Murray State - NIT

[UKCatsFan10]

For the people that haven't watched Murray, it's easy to look at their tourney resume and say they didn't deserve to get in. Based solely on the numbers alone, they are right. As good as Murray is, the OVC simply doesn't get 2 schools in the tourney. It's a one-bid conference and always has been. Undefeated doesn't mean a thing if you don't win the game that matters. If Tennessee State goes 5-26 on the year but finds a way to win the OVC Championship, congrats! They are in the tourney and everyone else is out.

HOWEVER, for those that have seen Murray play, you can't convince me that they don't belong in the big dance. They have one of the best point guards in the country, and a supporting cast that I honestly believe could upset all but about 6 or 7 teams in the country on a given night. If you haven't watched Cam Payne you are missing out. As much as I love Tyler Ulis, he may not see the floor if Cam Payne was a Wildcat. He is what Ulis would be if he were 6'2". I'm sure that's not a popular opinion on this forum, but I honestly think he may be one of the top 5 PG's in the country. Really wish they had taken Ole Miss' spot in the tourney.

 

[NKYWildcat]

Murray was blown out by Valpo and Xavier...and lost to dreadful Houston. That is why they had to win the OVC tourney.

 

[MegaBlue05]

I enjoyed watching Murray play this year, felt awful for them for missing the dance and really think Payne is a great player. However, with the current setup, their resume was weak and beating going undefeated in the OVC isn't seen as impressive in the committee's eyes.

I believe Murray could fix that by trying to schedule games - probably road games - against some of the best A-10 and AAC teams to go along with trips to Power 5 schools they could beat but aren't terrible. Games with teams like Pitt, Minnesota, Texas A&M, Miami, etc. would help boost their computer numbers and give them a chance to prove they do belong on the court with higher-level D1 players.

I feel MSU was probably good enough to be in the tournament, but by the current selection criteria, they weren't.

 

[FtWorthCat]

I've seen them play about 4-5 games now, and they are better and more consistent than any team seeded #10 or lower in the NCAA. Put Murray in a conference with those teams, and Murray wins that conference. A couple of those teams are more talented than Murray, but not by a whole lot. Murray is more consistent, and gets more out of their talent than any of those teams.

I understand why Murray didn't get in, because of the computer rankings/strength of schedule. But anyone who has seen all of these teams play, and knows basketball, knows Murray is better than those teams. Don't give me any UCLA crap either, because Murray could have beaten SMU and UAB just the same as UCLA did.

 

[gracetoyou]

Originally posted by 3rex:
If Its me that doesn't read or understand then why is Murray playing in the NIT?

Maybe it's you that either doesn't understand or isn't objective....or both. How do metrics keep them from beefing up their schedule?
This post was edited on 3/23 11:00 PM by 3rex

"Beefing up your schedule" is a meaningless phrase in my opinion. For instance, Kansas strength is schedule was supposedly very strong but only because they played in an overrated Big 12 which the tournament has confirmed. So what's a true accurate way to determine if a schedule is truly strong. RPI, BPI...does not in reality do very good in determining that.

In my opinion the only fair way to take care of this is just begin awarding the regular season conference champs the automatic bid, which truly rewards the merit of an overall season & do away with the lucky run crap. But that's the individual conferences decision & not the committee's decision on who to award the automatic bid.

 

[Bluewest]

Originally posted by gracetoyou:

Originally posted by 3rex:
If Its me that doesn't read or understand then why is Murray playing in the NIT?

Maybe it's you that either doesn't understand or isn't objective....or both. How do metrics keep them from beefing up their schedule?

This post was edited on 3/23 11:00 PM by 3rex

"Beefing up your schedule" is a meaningless phrase in my opinion. For instance, Kansas strength is schedule was supposedly very strong but only because they played in an overrated Big 12 which the tournament has confirmed. So what's a true accurate way to determine if a schedule is truly strong. RPI, BPI...does not in reality do very good in determining that.

In my opinion the only fair way to take care of this is just begin awarding the regular season conference champs the automatic bid, which truly rewards the merit of an overall season & do away with the lucky run crap. But that's the individual conferences decision & not the committee's decision on who to award the automatic bid.

Actually this does make more sense.

 

[jerrycat75]

Murray would have won against Indiana !

 

[Bill Derington]

Marshalfan, The Louisville team that finished out the season wouldnt have finished in the top 4 of the ACC. I think Murray would beat Louisville on a neutral court. I think Payne would eat Louisville's pressure defense up.

 

[Saguaro Cat]

For those people that keep using the top 25 poll as evidence. They weren't in the top 25 on selection Sunday. They weren't even receiving votes. Oh, they used to be in the poll. But you don't get in the tourney because you used to be good. After the Belmont loss, the house built on sand crumbled and everyone saw through them.

So, do you have anything other than sports writers thought they were good but didn't any more?

 

[3rex]

The top 25 thing is, for the most part, a non factor anyway. It's always been understood that coaches don't see all these teams, and that for most schools the voting is done by an assistant AD or even a grad assistant in some cases.

But the fact that they were there BEFORE the loss to Belmont renders the point meaningless. And, no, Belmont doesn't count as a quality win.

 

[maysvilleky]

Originally posted by jrm693:

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:
I think they hosed themselves by choking against Belmont.

Beating up on other low and mid major non-NCAA teams is not making the case they deserved an AT LARGE bid.

They didn't choke against Belmont, Belmont hit 16 threes many with someone draped around them. MSU won 25 in a row thats good in any league and yes they deserved to be in the NCAA tournament... and thats not just my opinion Seth Davis, Jay Bilas and Dickie V shared that opinion plus they are whipping Tulsa like a dog on their home floor.

The way they lost their out of conference games is what doomed Murray. If they had beaten either Valpo or Xavier they would probably have been in but they were both blow-out losses.

As for the NIT...I think the team with the most motivation usually wins. I think a lot of teams are ready to throw in the towel if they don't make the NCAAT and the only reason they are still playing is for the revenue. So no surprise that a team like Murray (who feels like they were jilted) is more determined to win and prove people wrong. And remember they are playing other teams who also didn't make the NCAAT so it's not like they are beating a top tier team.
This post was edited on 3/24 9:13 AM by maysvilleky

 

[maysvilleky]

Originally posted by jerrycat75:
Murray would have won against Indiana !

That's just speculation. They couldn't beat Xavier, Valpo, Houston, OR Belmont when they needed to.

 

[bthaunert]

Originally posted by jrm693:

Originally posted by 3rex:
Obviously you don't know what an "at large" team is... Hint: Hampton, and most of your list, isn't one of them.

I will ask again. Name 1 quality win on their resume.

This post was edited on 3/23 11:15 PM by 3rex

I missed the "at Large" part just like you keep missing the ranked 25 part, as I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other I am going to bed, and I am genuinely sorry you don't enjoy Murray State they are a very good team.

Here is the thing about the Top 25. Sure, they were in it, but once they got beat, they dropped out and received only 2 votes in 1 poll and 1 vote in the other. They finished 39th in the AP poll and 38th in the Coaches poll. You can't use an argument about where they were ranked at one point in the season. You have to look at where they were ranked at the end. There are probably a few teams that were ranked in the Top 25 at some point who didn't make the tournament,

 

[Cats192]

I would have liked to have seen them in, but the resume' didn't support that. The fact that they're crushing an NIT team proves nothing.

 

[UKCatsFan10]

Originally posted by NKYWildcat:
Murray was blown out by Valpo and Xavier...and lost to dreadful Houston. That is why they had to win the OVC tourney.

To be fair, they were burdened with injuries early in the season when all of those losses occurred.

The top half of the OVC is very underrated this year, as it is many years. Five NBA players in 5 years from that conference, multiple strong showings in the NCAA tournament, and yearly upsets in the regular season... Eastern KY beat Miami on their own court by 30 points, Murray beat them.

I know you can't cross-compare scores that way with much accuracy, but the list goes on with those types of examples. Unfortunately Murray just ran into a Belmont team that was on fire during the OVC championship, a team that Murray handled by 20 points earlier in the year. That same Belmont team went on to take Virginia to the closing minutes in a 15/2 matchup during the first round of the tournament, while only hitting half of the amount of 3 pointers that they hit against Murray in the championship game. If they shoot the ball that well against Virginia, then UVA never makes it out of the first round.

Obviously I'm not saying they are world beaters, but I'm confident they would easily finish in the top half of the SEC this year. Yes their schedule is weak, but Prohm talks endlessly about trying to schedule tough OOC games. He was irate this season when they wouldn't allow Murray into one of the ESPN tournaments because he knew they had a NCAA caliber team. It was unfortunate that they weren't fully healthy yet when they played their early season resume-builder type games, and ultimately it may have ended up costing them a bid.

 

[catsfanbgky]

Murray can thank the NCAA and the all mighty dollar. When they switched to conf. tournaments Mo money, mo money), regular season is worthless for mid major conferences that only get one bid. Think about this, Murray State could have lost every game leading up to the conf tourney (0-30), won 3-4 games, boom they are in. That is just not what college basketball should be about. It makes the grind of the regular season of 30 games, useless.


















But they do need to schedule some bigger teams or play in some form of Bahamas, Atlantis, Maui, hell even Great Alaska Shootout or NYC preseason NIT tourneys. I wish there was a way, (there is) to reward reg season with a bid, then if different, the conf tourney champ with a bid. Then you may see some of these middle to lower .500 in conf teams from power conferences disappear. Which would be fine with me. Give me Cinderella over under achiever all day.

 

[3rex]

Murray would "easily finish in the top half of the SEC this year..."

not sure if serious....

 

[Violent Cuts]

I love how everyone comes on here every single week during the season and crushes the voters for their rankings and calls them idiots. But now that Murray State, a team that shouldn't even be in the conversation for an at large bid, isn't in the tournament all of the sudden this is the best indicator that they deserve to be in the tournament since they were ranked 25th one week.

 

[UKCatsFan10]

Originally posted by 3rex:
Murray would "easily finish in the top half of the SEC this year..."

not sure if serious....

Serious... When healthy, I'd put them between Ole Miss and Vandy in this year's standings, and maybe between Georgia and Ole Miss. Western beat Ole Miss on their own floor, and Murray handled them easily. Once again, can't cross compare scores but it is what it is.

This post was edited on 3/24 9:52 AM by UKCatsFan10

 

[3rex]

So because Murray handled Western easily, they would finish in the top half of the SEC?!?!

this can't be real...

 

[Violent Cuts]

Originally posted by UKCatsFan10:

Originally posted by 3rex:
Murray would "easily finish in the top half of the SEC this year..."

not sure if serious....

Serious... When healthy, I'd put them between Ole Miss and Vandy in this year's standings, and maybe between Georgia and Ole Miss. Western beat Ole Miss on their own floor, and Murray handled them easily. Once again, can't cross compare scores but it is what it is.

This post was edited on 3/24 9:52 AM by UKCatsFan10

There is absolutely not one single shred of evidence that this. If that's the case maybe Eastern Kentucky should have got in too? I mean they destroyed Miami who destroyed Duke.

 

[3rex]

Sounds like Eastern would finish in the top third of the ACC

 

[UKCatsFan10]

Originally posted by 3rex:
So because Murray handled Western easily, they would finish in the top half of the SEC?!?!

this can't be real...

Because Murray is good and the bottom half of the SEC sucks, yes. Obviously it's speculation, but you are also speculating that they wouldn't. Everyone wants to say the numbers indicate Murray shouldn't have gotten into the tournament, and I agree. However, if we want to exclusively play the numbers game then only UK, Arkansas, and LSU are ahead of them in the SEC. I went ahead and dropped them another 3 spots because I don't think the numbers tell the whole story and I think TAMU, Georgia, and Ole Miss would be ahead of them as well.

This post was edited on 3/24 10:06 AM by UKCatsFan10

 

[CATSrock_rivals215465]

Murray certainly could have finished in the top half of the SEC. Excellent guard play and shooting keeps them in with everybody but UK. Size of LSU and Ark would be tough.

 

[Macys Socks]

Originally posted by CATSrock:
Murray doesn't demand a home/home w major conf teams!

They do with Kentucky so it would stand to reason they expect it with others as well. No way UK is coming to Murray.

Murray lost, time to move on and stop whining about being "left out."

 

[3rex]

This thread is beginning to show why objective criteria & data is used to determine who gets in to the Big Dance.

All fans would love to see their favorite teams in.

 

[UKCatsFan10]

Originally posted by 3rex:
This thread is beginning to show why objective criteria & data is used to determine who gets in to the Big Dance.

All fans would love to see their favorite teams in.

Now this is something we agree on. I've said on multiple occasions that Murray should not have made it in. My point is just that there are a lot of worse teams that did make it in. If the criteria is to get the best 68 teams into the tournament, it's not the best system. However, if it is to get the deserving teams in and then reward the teams that won their conference regardless of the rest of their season, then it works perfectly. I don't think anyone would dispute that Murray was the best team in the OVC conference. They just weren't on the only night that mattered.

The system is what it is, but that doesn't mean I necessarily have to agree with it. It occasionally lets some very undeserving teams in, while keeping deserving teams out. I don't think this year is necessarily a case of that as Belmont is a good team and has the right to be there after knocking off Murray when it mattered. Some examples though are:



2013 Liberty (15-20): Ranked 299 in the AP polls and were 6-10 in the Big South Conference.2008 Coppin State (16-20): Started the year 2-19 vs D1 competition.2008 Mississippi Valley State (17-16): One Top 300 win, 3 wins over non D1 competition, ranked 323.
I'm sure there are more examples, but these are ones that stick out from recent years. There is something to be said for rewarding teams that win their conference, and if that's what the system is about then it works flawlessly as I said above. Let's just not pretend like the NCAA tournament is reserved exclusively for all of the best teams.

 

[3rex]

None of those were at large teams.

If I understand the rules correctly, any conference has the option of making their regular season champion the automatic bid qualifier.

If you opt for the almighty dollar, i.e. a conference tournament, then you have to accept the consequences....that being someone may be an upset tournament winner.

The fact is that the most glaring omission from this years tournament was Colorado State, not Murray State. Most analysts outside Dickiie V said as much in the days following the bids.

 

[ukfan79_rivals214498]

Murray absolutely DID NOT deserve an NCAA bid.

And honestly, isn't this better? You get a chance to finish the season 32-5, go to NYC (great trip), and hang a banner. BTW....if I were a Murray fan I'd be damn proud to hang an NIT champion banner

 

[UKCatsFan10]

Originally posted by 3rex:
None of those were at large teams.

If I understand the rules correctly, any conference has the option of making their regular season champion the automatic bid qualifier.

If you opt for the almighty dollar, i.e. a conference tournament, then you have to accept the consequences....that being someone may be an upset tournament winner.

The fact is that the most glaring omission from this years tournament was Colorado State, not Murray State. Most analysts outside Dickiie V said as much in the days following the bids.

Now we agree on two things. I've said a lot in this thread and others regarding Murray State, but one thing I haven't said is that they deserved to get in. I think they "belong" in the tourney in terms of talent and skill level, but they didn't do anything to put themselves in a position to get in. They had opportunities to take the decision out of the hands of the selection committee and failed to do so.

 

[Bill Derington]

3Rex, Murray ST would've finished in the top half of the SEC. You're putting way too much stock in early season losses, when they were without 2 starters.
The problem is they still wouldn't have gotten an at large bid even if they had split those losses, and still lost to Belmont in the championship of the OVC, thats the issue.
They are a better team than many at large teams in my mind. Indiana sucked, wanting to fire their coach, but they played tougher teams and lost, but lets reward them?

 

[3rex]

For the record, I wish Murray State had gotten in. Would've been another game that was "appointment TV" & that I would've looked forward to watching.

And I'm pulling for them to win the NIT.

 

[bookerfan66]

I hope they win the NIT.They are a very fun team to watch.

 

[Anon1678385964]

Originally posted by maysvilleky:

Originally posted by jerrycat75:
Murray would have won against Indiana !

That's just speculation. They couldn't beat Xavier, Valpo, Houston, OR Belmont when they needed to.

Remember this next time someone talks trash about Rob Morris beating us in the NIT a few years ago. We couldn't even beat Bobby Mo to advance to the NIT, but some people say we would have danced and competed in the NCAA tourney.

 

[Kats23]

Sorry Racer supporters but Murray did themselves in with their schedule and not winning the OVC tourney. They had a SOS of 202. 202! They played 3 tournament teams. (Belmont, Valpo, Xavier) They were run out of the building against 2 of them. I know they were missing two starters but when you're a bubble team excuses don't fly. Their best win was Belmont. Their best opponent played was Xavier. Yes, they won 20 plus and ranked in the Top 25 but that was the AP. The press will reward you when you win that many in a row even if you are playing high school teams. They knew the rules, didn't schedule a lot of tough non conference opponents, and then were crying when they didn't get the job done. UK is supposed to be the best team in college ball but if they fall short you think anyone outside the Commonwealth will say the National Champion isn't the Champs bc clearl UK was the best team all year. Them the breaks.

By the way. Take the NIT results with a grain of salt. This happens every year it seems. One team is left out, gets all charged up and plays like the National Title is on the line every game to try to prove they belonged in the first place. I would venture to say most teams are playing hard in the NIT but are not going to lay it on the line like it looks like Murray has.

 

[PurchaseCat]

They were 24th in the Coaches Poll same week they were 25th in AP..

No need to be sorry for Racer fans. Everyone knows how it goes. The power conferences have built in schedule advantages. Mediocre teams get assured home games against Top 25 opponents. Win one of those and you have "quality" win - even though you may finish with a losing record in the conference. After Murray got healthy they won 25 in a row - along the way they beat Evansville on the road (who beat Northern Iowa shortly after that) as well as Illinois State (who beat Wichita State in the MVC tourney). In the NIT they have destroyed UTEP, who beat Xavier and took Arizona down to the wire, as well as Tulsa.

But under the current system all they had to do after that first month was slip up once, to a team that banked in TWO 3-pointers (as well as won on a fall away 3-pointer) to get knocked out - even though they were in the Top 25 of both polls just the prior week.

Anyway - I actually think the NIT may generate more excitement for Murray in the long run. But it won't make it any easier to get quality teams to agree to schedule them in the non conference.

 

[3rex]

The idea that quality teams are afraid to schedule Murray State is absurd.

Other small school/mid majors schedule each other & find a way to play a quality schedule, which begs the question...

Is it just Murray State that all these teams are supposedly scared of?

 

[LordEgg_rivals16573]

murray > indiana

 

[Violent Cuts]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:
They are a better team than many at large teams in my mind.

That's the point. In your mind. There is absolutely zero evidence that they were better. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that they're much, much worse. You're emotionally involved in the subject and just can't think objectively.

 

[UKCatsFan10]

It's not that quality teams are scared to play Murray, I just think it's tough for mid-majors to determine before the season how good they are going to be on a national scale and then schedule accordingly. Accompany that with the injury bug that hit when they happened to have their tough OOC games scheduled and before you know it you've missed out on all your quality wins and it's not even January yet. The major conferences are fortunate enough to play resume building teams throughout the entire season. Mid-majors only get a month and a half. Then they have to balance games they can win with games that will be resume builders. Sure, they can schedule a really tough OOC but if the team isn't as good as expected or injuries happen then all of a sudden you are 6-8 going into conference play with no good teams left to play. Sure, you got a top 50 win and a few top 100 wins, but it's certainly no resume that's going to get you into the tournament without winning your conference.

Here is an excerpt from an article by Murray's coach Steve Prohm that addresses the scheduling issue. The last paragraph is the one that seems to bother him the most, as I've heard him address this several times.

"I had someone ask me the other day about our schedule: Why don't you go on the road more? We have the second-most road wins in Division I, and the best winning percentage on the road aside from Kentucky. We were 11-1.



Scheduling at Murray State is extremely, extremely difficult. You start with your 16 conference games. That gives you eight home and eight road. We have to play one "buy" game against a high-major on the road. We went to Xavier. We like to have 10 games with a balance of home and road against some of the elite mid-majors: as in Illinois State, Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Evansville, Valparaiso. Very good basketball teams.



And what I always want to do from there is play in an elite-level, neutral-floor tournament. For 2014-15, we had been knocking on their door trying to get in one of the ESPN tournaments: Please let us back in. Especially this year, because I knew I had an NCAA Tournament-type team, especially led by a superstar point guard in Cam Payne. We weren't able to get in."