More Upperclassmen Leadership

[jamsession3]

There are just moments, practices, interviews and games in which Juniors and Seniors need to be the ones that step up and take ownership. This is not a knock on Grayson or the talented freshmen and sophs. I just have come to a place, in maturity, where there is a need for more contribution from upperclassmen then just one person.

I'm not in practice, so I don't see or hear what does Vrank. I just know this season, thus far, could benefit from more Juniors and Seniors.

 

[denverexpat]

There are just moments, practices, interviews and games in which Juniors and Seniors need to be the ones that step up and take ownership. This is not a knock on Grayson or the talented freshmen and sophs. I just have come to a place, in maturity, where there is a need for more contribution from upperclassmen then just one person.

I'm not in practice, so I don't see or hear what does Vrank. I just know this season, thus far, could benefit from more Juniors and Seniors.

Look at next year or the year after - where will it come from? Having 5 star freshman means you will have no consistency on or off the court....the OAD era....its sucking the air out of CBB from the blue blood programs

 

[SwatX1]

It's hard to turn down the top talent, but just out of curiosity, I looked at the 5 players getting the most minutes on every team currently ranked ahead of us. Those 8 teams have the following taking up most of the minutes:
Senior- 14
Junior- 7
Soph- 12
Fresh- 6
None of them have more than one freshman starting.
Again, how do you turn down the top talent? I don't want to give up Zion, or RJ, or Cam, or Tre next year. But those 4 will likely give us another team with 4 freshmen starters.
You can bring in the non OAD's, but if they are not happy with their playing time, and they see another #1 class coming in the next year, you are going to lose a lot to transfer. I don't think the coaches are doing anything wrong by recruiting these guys. Who all would like to see Zion and RJ de-commit right now?
Other than a rules change where you have to stay more than one year, I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't think 3-5 freshmen starting every year is the answer. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. I guess the real question is how do you bring in good players, who will go for a couple years with minimal playing time, until it's their turn? Do you limit yourself to only 2-3 OAD players and then the best 3 or 4 stars you can get? I think if K had said we are only taking Cam and RJ, and don't have room for Tre or Zion, we would be ready to hang him. It's a difficult balance.

 

[SwatX1]

I also looked to see how the last 10 national champions were staffed by class. These aren't necessarily the starters, they are the 5 that averaged the most points.

2008 Kansas So, So, Jr, Jr, Sr
2009 unc. So, So, So, Jr, Jr
2010 Duke So, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2011 uconn Fr, Fr, Fr, So, Jr
2012 uk Fr, Fr, Fr, So, So
2013. U of L So, Jr, Jr, Jr, Sr
2014. Uconn. Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr, Sr
2015. Duke Fr, Fr, Fr, Jr, Sr
2016. Nova. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2017. Unc. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr. Sr

3 out of 10 had more than one freshman
7 out of 10 had at least one Senior
Totals- 12 seniors. 17 juniors.
10 sophomores. 11 freshmen
More juniors and seniors than freshmen and sophomores.

With OAD as big a part of the game as it is, it would be interesting to know how the next 10 champions will be staffed.

2011, 2012, and 2015 shows that you CAN win it all with a freshman heavy squad.....so now that I've got all that posted, I'm not even sure what I was trying to show!! Mostly just curious I guess about what the most recent national champions average player class was.

 

[jamsession3]

Don't get the wrong idea, I love the 4 freshmen coming in. I just believe(and know) the starting center and bench should have juniors and seniors that get playing time and contribute to certain growing pains.

Marvin and Wendell would be in better shape if the pg, sg or sf were juniors and seniors. Just a thought.

 

[acc hoops]

One more strong guard off the bench would do wonders for this team. Giving each of the starting guards 4-5 minutes rest would make them fresher at the end. It will happen next year with AOD and Goldwire providing positive bench minutes .

 

[jamsession3]

I also looked to see how the last 10 national champions were staffed by class. These aren't necessarily the starters, they are the 5 that averaged the most points.

2008 Kansas So, So, Jr, Jr, Sr
2009 unc. So, So, So, Jr, Jr
2010 Duke So, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2011 uconn Fr, Fr, Fr, So, Jr
2012 uk Fr, Fr, Fr, So, So
2013. U of L So, Jr, Jr, Jr, Sr
2014. Uconn. Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr, Sr
2015. Duke Fr, Fr, Fr, Jr, Sr
2016. Nova. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2017. Unc. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr. Sr

3 out of 10 had more than one freshman
7 out of 10 had at least one Senior
Totals- 12 seniors. 17 juniors.
10 sophomores. 11 freshmen
More juniors and seniors than freshmen and sophomores.

With OAD as big a part of the game as it is, it would be interesting to know how the next 10 champions will be staffed.

2011, 2012, and 2015 shows that you CAN win it all with a freshman heavy squad.....so now that I've got all that posted, I'm not even sure what I was trying to show!! Mostly just curious I guess about what the most recent national champions average player class was.

The bottom line is win a National Title, but who did 2015, 2012, and 2011 play? I know, Butler was good...but that team was mostly Junior and Seniors.

 

[poppycat]

I also looked to see how the last 10 national champions were staffed by class. These aren't necessarily the starters, they are the 5 that averaged the most points.

2008 Kansas So, So, Jr, Jr, Sr
2009 unc. So, So, So, Jr, Jr
2010 Duke So, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2011 uconn Fr, Fr, Fr, So, Jr
2012 uk Fr, Fr, Fr, So, So
2013. U of L So, Jr, Jr, Jr, Sr
2014. Uconn. Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr, Sr
2015. Duke Fr, Fr, Fr, Jr, Sr
2016. Nova. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr, Sr
2017. Unc. Fr, Jr, Jr, Sr. Sr

3 out of 10 had more than one freshman
7 out of 10 had at least one Senior
Totals- 12 seniors. 17 juniors.
10 sophomores. 11 freshmen
More juniors and seniors than freshmen and sophomores.

With OAD as big a part of the game as it is, it would be interesting to know how the next 10 champions will be staffed.

2011, 2012, and 2015 shows that you CAN win it all with a freshman heavy squad.....so now that I've got all that posted, I'm not even sure what I was trying to show!! Mostly just curious I guess about what the most recent national champions average player class was.

You made a good point. UK in 2012 is thought of as a FR team. Fact is Fr only got 55% of total mins played. Sixth man was a Sr. who averaged
9.9 ppg. non fr averaged 30+ pts per game for the 3 (Jones. Lamb & Miller)

BTW.. UK faced # 4 IND, #3 Baylor , UofL , and Kansas in their last four games of the tourney to win the title.

UK had 2 OADs to be drafted #1 and #2 in the NBA draft that year
That don't happen often, but Duke's FR could come close this year.

Just saying that #1 and #2 draft picks plus another 1st round and 3 older players
for top 6 is hardly a typical Fr heavy team

 

[jamsession3]

I'm disappointed Grayson was our only contributing Upperclassman.

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

I'll go ahead and say, I'm not looking forward to next year. Yea I'll watch and pull for them, but it sucks not having a Quinn or Grayson to root for.

 

[Ioliva]

You need veterans. Unfortunately it’s not going to happen for awhile. I don’t think we have a chance next year at all. Bolden can lead but he doesn’t have enough minutes to be a true veteran. Just because he’ll be a junior is meaningless.

 

[dbav]

So, will Javin, Goldwire, AOC, and Bolden not be here?

 

[Nycdoc01]

IMO the problem is K doesn’t give guys minutes to develop during the year. For example AOC could have been given minutes every single game. Sure he’d make mistakes but I think it would be worth it come tourney time. Let them play thru mistakes during the season and learn and develop. We could have used him off the bench to provide a spark. Maybe he hits a 3? We needed outside shooting when GA and Trent were cold. Heck how bout just to give guys a breather? It’s same story year in and year out. White could have gotten more consistent minutes. Maybe Goldwire some minutes. Vrank. That way they’d be ready next year to contribute. Just my thought.

Many of the upperclassman on these other winning teams were not top 20 prospects. They developed as players and leaders over the course of time. But that can only happen with consistent PT.

 

[denverexpat]

So, will Javin, Goldwire, AOC, and Bolden not be here?

How much did they play this year? Or will they get time next year? Yes they may be here but they are not set up to be the leaders

 

[jamsession3]

Player development is essential. Jack, Javin, Bolden and AOC can truly contribute next year, but what must really happen is Duke having an identity.

 

[MikeD2891]

So, will Javin, Goldwire, AOC, and Bolden not be here?

Do you honestly see any of them being able to step up into a leadership role? Bolden is the only one in that group I wouldn't argue with, the rest have never shown an ounce of leadership during their meager playing time.

 

[SwatX1]

I'll go ahead and say, I'm not looking forward to next year. Yea I'll watch and pull for them, but it sucks not having a Quinn or Grayson to root for.

Come on man!! It's gonna be fun next year!! I don't know how far we will go, but we are gonna make some highlight reels!!

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

Come on man!! It's gonna be fun next year!! I don't know how far we will go, but we are gonna make some highlight reels!!

You're right, just bummed right now. At least next year we won't have t be sad senior night or not having that senior back after the last game....#graysonIloveyouman!

 

[UKat51]

You're right, just bummed right now. At least next year we won't have t be sad senior night or not having that senior back after the last game....#graysonIloveyouman!

As a life-long UK fan, I despise the OAD garbage college basketball is now enduring. Kentucky was the first to adopt the strategy and has had some success with that mode of recruiting. 2012 was our last championship year because of the upperclassmen involved in that class. The 2015 38-1 NCAA final four team was the last class with any semblance of upperclassman players of any really good skill set. Each year the team gets younger and younger. 2018 team’s first seven players were 5 freshmen and 2 sophomores. Decision making in the last four minutes of tournament games is critical. Most young players want to play “hero ball” and forget team ball in crunch time of those games.

The blue blood programs are all playing the “race to the bottom” game with the OAD players. Duke has a great recruiting class for next year. Failure to win it all will likely leave the program in worse shape the following year with upperclassman team leadership

UK choked this year because of a lack of team leadership. Easiest route to the final four that we have had in my memory, but unable to take advantage due to team immaturity.

I hope all schools will put pressure on the NBA to change its rules to allow OAD players to be drafted out oh high schools or have a two years in college or equivalent experience.

Just an opinion from someone that enjoys college basketball, college rivalries and only wants the game to be successful.

 

[jnastasi]

I'll go ahead and say, I'm not looking forward to next year. Yea I'll watch and pull for them, but it sucks not having a Quinn or Grayson to root for.

I’ll be as excited as I was for this team. It’ll be fun and frustrating at the same time. I don’t expect them to win a national title as I’m a firm believer that you need at least 2 upperclassmen playing big minutes but I do expect them to compete similar to this years squad.

 

[BlueDaveil]

I'll go ahead and say, I'm not looking forward to next year. Yea I'll watch and pull for them, but it sucks not having a Quinn or Grayson to root for.

On the flip side, K tends to be pretty stubborn about playing our “leaders” no matter if they are the best players on the team. How many times did some of us wish Matt jones or Tyler Thornton had fewer minutes. Not having one of those kids might give him a bit more freedom with lineups and who earns playing time.

 

[dukephysics]

I think some of you need to give the end of this season a little time. I was really excited about the team this year. I am really excited about the team we have for next season. Some of you act like we're the Cavs and Lebron just decided he's going to LA. We are going to be one of the handful of teams with a legit shot at winning it all next year. Will we win it all? The odds aren't good and we'll need to stay healthy and get a few bounces (like, you know, every year for every team). UNC has some veterans coming back - maybe you should think long and hard if you'd rather have their squad heading into next season.

 

[christophero]

I think we win every one of our games by double digits next year. Let the hype begin! Seriously hype aside, Elite 8 ain't too bad for a team with 4 starting freshman, regardless of talent. The early exits are the ones that are hard to stomach. I would have preferred Final Four don't get me wrong but Elite 8 is, well, elite.

 

[dukiejay]

I think there’s a lot of growing pains with young teams, obviously. I don’t think we lost yesterday, though, because of our youth. Our freshmen this past year seemed very seasoned for their age.

Now, yes, more veterans do mean a lot. I don’t think they need to be your best players, though. Guys like Vrank, Marques, Javin, AOC and Goldwire are the kind of kids who can do that. Next year? Maybe not. But two examples above, Matt Jones and Tyler Thornton, were both called great leaders and captains by K....they weren’t great players, per se.

 

[LouisiAaron]

During this one and done time we won't have elite players as seniors. It just won't happen

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

I'll be ready when season rolls around, you just get attached to kids, especially seniors and then appreciate guys like Carter and Bagley, then realize it over as fast as it started. Really makes you sad. Next year will be fun but the guys this year won't be forgotten as easily as most one and dones.

 

[Alaskan_Assassin_21]

During this one and done time we won't have elite players as seniors. It just won't happen

Even Grayson should have/would have declared after last season if not the "disciplinary issues"

We are solid at developing Post projects for example Zoubek and Plumlee. That is why I expect Jack White to be starting his senior season, at the stretch 4

 

[christophero]

Even Grayson should have/would have declared after last season if not the "disciplinary issues"

We are solid at developing Post projects for example Zoubek and Plumlee. That is why I expect Jack White to be starting his senior season, at the stretch 4

I have a sneaking suspicion Jack White will be a serious baller by his senior year.

 

[Jake1985]

I said it in another thread. Jack can rebound, is smart and has energy/Max effort. He can shoot the ball but just needs that confidence in games. As a Jr next year, he will be a vocal guy that could and I honestly mean could find his role; not just on the defensive side of things. I am really rooting for him.

Alex is the guy most eyes will be on

 

[Jake1985]

Would be nice to bring in some grad guys

 

[Alaskan_Assassin_21]

Would be nice to bring in some grad guys

Along the same lines, not sure anyone pointed out that Newman (KU guard) was a transfer - left Mississippi State after 1 season. If we want more leadership experience this would be the current pathway

 

[GillJET]

Along the same lines, not sure anyone pointed out that Newman (KU guard) was a transfer. If we want more leadership experience this would be the current pathway

I’ve loved our last few transfers, Hood, Curry and Dahntay Jones.

 

[Alaskan_Assassin_21]

I’ve loved our last few transfers, Hood, Curry and Dahntay Jones.

Agreed. Quite interesting all 3 stayed for a different amount of time at Durham.

I believe Roshown McLeod in '97 was the first (?)

 

[GillJET]

Agreed. Quite interesting all 3 stayed for a different amount of time at Durham.

I believe Roshown McLeod in '97 was the first (?)

Yeah that’s the only other one I can think of.

 

[BlueDaveil]

Don’t forget Sean Obi!

 

[dukiejay]

I think Duke will explore options. You’ll probably hear some names in the coming weeks.

The end of the season just means the games are over. There will be lots of activity around the program over the course of the next month.

 

[GillJET]

Don’t forget Sean Obi!

Damn I sure did forget him.