Expecting good things from both, but you need more than that in the B10. This roster is a season away from - from Dean Rieber and Jalen Miller - being crucial pieces. If Cliff or Muclahy twisted an ankle, Reiber and Miller would be in your starting lineup.
Montez - between Clemson and St Johns
- Thread starter BigEastPhil
- Start date
The primary lineup Mathis was in after he was removed from the starting lineup was Baker, Young, Harper, and Johnson.... which were all starters.
Comparing that lineup to one that swapped Mathis for Mulcahy (for games in the data set from sk.com - data is for 11 of 15 games.... but Mathis didn't play very well in the 4 missing games, averaging just 3.5 ppg in 15.8 min, actually scoring fewer points per minute played than Mulcahy in those same games):
Mathis with Baker/Young/Harper/Johnson: points 1.39, opp points 2.01 (-0.62/min)
Mulcahy with Baker/Young/Harper/Johnson: points 1.80, opp points 1.56 (+0.24/min)
From the on-court performance, it looks like the lineups with Mulcahy were performing better than the ones with Mathis, both offensively and defensively.
Last edited:
Sk.com shows +/- per lineup? Or are you taking individual numbers and grouping them together?
IIRC again Mathis post-benching was not playing with Baker Young Harper Johnson for most minutes.
Maybe I will buy 1 month of BTN+ and chart this for us if I have time this week.
SK.com box scores track points scored/allowed by lineup for most games, and # of minutes each lineup is on the floor. From there it's just a calculation to get points scored/allowed per minute played. It's not aggregated in one place though, and each box score is in PDF format - so I had to copy/paste from the PDF over to Excel, then adjust the columns based on delimiters, and then pull the data together for the whole season. Then I threw it into QlikView to manipulate the data more easily.
It is frustratingly missing a handful of road games, where I assume the away team didn't keep or provide that data back to Rutgers.
Here's the original thread where I had started looking at that data. https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/2020-21-lineups.215098/
Do we need to talk about his defense, especially relative to other guards ahead of him in the rotation?
he was so much better than them.
After Mathis was removed from the starting lineup (11 available games out of 15 played)....
20.85 min: Baker/Mathis/Johnson/Harper/Young
14.87 min: Baker/Omoruyi/Mathis/Harper/Young
14.08 min: Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/McConnell/Young
12.85 min: Baker/Omoruyi/Mathis/McConnell/Young
11.43 min: Baker/Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/McConnell
9.17 min: Baker/Mulcahy/Omoruyi/Mathis/McConnell
8.20 min: Baker/Mathis/Johnson/McConnell/Young
7.30 min: Baker/Mathis/Johnson/McConnell/Harper
6.70 min: Mulcahy/Omoruyi/Mathis/McConnell/Harper
5.90 min: Baker/Omoruyi/Mathis/McConnell/Harper.
4.12 min: Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/Harper/Young
Then another 13 lineups averaging between 0.03 and 3.80 minutes
Of those listed above, the best unit for him was: Baker/Mathis/Johnson/McConnell/Young... that unit averaged 2.80 pts/min, and allowed just 0.61 pts/min.
Great work. Is this limited to big ten play? Can you pull the same for Cuse to Penn St iirc right before the benching? Heck share the excel!
Last edited:
Back in the day - the Chris Mullins days and the Malik Sealy days (God rest his soul, the pride of Tolentine H.S. where I had many friends and a cousin who was a superstar) St. John's could get any kid in the city. Since they didn't have dorms, they could pay a housing stipend directly to the athlete. A kid could stay at home and collect cash. If you were good enough, you somehow got a magically free apartment in Queens and still pocketed the cash. Add in a no-show job and you were doing alright. St. John's will never get to those heights again.
He's a good player. I can see 15ppg for him at St Johns. Best of luck
Yep. All true. A friend of mine attended St. John's in the mid 80s. We interned together with the NJ Nets in 1986. He was involved with the Johnnies' sports info dept. His stories were in tune with what you wrote.
Pretend Houston got to take either Paul or Montez from us. There is no question they’d take Montez. Square peg in round hole here.
Paul fits our limited offense better. No purposeful ball movement, no off ball screens, no cohesion, resulting in chucks and step back 20 footers.
Paul, Ron, Geo and Myles all play slow basketball.
Montez is a better athlete and in a real offense is a better player.
Edit: Gonzaga. Great athletes and great ball movement. We know who they would take if choosing between all our guards. Montez.
Paul fits our limited offense better. No purposeful ball movement, no off ball screens, no cohesion, resulting in chucks and step back 20 footers.
Paul, Ron, Geo and Myles all play slow basketball.
Montez is a better athlete and in a real offense is a better player.
Edit: Gonzaga. Great athletes and great ball movement. We know who they would take if choosing between all our guards. Montez.
Last edited:
So you ignore the actual production and then definitively state he is the better player based on your idea of a “real offense”. Fantasy land.
What production do you speak of? Montez was a top 15 scorer helping lead them to number 11 helping us upset Illinois what has Paul ever done that Montez has done in his three years? New jersey loves Paul now win with him
The Montez Mathis that played in the cupcake part of the schedule and the Illinois and Purdue game was better than Mulcahy. At one point I think he made 7 straight 3s. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew that was a fluke just by watching him shoot his floating knuckleballs. After that stretch, opponents figured him out and he couldn’t/wouldn’t adjust. He finished the season 1/24 from three until the Houston game, continued his selfish attacks on the rim, turned the ball over recklessly and wasn’t even close to Mulcahy as a player by the end of the season.
The Montez Mathis that played in the cupcake part of the schedule and the Illinois and Purdue game was better than Mulcahy. At one point I think he made 7 straight 3s. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew that was a fluke just by watching him shoot his floating knuckleballs. After that stretch, opponents figured him out and he couldn’t/wouldn’t adjust. He finished the season 1/24 from three until the Houston game, continued his selfish attacks on the rim, turned the ball over tecklessly and wasn’t even close to Mulcahy as a player by the end of the season.
But all true. You’re definitely in the minority on this one.
I wound’t say thank God but Pike is loyal to a fault and would have played him too much next year so this is win- win.
Okay, so, I apparently lost the home games vs. Minnesota and Northwestern in my data from the last time I'd looked at it. I added them back in.
I have all the major conference games except: @OSU on 12/23, @MSU on 1/5, @PSU on 1/21, @Iowa on 2/10, and @Nebraska on 3/1
From Cuse (12/8) through Wisconsin (1/15), since I don't have the PSU game (5 of 8 games)....
60.33 - Baker/Mathis/Johnson/Harper/Young (-0.08 pts/min)
28.20 - Baker/Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/Young (-0.32)
22.62 - Mulcahy/Omoruyi/Mathis/Harper/Young (-0.04)
20.83 - Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/Harper/Young (+0.34)
5:17 - Baker/Mulcahy/Mathis/Johnson/Harper (+1.94)
That accounts for of 137.2 of 192.9 minutes with Mathis on the floor (71.1%), with a ton of other lineups ranging from 0.18-3.32 min.
Looking at just the lineups with Baker/Johnson/Harper/Young, before and after Mathis got moved out of the starting lineup... also throwing in lineups with McConnell and those four.
Before (data on 5 of 8 games)
60.33 min with Mathis: 1.94 pts, 2.02 allowed (-0.08)
21.23 min with Mulcahy: 2.64 pts, 1.93 allowed (+0.71)
2.23 min with McConnell: 1.79 pts, 3.13 allowed (-1.34)... only from the Wisconsin game
After (now with data on 13 of 15 games)
22.15 min with Mathis: 1.58 pts, 2.08 allowed (-0.50)
104.02 min with Mulcahy: 1.75 pts, 1.60 allowed (+0.15)
45.45 min with McConnell: 1.72 pts, 1.54 allowed (+0.18)
Mulcahy, Geo and Caleb are all better all around team players imo. No hate. Appreciate what Tez did for ru and wish him luck.
Our problem for next year is up front. Not guards - especially ones that don’t shoot that well and aren’t good ball handlers or passers. By no means do I think we’re going to end up bringing in 4 new players that contribute more to next year’s team than Tez would. Therefore this is a loss. But again, we’ll be okay without him. We need another forward or a center who can play 15+ minutes without a massive drop off in play when Cliff sits. Otherwise it’s going to be a long season.
Idk man I think our problem is guards especially if Jones isn’t an impact scorer right off the bat. None of these guys can get to the rim. Only one do them can defend the perimeter. Cliff will be fine and the conference seems to be getting smaller.
I mean don’t get me wrong I still see the need for some front court depth but I think the ceiling is pretty low if we don’t upgrade the guard play. Jones is really important in this regard.
Remains to be seen about Miller's ability to get to the rim - I thought that was supposed to be one of his strengths. Depending on what happens with Baker, we also have Mulcahy, McConnell, Jones, Mag, and Miller at the 1-3 spots. Also curious if after the transfer dust settles, if Harper ends up at the SF position - as he's shown he can get to the rim.
This. PM and CM have improved as players progressively since arriving at RU (forget CM’s shooting percentage in the last 2 years while he’s battled and returned from injuries). He’s still a much better all around player now than he was as a frosh - I bet his shooting stats will look better next year too, but the point is there’s every reason to believe those guys continue to develop. Jones, Mag and Miller are unknowns at this point. Odds seem pretty decent for one to be a contributor. And even if Baker performs status quo he’s a double digit scorer. The back court will be fine.
Sorry, but if you believe Mark Few is going to recruit any
guard who consistently turns the ball over you believe in
the tooth fairy
Gonzaga plays as a team...they don’t drive to the basket with their heads down and selfishly throwing up a layup without looking for teammates first
that said..I love Mathis and wish he stayed
Paul and Caleb have improved no doubt. If we are being realistic, barring significant improvement, they are not 20+ MPG guys. With Montez gone that should clear the deck for a 1/2/3 to come here knowing there are 30 MPG available.....even with Baker and Harper back.