Arkansas struggles from three point range and they just don’t take many 3's. Cal can beat those teams, but unless we have a couple guys go off, Cal can't beat teams that run a spread offense.
Modern offense
- Thread starter kyjeff1
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Our offensive scheme needs to be better since we rely of missing shots and getting offensive rebounds but it’s more about playing players at the right position and recruiting a certain skillset. Cal just doesn’t believe in that. Our defense is absolutely atrocious tho. And it’s been bad for last 3-4 years
It's probably a bit of both. We're not good defensively and we are struggling in the half court for offense.
Vandy running small ball really hurt us. That could be the key to knocking us out early next week. We just don't have the talent to run.
Vandy running small ball really hurt us. That could be the key to knocking us out early next week. We just don't have the talent to run.
Not sure this makes sense. The last 3 games Kansas has lost they scored less than 70 points. It starts on the defensive end. If you play bad defense and force yourself to have to score >80 points to beat those teams you’re gonna lose. Kansas has given up 80 points twice this season, one of which an OT game.
Vandy’s only given up 80 points once since their turnaround. You can’t rely on scoring >80 that’s just an unreasonable expectation. With a better defensive gameplan we don’t lose yesterday. They KILLED us in the half court. It wasn’t like we had a bunch of turnovers or gave them a bunch of run outs (they actually missed a layup on one of the few run outs they had). We just couldn’t guard for a full 30 seconds
Yep. Lock of the century that Vandy loses by 15+ today.
Okay, so Vandy's 3* players are scoring 80ppg and also holding teams well below 80ppg.
Got it.
Next question is, why aren't we doing that?
You still have to force any team to knock those shots down. Allowing teams to get drive at will to get layups is not a recipe for success. Vandy shot 10/25, Arkansas 7/22, not a huge difference there. Difference between Vandy game and Arkansas game is Vandy got yo the rim, Arkansas did not and had to take tougher looks. If they take the tough shots and knock them down you tip your hat, layups and dunks are not tough shots.
Pretty simple why we lost. We couldn’t guard them. They could guard us.
Hundreds of reasons man. We could have an hours long conversation about all of the problems with our team
You’re never going to shut that kind of offense down. Our defense is bad, but our offense and our free throw shooting let us down.
I don't care how good your defense is, a spread offense is going to score. Heck, we even outrebounded them by more that 20 and still lost.
@kyjeff1 My biggest takeaway from last night is again we just showed we cannot guard teams with quick guards who can get to the rim that are flanked by shooters. We do not have good on-ball defenders, especially with Cason being hobbled, and Oscar not being a rim protector forces our other guards to help off their men to help with drives. We don't have a rim protector inside like we've had in the past to be able to clean up some of the mistakes with on-ball defense, hence the subpar contests on some of their floaters/layups inside, and the relatively open 3s they get as our defenders are forced to help off.
And we just don't have the same personnel on our team in terms of sheer quickness to allow us to play like Vandy (we have more talent, we're just not built like that especially with how forward/big heavy we are with all of our guard injuries). Cason is hurt and can't beat his man off the dribble, Reeves can at times but he's just been so inconsistent. When Reeves is on like Arkansas we look great but when he's off, without Cason being healthy we just don't have many other playmakers.
I think both things can be true. The offense was extremely inconsistent last night and free throws/missed open timely 3s hurt us. But at the same time, our defense should be good enough that we can afford to have an off-night offensively and still beat teams like Vandy. Our defense gives our offense so little room for error.
And also for whatever reason everytime we play Vandy we can already chalk up at least 3-4 end-of-shot-clock 3s after a scramble that we all know is going in the second they get it off.
And also for whatever reason everytime we play Vandy we can already chalk up at least 3-4 end-of-shot-clock 3s after a scramble that we all know is going in the second they get it off.
100000% this ^^^^^ If you cannot stop dribble-penetration and defend well, you are simply going to have to have an above-average shooting night, from the field AND the free-throw line, to have a good chance to win against any competitive team. It has become increasingly clear and obvious in this modern era of college basketball. You must have fundamental skills, yes, but QUICKNESS is essential !!!
I was asking myself the same question throughout the game. I would like to be in the coaches' room and ask them directly. I'm sure there's an answer to why they saw Vandy differently. Or, it could be, Vandy's trio of Laurence, Minjon and Wright were smaller and even quicker than Arkansas' perimeter players.
Vanderbilt is better from 3-point range, but Arkansas shoots better overall ... that's probably the reason:
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I think Arkansas has been a very poor 3 point shooting team all year so we intentionally packed it in against them
There's no doubt our defense this year (actually the past 5 years), has been well below par, but that's college basketball right now. Even UT and Alabama, two top 3 defenses, give up points, especially when a team hits crazy threes like Vandy did. The difference between the three teams is, UK and UT play old school offense that labors to score, where as Alabama has a high powered spread offense that scores at the rim and the 3 point line and they win a lot of games just by outscoring teams.
College basketball is all about scoring the ball. The officials call touch fouls that neuter your defense too often, so you need to be able to outscore teams sometimes.
We held Vandy to 68 last Wednesday and still lost, because we couldn't score. You have to be able to score.
When is the last time a post up offense won a title? It’s old man basketball.
Lets see what Vandy does today. If they hit threes like they did last night, they'll beat aTm.
It’s tough to beat a team that hits shots like Vandy was last night. You have to score to keep up with them and in most games, we can't, because Oscar gets swallowed up, even by small teams, then we have very little to fall back on.
You don't see the difference between Vandy and Arkansas?
If Cal tried to fefend Vandy the way he defended Arkansas, we would have lost by 30 last night.
I don't disagree with you, but if you don't have a good defense it makes it very hard to have success regardless of anything else. Alabama is known for their offense because of the way they play but their defense has been GREAT all season long (especially in terms of points per possession, as they play faster and will therefore give teams more possessions) and they've been able to win some games when they've shot poorly because they can rely on their defense in the rare occasion that their offense is off (their win @Houston for example).
You have to be able to withstand poor shooting nights to win multiple games in a row in a tournament setting, and that starts by having a great defensive foundation. If you don't have a good defense, you will lose the first night you have an off night.
And I think with this particular team it's just especially frustrating because I thought defense would be a constant even with the injuries that we've had
Modern offenses don't place a tree with a 2 inch vertical under the basket clogging up driving lanes that turns the team into a three point shooting team, a long two point shooting team, or turnover team resulting from forcing balls inside to the 2 inch vertical tree.
You definitely have to have a top 10 or 15 defense, but I'll point to UT again, they have an elite defense, but they aren't going anywhere, they can't score enough. Heck, when you get swept by this UK team and you have an elite defense, you suck offensively.
Yeah UT is definitely a team that doesn’t have a prayer on offense. I’ll be shocked if they get blown out in the tournament because of their defense but they are a team whose offense is gonna keep them from winning close games down the stretch
Here are the OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE team rankings, for everyone's reference:
NCAA College Men's Basketball DI current team Stats | NCAA.com
Discover the current NCAA Division I Men's Basketball leaders in every stats category, as well as historic leaders.
www.ncaa.com
NCAA College Men's Basketball DI current team Stats | NCAA.com
Discover the current NCAA Division I Men's Basketball leaders in every stats category, as well as historic leaders.
www.ncaa.com
PLUS, hit your free-throws !!
KENTUCKY is 100th on offense and 107th on defense, per these rankings ... not high enough in either.
KENTUCKY is 67th in scoring margin !!
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I would add Wheeler to that list, if you are talking about a bonafide spread offense, with a cleared lane.
You simply cannot run a spread with Oscar in the line-up. Of course, we all realize this.
So if that type of offense can never be shut down....that begs the question, why doesn't every team in the country play that style? If defenses can't stop it, teams would be idiots not to employ that offense. Additionally, all games would be in the 80s and 90 according to you, as defenses would be utterly helpless.
Correct. You can't run it with Oscar, Wheeler, or Collins, but that's what Cal recruits to. He doesn't care about outside shooting. He still believes that post offense and rebounding is the key to winning. It’s not. Hasn't worked for many years now.
Most teams do run a version of spread offenses. Problem is, most teams can't recruit the players to be in the top tier of college basketball with it, or with any other offense for that matter.
An easier question would be, how many teams are running an old school post offense and out of those schools, which ones are actual title threats? Purdue isn’t going anywhere. UK isn’t going anywhere, uNC is in the NIT, Tennessee isn’t winning a title, Michigan State? No. Michigan? No. What other teams run a post offense?
Your statement about top-tier talent is spot on.
It takes a certain level of talent to run a quality spread offense. That is why everybody doesn't run it.
It takes quality big men to run a quality post offense. That is why the last BIG TEN team to win was Michigan State in 2000. The BIG TEN style, generally, does not feature the quicker players in spread offenses.
Regards recruiting, one thing that never seems to be mentioned is the character quality of the individuals' being recruited, in addition to their playing ability and fit into a particular style. Many high-level players are eliminated from many recruiting boards because of wanting to avoid potential off-the-court issues, ego issues and/or problems in the locker room. All coaches want good kids that can really play, of course, but some will accept at-risk (for lack of a better term) kids before others will. Many coaches probably consider the discussions with guidance counselors, teachers, high-school coaches, principals, etc.. to be more important than what they see of kids at the AAU tournaments. Parents can be a big problem, as well, of course. In this regard, I believe there is an art that some coaches seem to have in determining best fits for their programs, trying to win at a high level, but eliminating potential problems. Recruiting and winning is a tough gig, but coaches get paid big $$$ to do it !!
Remember the Pitino system? Full court pressing style defense will wear down good three point shooting teams. Shots that fell in the first half miss in the second half. But you need depth to play that style. And Calipari does not fill all his roster spots because, and he said this recently on a post game show after a win, that would be two more guys who would not get to play. And he does not want to hurt more feelings!
I ran a spread offense in an AAU game because we were playing a team that clearly had us out sized. We were easily the quicker team, so I pulled everyone outside the three line and we destroyed them. Before the game was over, the players and the coaches on the other team were going at each other. They literally had no idea how to stop it. For some strange reason, their head coach decided to stick with his taller players rather than to go small for a better defensive matchup. However, the reason it worked for us is because I had an excellent 3-point shooting team, so they couldn't layoff my shooters. When they came out to defend, we drove right by them for layups. If you have some ball handlers, the spread offense isn't that hard to execute.
UK could execute the spread with its guards, Toppin, and Livingston. I believe, Adou and Oscar could be effective in a spread offense too. Oscar isn't bad with the ball with only one defender.
UK could execute the spread with its guards, Toppin, and Livingston. I believe, Adou and Oscar could be effective in a spread offense too. Oscar isn't bad with the ball with only one defender.
When you are not sure who is leaving and who is returning, I'm not clear on how you recruit. Seems awfully tough. You have to begin recruiting really early into your current season, even before it begins, so how do you know how many spots you actually have open and even more so, what floor positions need to be filled ??
There is a practical reality to recruiting, based on how I see it. Football seems easier with so many spots on a team. Perhaps always leaving a few spots open provides some margin of recruiting safety and wiggle room ?? Just a thought ...
I think SOS is clearer about who is leaving and who isn't that what he lets on. Most of the players who leave, do so at SOS's encouragement. There could be far more stability with this team if SOS wanted it. He loves sending guys to the NBA even if they don't stay very long.
Thanks for your post. Makes good sense to me. I can see how your opponent became frustrated because I'd imagine their players knew early on that they couldn't stay with yours and that was just how it is. I see the same thing in football with lineman. I know there are adjustments, but if a dude can whip a dude off the line, he can probably do it the entire game.
Question: I sense you are an active coach. In your opinion, do you see a healthy Sahvir Wheeler being the kind of quick ball-handler that would fit in very well with other QUICKER players, versus spot-up type players ?? For two (2) years, he has been the only bonafide elite-quickness that we've had off the dribble and I sense opponents know it, especially SEC opponents. Thanks, in advance.
Interesting viewpoint. I certainly don't know. Do you think Cal knew/encouraged Brooks and Hopkins to leave and knew early on ?? Would Toppin have stayed and Livingston have come, if both returned ?? I've always wondered, but haven't a clue, of course.
Why wouldn't he play him exactly like he plays Toppin ?? I'm not seeing that. He wouldn't want Miller down low, especially if Oscar's down there. Sorry. but I'm not seeing or agreeing with you on this point. Miller is a stretch four and I think any coach would play him that way, Cal included.
Sure, he wanted Hopkins gone. I doubt if he wanted Brooks out. If he wanted Hopkins to stay, he would have treated him better. There was zero excuse for Hopkins not getting more playing time. SOS creates an environment that is easy to blame the players for not getting more playing time or not winning. However, I am willing to bet that there isn't another team in college basketball that leave 5-star athletes wasting away on the bench like what happens consistently at UK.
