My Hot Take

[liveblue92]

I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to create my own to try to add a slightly negative, but rational opinion on the state of UK basketball:

I think the truth is that we’ve gone from a nearly unmatched 5 star caliber program in Cal’s first 5 years, that was nearly favored to win the tournament every year, to a 4 star caliber program that is “in the hunt” for title every year, but not at that top level anymore. We used to have a monopoly on top 10 talent, and that is no longer the case. As college basketball has become more watered down, so has the program. If we “expect” to dominate college basketball and be “the gold standard” every year, we are going to continue to be disappointed. I’m good with Cal staying as long as he wants because there aren’t any better alternatives currently. Call it a loser mentally all you want, but it’s reality.

 

[richbrookstomato]

I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to create my own to try to add a slightly negative, but rational opinion on the state of UK basketball:

I think the truth is that we’ve gone from a nearly unmatched 5 star caliber program in Cal’s first 5 years, that was nearly favored to win the tournament every year, to a 4 star caliber program that is “in the hunt” for title every year, but not at that top level anymore. We used to have a monopoly on top 10 talent, and that is no longer the case. As college basketball has become more watered down, so has the program. If we “expect” to dominate college basketball and be “the gold standard” every year, we are going to continue to be disappointed. I’m good with Cal staying as long as he wants because there aren’t any better alternatives currently. Call it a loser mentally all you want, but it’s reality.

Then why are we paying top dollar to be in that 2nd teir?

Cal makes $10 million/year to keep UK Basketball as the "Gold Standard of College Basketball"!!!

 

[yabbadabbadoo_rivals213851]

Can’t allow players to throw balls all over the place, run over people, allow opponents to snatch the ball right of their hands, miss bunnys one after another, play stall ball when these guys are athletes. ETC

 

[RunninRichie]

the answer lies inbetween the 2015 platoon system and the 2016 fbi probe

 

[gojvc]

the answer lies inbetween the 2015 platoon system and the 2016 fbi probe

You might be onto something.

 

[Baller Cal]

I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to create my own to try to add a slightly negative, but rational opinion on the state of UK basketball:

I think the truth is that we’ve gone from a nearly unmatched 5 star caliber program in Cal’s first 5 years, that was nearly favored to win the tournament every year, to a 4 star caliber program that is “in the hunt” for title every year, but not at that top level anymore. We used to have a monopoly on top 10 talent, and that is no longer the case. As college basketball has become more watered down, so has the program. If we “expect” to dominate college basketball and be “the gold standard” every year, we are going to continue to be disappointed. I’m good with Cal staying as long as he wants because there aren’t any better alternatives currently. Call it a loser mentally all you want, but it’s reality.

I said something similar in another thread. The days of dominating with Cal's system are long gone, and to me that's because the one and done are now welcomed virtually at every school as opposed to when it 1st started and we were getting most of them. They used to think they almost HAD to come here, but now they go where they want to go, even if that team stinks. (Edwards, Brown, etc). Cal is kind of pushing a snowball up a hill, but I take it for what it is: entertainment. I'd be MISERABLE if I had no hope before the season even started or even halfway through it and it's almost never the case here. We are very lucky to have what we have, but unhappy people will never look at it that way.

 

[TBCat]

The talent level isn't the issue. Sure we've gone from getting top 5 players to getting guys that are ranked 10th but still the 10th ranked guy is probably going to be an NBA superstar. In most years we are by far the most talented team in the country. Sometimes Duke edges us on that but still we are way better than the teams we lose to. The problem is the complete roster change over. Even with the earlier teams when we got the top 5 players, those guys had smooth transitions because they were supported by 3rd and 4th year players. Wall still had Patterson and company for example. The roster design took a major turn after the 2015 team. From that point on it was basically all players leave period. Even the ones that still need development. There might be a couple examples to the contrary like Richards last year, but not enough to make a Final Four caliber roster.

As I have stated on several threads tonight, and several last year as well, if you gave Cal a choice of rosters of his choosing to win a title the resulting roster wouldn't look anything like this. If feels like winning titles is no longer a concern of his and it's just about getting guys to the NBA. Any coach that aims to win a title does not have Askew starting tonight over Mintz. If you want to win games then you start and play the best 5. It feels like we are rolling with the 5 that have the best draft potential.

 

[liveblue92]

Then why are we paying top dollar to be in that 2nd teir?

Cal makes $10 million/year to keep UK Basketball as the "Gold Standard of College Basketball"!!!

Because from an economics perspective, there is a shortage of elite basketball coaching, that doesn’t meet our demand, therefore, we have to overpay for good but not great results.

 

[Gallipoli]

I posted this in another thread, but I wanted to create my own to try to add a slightly negative, but rational opinion on the state of UK basketball:

I give. Who is that in your signature?

 

[gojvc]

I said something similar in another thread. The days of dominating with Cal's system are long gone, and to me that's because the one and done are now welcomed virtually at every school as opposed to when it 1st started and we were getting most of them. They used to think they almost HAD to come here, but now they go where they want to go, even if that team stinks. (Edwards, Brown, etc). Cal is kind of pushing a snowball up a hill, but I take it for what it is: entertainment. I'd be MISERABLE if I had no hope before the season even started or even halfway through it and it's almost never the case here. We are very lucky to have what we have, but unhappy people will never look at it that way.

Of course, you’re free to see it any way you wish. I think though that watching almost everybody leave almost every year without a corresponding Final Four is the thing that is making people unhappy, in the basketball sense. With that said, I think Cal was very unlucky in regard to last season. I think with the shooting and the experience we were well suited for tournament basketball but I guess we’ll never know.

 

[Kingslayer07]

The talent level isn't the issue. Sure we've gone from getting top 5 players to getting guys that are ranked 10th but still the 10th ranked guy is probably going to be an NBA superstar. In most years we are by far the most talented team in the country. Sometimes Duke edges us on that but still we are way better than the teams we lose to. The problem is the complete roster change over. Even with the earlier teams when we got the top 5 players, those guys had smooth transitions because they were supported by 3rd and 4th year players. Wall still had Patterson and company for example. The roster design took a major turn after the 2015 team. From that point on it was basically all players leave period. Even the ones that still need development. There might be a couple examples to the contrary like Richards last year, but not enough to make a Final Four caliber roster.

As I have stated on several threads tonight, and several last year as well, if you gave Cal a choice of rosters of his choosing to win a title the resulting roster wouldn't look anything like this. If feels like winning titles is no longer a concern of his and it's just about getting guys to the NBA. Any coach that aims to win a title does not have Askew starting tonight over Mintz. If you want to win games then you start and play the best 5. It feels like we are rolling with the 5 that have the best draft potential.

Agreed on the Askew and Mintz point. Every other big time coach in the country starts Mintz over Askew. Hell, coach K started Goldwire and he's garbage lol. But there is no replacement for experience at pg, especially when playing good teams!

 

[Baller Cal]

The talent level isn't the issue. Sure we've gone from getting top 5 players to getting guys that are ranked 10th but still the 10th ranked guy is probably going to be an NBA superstar. In most years we are by far the most talented team in the country. Sometimes Duke edges us on that but still we are way better than the teams we lose to. The problem is the complete roster change over. Even with the earlier teams when we got the top 5 players, those guys had smooth transitions because they were supported by 3rd and 4th year players. Wall still had Patterson and company for example. The roster design took a major turn after the 2015 team. From that point on it was basically all players leave period. Even the ones that still need development. There might be a couple examples to the contrary like Richards last year, but not enough to make a Final Four caliber roster.

As I have stated on several threads tonight, and several last year as well, if you gave Cal a choice of rosters of his choosing to win a title the resulting roster wouldn't look anything like this. If feels like winning titles is no longer a concern of his and it's just about getting guys to the NBA. Any coach that aims to win a title does not have Askew starting tonight over Mintz. If you want to win games then you start and play the best 5. It feels like we are rolling with the 5 that have the best draft potential.

And if your mentality is to start the Mintz's over the Askew's, you don't get some of the best available talent year in year out and you are rarely in the hunt at the end of the season. I tell ya, we have some really dumb fans that can't seem to understand that having a CHANCE at the end almost every year is MUCH better than having a chance every 3 or 4 years! Maybe dumb is a too strong of a word. Greedy is a better word.

 

[hotelblue]

perspective. “being in the hunt every year” is basically right from his first state of the bluegrass speech. and that was more than optimistic to everyone.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

There was a reason Cal was still pursuing Cade Cunningham when we already had Askew locked up.

Askew is a two year player. No harm in that, but he's no OAD.

 

[bookerfan66]

There was a reason Cal was still pursuing Cade Cunningham when we already had Askew locked up.

Askew is a two year player. No hard in that, but he's no OAD.

Bad thing is that Askew likely thinks he's a OAD and leaves anyway.

 

[CB3UK]

I respect your take OP because youre being honest about the situation and how you feel about it instead of making excuses about why we are where we are and trying to convince others to turn a blind eye.

As Ive said several times today on the board.....at this point all this back and forth is just wasted breath. You either accept where we are or you dont. Its the trying to convince people that we're still legitimately in the title hunt with this roster rebuilding that has people pissed off.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Cal wanted that first title really bad. I don't think he wants another near as bad as he wanted that first one. Now, it's NBA this and NBA that.
Cal came to UK with a chip on his shoulder and and gunslinger mentality. Challenge anyone and everyone. Now, he's content and just doing his own thing.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Cal wanted that first title really bad. I don't think he wants another near as bad as he wanted that first one. Now, it's NBA this and NBA that.
Cal came to UK with a chip on his shoulder and and gunslinger mentality. Challenge anyone and everyone. Now, he's content and just doing his own thing.

I think there's some truth in this. I don't think he gauges most of his success by titles but rather by how well his NBA guys do. I think he wants to win at UK, and hates losing, but I don't think he has the same hunger he once did. He's still a great coach, but his "black hat rebel" looks more "white hat establishment" now. Maybe it's a sign of getting older.

 

[kybassfan]

There are a few questions that the negatory cry babies can’t answer every year.

1. Which 3 or 4 top recruits are you going to bypass every year to pick up a low four or high three that might come back 2 or 3 years?

2. Which low 4 or high 3 are you going to get that will happily be recruited over every single year? (Aka, you are stuck with low threes or worse)

3. Who are you going to get better than Cal.

I know. Crickets. Until you can answer those questions with a viable workable solution you are pissing into a fan. The best you can hope for is getting showered in piss. The worst is getting electrocuted where it hurts.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

I hate to say this but we haven't been the gold standard in a while. I didn't want to believe it but. Duke UNC and UConn have been better then us in the last 20 years. We have one title in the last what 22 years? Thats not elite. Now we have alot of wins and F4 finishes and tourney appearances.

But Kentucky has only one title in that span. It's getting to be unbearable to be honest. Cal is a better coach then Tubby for sure. But he's still only brought us one title. We all know that's all that matters here.

 

[RunninRichie]

I hate to say this but we haven't been the gold standard in a while. I didn't want to believe it but. Duke UNC and UConn have been better then us in the last 20 years. We have one title in the last what 22 years? Thats not elite. Now we have alot of wins and F4 finishes and tourney appearances.

But Kentucky has only one title in that span. It's getting to be unbearable to be honest. Cal is a better coach then Tubby for sure. But he's still only brought us one title. We all know that's all that matters here.

Arbitrary time lines are so fun smells like a duke or unc fan something isn’t right here

 

[kybassfan]

I think there's some truth in this. I don't think he gauges most of his success by titles but rather by how well his NBA guys do. I think he wants to win at UK, and hates losing, but I don't think he has the same hunger he once did. He's still a great coach, but his "black hat rebel" looks more "white hat establishment" now. Maybe it's a sign of getting older.

The NBA thing is a recruiting tool only. That said, if you think success is measured only by titles, you know nothing about contracts. Success is multifaceted and you can be assured, Cal is hitting his marks with flying colors. He’s going no where. He is running a stellar program. His bosses know it. None of them give a crap what a bunch of whiners blubber about on a board after a loss. Most are trolls from other boards. The rest are laughable sad sacks who judge their own worth by the team performance or lament their gambling losses.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

Arbitrary time lines are so fun smells like a duke or unc fan something isn’t right here

This is the annoying thing about this site. Yall are obsessed with weeding out trolls some of you get paranoid.

So I'm supposed to be happy with one title in 22 years?

 

[Baller Cal]

I hate to say this but we haven't been the gold standard in a while. I didn't want to believe it but. Duke UNC and UConn have been better then us in the last 20 years. We have one title in the last what 22 years? Thats not elite. Now we have alot of wins and F4 finishes and tourney appearances.

But Kentucky has only one title in that span. It's getting to be unbearable to be honest. Cal is a better coach then Tubby for sure. But he's still only brought us one title. We all know that's all that matters here.

If you say so. We have more titles than any of those schools.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

We can make the argument Duke has massively underachieved too. Losing with Zion Barrett and Cam in the Elite 8 was hilarious and embarrassing. But at least they have a few titles in the last 20 years.

Uconn hasn't been overall better then Kentucky, but they've got more titles in that span. And so does UNC.

Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[RACdad]

The NBA thing is a recruiting tool only. That said, if you think success is measured only by titles, you know nothing about contracts. Success is multifaceted and you can be assured, Cal is hitting his marks with flying colors. He’s going no where. He is running a stellar program. His bosses know it. None of them give a crap what a bunch of whiners blubber about on a board after a loss. Most are trolls from other boards. The rest are laughable sad sacks who judge their own worth by the team performance or lament their gambling losses.

Success at UK is not measured by titles? This is the only measurement a UK coach should have.

 

[Baller Cal]

We can make the argument Duke has massively underachieved too. Losing with Zion Barrett and Cam in the Elite 8 was hilarious and embarrassing. But at least they have a few titles in the last 20 years.

Uconn hasn't been overall better then Kentucky, but they've got more titles in that sp And so does UNC.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Id rather have had the ride we’ve been on the last decade. You and the rest of the gloom and doomers here aren’t getting anywhere. But by golly you try hard now!

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

If you say so. We have more titles than any of those schools.

Yea because of Rupp. The game has changed dramatically since then. UCLA has 11 but does anybody really think about them as the most elite program anymore? Of course not. They haven't been relevant in years.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

Bad thing is that Askew likely thinks he's a OAD and leaves anyway.

Will he even be old enough to be OAD? Have to be 19 and he reclassed to play this year.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

We can make the argument Duke has massively underachieved too. Losing with Zion Barrett and Cam in the Elite 8 was hilarious and embarrassing. But at least they have a few titles in the last 20 years.

Uconn hasn't been overall better then Kentucky, but they've got more titles in that span. And so does UNC.

Tell me I'm wrong.

And Duke was lucky to get to the Elite 8 at that.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

Id rather have had the ride we’ve been on the last decade. You and the rest of the gloom and doomers here aren’t getting anywhere. But by golly you try hard now!

I wouldn't I'll trade a few years in the N.IT for a chip any day. What good is it if you don't finish?

 

[CB3UK]

This is the annoying thing about this site. Yall are obsessed with weeding out trolls some of you get paranoid.

So I'm supposed to be happy with one title in 22 years?

That's their tried and true go to..."You must be a Louisville or North Carolina fan."



Uhhh....no.....we're UK fans with legitimate criticisms and concerns. It's a lazy rebuttal with nothing substantive.

 

[kybassfan]

Success at UK is not measured by titles? This is the only measurement a UK coach should have.

Of course not JUST in titles. No team is measured that way. If what you say were true, every single team playing now is failing miserably. Seriously, who could be naive and dense enough to believe that.

 

[Ky_Bred_Cat]

I now for the first time feel like Cal will not win another title at UK. Not on this current trajectory.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

That's their tried and true go to..."You must be a Louisville or North Carolina fan."



Uhhh....no.....we're UK fans with legitimate criticisms and concerns. It's a lazy rebuttal with nothing substantive.

So am I lol. But I think alot of us are getting tired of the we are young bs. And yes they will get better. They always do. Cals team usually gel in March. I'm not writing off this group. We don't even have Brooks back yet.

But man this is two years in a row losing to teams at Rupp we have no business losing too. So to say we should just all be ok with this is just laughable.

 

[kybassfan]

Yea because of Rupp. The game has changed dramatically since then. UCLA has 11 but does anybody really think about them as the most elite program anymore? Of course not. They haven't been relevant in years.

Of course this is the fallacy of measuring a program by a single parameter. I find it’s only done by trolls, fans of other programs and fans of limited mental range. The vast majority of fans can recite a litany of reasons why we are the top program of all time. We are the elite program. We are who everyone desires to be.

 

[Oneandnotdone38]

Of course this is the fallacy of measuring a program by a single parameter. I find it’s only done by trolls, fans of other programs and fans of limited mental range. The vast majority of fans can recite a litany of reasons why we are the top program of all time. We are the elite program. We are who everyone desires to be.

We used to be. We are still an elite program. Cal brought us back to elite status. We are not not the most elite program the last 20 years though. We've been overtaken. I don't see how that could be disputed.

And no we are not who everyone desires to be lol cmon man. I wish that was the case though.

 

[PTUKBlue]

There are a few questions that the negatory cry babies can’t answer every year.

1. Which 3 or 4 top recruits are you going to bypass every year to pick up a low four or high three that might come back 2 or 3 years?

2. Which low 4 or high 3 are you going to get that will happily be recruited over every single year? (Aka, you are stuck with low threes or worse)

3. Who are you going to get better than Cal.

I know. Crickets. Until you can answer those questions with a viable workable solution you are pissing into a fan. The best you can hope for is getting showered in piss. The worst is getting electrocuted where it hurts.

He passes up top recruits all the time he thinks are head cases or has to many “handlers”. He needs to change how he recruits some because he’s not getting the top 1-5 players every year. That doesn’t mean don’t recruit the top players but yes recruit and develop as well.

If you’ve got needs recruit those needs but if you’ve got a junior PF who’s great and need a wing or a center recruit that need and maybe don’t recruit 2 5 star PF and play them over your experience. Having the top freshman class is great if they're elite, but if you’re just recruiting the best available just to have the top class that hasn’t seemed to work. And we aren’t getting the best. So yes change it up. Recruit some guys you plan on bringing along and coach them up and recruit your needs.

And if you can get the top player at his position and the position you need get him. But stop recruiting guys who are 5 stars but arent sure fire lottery picks and treating them like they are. There’s maybe 5-10 elite one and done players every year that are legit. We used to get all that we wanted. Now we may get one. So yes, if you can get that guy get him and with the rest build a team.

Can you imagine having a solid core of guys with experience and then adding 1 or 2 extremely elite guys to it. Have a team of WCS, Darius Miller, Dom Hawkins type players and adding a Fox or Bam or Jamal Murray to a experienced team of great college players who may not be sure fire NBA players. That to me is the problem with our teams now. Recruit well enough that no 50-100 player wants to come here and stay but not well enough to have the type of elite talent that makes up for lack of experience.

So yes, that exactly what a lot of UK fans are saying. Cal needs to build a team and add elite talent to it. Like he did at Memphis and like Villanova and UNC and Kansas do. He started the one and done model and was successful at it before everyone else got in on the deal. Now he needs to recreate his model. Guys will come and play and stay if they feel they have a chance to start and play and not get recruited over in their senior and junior years. But it is hard to convince a really good college player to come and compete and know he will only start if Cal misses out recruiting his position and doesn’t land that 5 star. Can’t recruit 5 stars that need 3-4 years to be NBA lottery picks when they aren’t going to stay 3-4 years and expect to win titles. That’s what we are currently doing.

 

[kybassfan]

We used to be. We are still an elite program. Cal brought us back to elite status. We are not not the most elite program the last 20 years though. We've been overtaken. I don't see how that could be disputed.

And no we are not who everyone desires to be lol cmon man. I wish that was the case though.

We are an elite program. There is no debate on this by informed minds. Only by using a single parameter like you are doing can someone attempt to hide the fact that we dominate most every category of measurement. You are also using the other favorite of trolls, the arbitrary restriction of time frame. We are indisputably the peak of college basketball. Come back when you have a legitimate argument of broader spectrum. Cherry picked data such as you are using carries the stink of rival or troll or a bitter fan driven by deep ignorance. So boring.

 

[LadyCaytIL]

There are a few questions that the negatory cry babies can’t answer every year.

1. Which 3 or 4 top recruits are you going to bypass every year to pick up a low four or high three that might come back 2 or 3 years?

2. Which low 4 or high 3 are you going to get that will happily be recruited over every single year? (Aka, you are stuck with low threes or worse)

3. Who are you going to get better than Cal.

I know. Crickets. Until you can answer those questions with a viable workable solution you are pissing into a fan. The best you can hope for is getting showered in piss. The worst is getting electrocuted where it hurts.

I bet you wouldnt of guessed Wright or Tony at VA or Few would of done better than cal the past 5 years. face it, Cal's passing his prime and needs to change and realize you cant win with teams that struggle to shoot and too much turnover hurts too much in team building.