve still gotten in under the model proposed in the OP.

 

[The RUT]

SF got an At Large bid. They would’ve still gotten in under the model proposed in the OP.

Fair, but the point still remains.

A mediocre large university brings more value in a viewership sense vs a good mid major program.

The only time these mid majors bring value is when they go on a deep run. Ironically it’s the fact that they’re irrelevant that creates value

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Fair, but the point still remains.

A mediocre large university brings more value in a viewership sense vs a good mid major program.

The only time these mid majors bring value is when they go on a deep run. Ironically it’s the fact that they’re irrelevant that creates value

Your comparing apples and oranges though since a) teams like SF would still be in the field and seeded exactly where they are now in the new model and b) in this particular example SF played another at large caliber mid-major.

This particular discussion is not about viewing levels for 7-10 games. This is about 1-16 and 2-15 seed match ups and it’s not a good thing IMO for those games to be UK vs NW instead of a midmajor.

 

[The RUT]

Your comparing apples and oranges though since a) teams like SF would still be in the field and seeded exactly where they are now in the new model and b) in this particular example SF played another at large caliber mid-major.

This particular discussion is not about viewing levels for 7-10 games. This is about 1-16 and 2-15 seed match ups and it’s not a good thing IMO for those games to be UK vs NW instead of a midmajor.

Missed that it was specific to AQs.

My opinion is that this will shift to P5/P6 programs across the board.

It’s all about the money and the little guys don’t bring it.

 

[RUtrumpet92_rivals498139]

Missed that it was specific to AQs.

My opinion is that this will shift to P5/P6 programs across the board.

It’s all about the money and the little guys don’t bring it.

There is a large % of fans that would lose at least some interest as soon as their team is out if it becomes a power conference only tournament.

#14 NC State vs #1 Kansas in the Sweet 16 is less interesting to me than #14 UNC Wilmington vs Kansas.

 

[Scarlet83]

Isn't this the only other sport that makes money on its own? What a surprise! I'm immediately suspicious of anything involving a "fresh look" proposed by an SEC commissioner lol. Go RU!

Yup. The SEC will always SEC.

 

[NickRU714]

There is a large % of fans that would lose at least some interest as soon as their team is out if it becomes a power conference only tournament.

#14 NC State vs #1 Kansas in the Sweet 16 is less interesting to me than #14 UNC Wilmington vs Kansas.

There are also a percentage of March Madness fans who couldn't tell the difference between UNC Wilmington and NC State - just see #14 next to a name.

The tournament shouldn't be only "major conference" teams either.
The best 68 teams regardless of conference.

If you want to keep AQ - fine.
But if they are going to be seeded #16 they need to all play in the First.

Whether it's Rutgers as #16 or UNC Wilmington - lowest seeds play extra games.
It's literally the basis for every other athletic tournament in the world.