More impressive....Meeks' 54 or Issel's 53?

[Panthur]

I disagree. Jodie was a great shooter, but he had a bunch of uncontested shots against UT. Issel was double teamed, constantly. They may play better overall team defense today, vs 1969-70, but individually, Issel had a tougher time than Jodie did. Had there been a 3 pt shot, Issel may have had 4 or 5 more pts in that game. With 18 rebounds to go along with the 53 pts, and no 3 pt shots, Dan has to win this discussion.

Once again, entirely true: in your imagination.

The only reason this whole thread even went long than 2 or 3 posts to begin with is almost no one has video of that actual Issel vs. Mississippi game. The second anyone actually posts that up here, this is over forever.

 

[kyblue22]

Issel.

It's not even close, IMHO.

No 3 point shots. He did it the hard way.

Agree

 

[Ben101er]

Once again, entirely true: in your imagination.

The only reason this whole thread even went long than 2 or 3 posts to begin with is almost no one has video of that actual Issel vs. Mississippi game. The second anyone actually posts that up here, this is over forever.

I'm glad you posted the video. Good to see the old Cats. However, I am not sure that this proves your point. In fact, if anything, I think it proves the point of those who vote for Issel. The video clearly shows that Adolph didn't run the offense through Issel. Even though he took more shots, in his game, he probably had the ball in his hands less. He probably had to get some offensive put backs, to get his points, and one of the reasons he had 18 rebounds.

 

[BillyBones]

I'm glad you posted the video. Good to see the old Cats. However, I am not sure that this proves your point. In fact, if anything, I think it proves the point of those who vote for Issel. The video clearly shows that Adolph didn't run the offense through Issel. Even though he took more shots, in his game, he probably had the ball in his hands less. He probably had to get some offensive put backs, to get his points, and one of the reasons he had 18 rebounds.

Ben you are absolutely correct. Very observant.

 

[fearthebluecat]

Argument for Meeks....defense is much tougher today and many of his shots were contested.

Argument for Issel....none of his baskets were three-pointers.

Meeks left a year early cost us a NCAA Championship . So I go with Big Dan from Batavia ILL . avg over 30 a game his senior year.

 

[kybassfan]

UK8 and Jon, thanks for the replies on my question.

I agree wholeheartedly that the shot clock, 5 sec rule, etc lead to the direct recovery from the downward turn in attempts. As far as the downward trend itself, I'm thinking maybe that there were many drivers, such as those you point out. The shift to extremely aggressive defenses. More and more teams were adopting that strategy. Dean Smith's four corners, which was more "keep away" than it was basketball. And, simply because I want to believe this, Rupp's departure which led to a trend in less aggressive offense.

Thanks again for the thoughts. That rather steep slope and significant discontinuity resulting the end the recovery at the end just caught my eye.

 

[RacerX.ksr]

I don't have a problem with either opinion. Like I said, it's like picking between Secretariat and American Pharoah. Either way you're picking an amazing horse. Either way you're choosing over another amazing horse.

Secretariat: KY Derby 1:59 2/5 Preakness 1:53 Belmont 2:24
AP KY Derby 2:03:02 Preakness 1:58:45 Belmont 2:26:65

Easy to compare. Same tracks, same distance.

 

[Panthur]

I'm glad you posted the video. Good to see the old Cats. However, I am not sure that this proves your point. In fact, if anything, I think it proves the point of those who vote for Issel. The video clearly shows that Adolph didn't run the offense through Issel. Even though he took more shots, in his game, he probably had the ball in his hands less. He probably had to get some offensive put backs, to get his points, and one of the reasons he had 18 rebounds.

It proves Issel faced nothing on Earth like the kind of actual defense Jodie faced. And therefore what he accomplished was much less difficult than what Jodie accomplished. And therefore it was less significant. That was my point.

You are only trying to claim my "point" is anything else because you have no other options. You're also contradicting yourself so obviously that you've had to use the ridiculous phrase, "he probably had the ball in his hands less". Based on what? Based on your need to have it be true since all your other arguments disappeared from under your feet? It's certainly nothing that is supported by this video, or will be supported by any video since Jodie was mostly a catch and shoot guy working off pick and rolls except for his occasional drives. In this video I posted, Issel shot the ball 33 times. Against a joke of a defense. That's 11 more times than Jodie shot to get his record. And when Issel got his own record, he shot the ball even more. And of course he had to get offensive putbacks: he was shooting at a low percentage! Of course he got 18 rebounds: he's a giant among dwarves out there as this video shows!

There's no need to take anything away from Issel or what he accomplished for our great program, back in an era when superhuman physical feats weren't necessary to rack up great numbers. But to try to say his accomplishment was more significant than Jodie's is plain silly, and I'm glad your arguments are finally stretching to the point where everyone can see that. If Rupp could have Big Dan take 33 and 34 shots a game without running "the offense through Issel," it was obviously because they were only playing a polite and up tempo game of HORSE that would be utterly demolished on today's courts.

 

[Panthur]

The video also wipes away the rumors of all Issel's shots that would have been 3s if there had been a line. Dude just doesn't shoot it outside 12 feet, and usually much closer in than that.

Maybe if there had been a 3 point line he would have shot from out there. And maybe if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses on the ground when they walked.

 

[kybassfan]

I think I now know the answer to this question of Issel versus Meeks.

If you never saw Dan play, Jodie was the winner.

If you saw both play but were really young when Dan was playing, its a toss up.

If you were age 10 - 15 when Dan was playing but saw both play, its Dan.

I figured this out when a poster referred to the game where KY was playing LSU as a game of HORSE. NOTHING is further from the truth.

 

[Panthur]

I figured this out when a poster referred to the game where KY was playing LSU as a game of HORSE. NOTHING is further from the truth.

****HORSE****!!!!!

I never would have thought of that comparison myself before I watched this footage. What say we let folks decide for themselves.

 

[kybassfan]

****HORSE****!!!!!

I never would have thought of that comparison myself before I watched this footage. What say we let folks decide for themselves.

What say we consider the opinion of folks that watched dozens of games back then and not accept one short video as representative of the times?

 

[Ben101er]

It proves Issel faced nothing on Earth like the kind of actual defense Jodie faced. And therefore what he accomplished was much less difficult than what Jodie accomplished. And therefore it was less significant. That was my point.

You are only trying to claim my "point" is anything else because you have no other options. You're also contradicting yourself so obviously that you've had to use the ridiculous phrase, "he probably had the ball in his hands less". Based on what? Based on your need to have it be true since all your other arguments disappeared from under your feet? It's certainly nothing that is supported by this video, or will be supported by any video since Jodie was mostly a catch and shoot guy working off pick and rolls except for his occasional drives. In this video I posted, Issel shot the ball 33 times. Against a joke of a defense. That's 11 more times than Jodie shot to get his record. And when Issel got his own record, he shot the ball even more. And of course he had to get offensive putbacks: he was shooting at a low percentage! Of course he got 18 rebounds: he's a giant among dwarves out there as this video shows!

There's no need to take anything away from Issel or what he accomplished for our great program, back in an era when superhuman physical feats weren't necessary to rack up great numbers. But to try to say his accomplishment was more significant than Jodie's is plain silly, and I'm glad your arguments are finally stretching to the point where everyone can see that. If Rupp could have Big Dan take 33 and 34 shots a game without running "the offense through Issel," it was obviously because they were only playing a polite and up tempo game of HORSE that would be utterly demolished on today's courts.

Well, I watched games in both eras, and I disagree. But, it is obvious that we are not going to agree, so all I can say is...... Go Big Blue.

 

[Ben101er]

I think I now know the answer to this question of Issel versus Meeks.

If you never saw Dan play, Jodie was the winner.

If you saw both play but were really young when Dan was playing, its a toss up.

If you were age 10 - 15 when Dan was playing but saw both play, its Dan.

I figured this out when a poster referred to the game where KY was playing LSU as a game of HORSE. NOTHING is further from the truth.

The poster said Horse, because that was Dan's nickname.

 

[BillyBones]

The video also wipes away the rumors of all Issel's shots that would have been 3s if there had been a line. Dude just doesn't shoot it outside 12 feet, and usually much closer in than that.

Maybe if there had been a 3 point line he would have shot from out there. And maybe if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses on the ground when they walked.

Dan had a great corner jumper shot it 15% of the time..may not show on 1 Video Tape.Those would be 3 Pointers today..Horse was Issel's nickname don't know about frogs..

 

[kybassfan]

The poster said Horse, because that was Dan's nickname.

No double entendre there.

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

Argument for Jodie Meeks- he scored his 54 despite having to play for a drunken boob.

Argument for Dan Issel- he scored his 53 despite having to wear shorts that likely cut off most of the blood circulation in his legs/feet.

Both faced tough challenges to be sure but, in a narrow decision- issel's performance is better.

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

Someone could look up Dan's NBA numbers to see how many 3s he made in the league. My vote would be for Issel
as he was more likely to do that. Only listened to Dan's game and saw Jodie's. If Jodie had done it against Ole MIss
instead of UT then I'm guessing he'd get less votes. It was certainly a joy to watch what Jodie did to UT. If you go just for sheer enjoyment, then Jodie wins.