Measles In Clemson and upstate

[FLaw47]

first things first..H2A visas allows people to remain in the US to do agricultural work. Trump is on record as saying he wanted to protect farmers and their crops by maintaining H2A visas. You might have seen something where they are being cut. To be honest, I really haven't paid much attention and have not seen anything indicating there's a problem

Again, are we claiming that none of the people who were deported had agricultural jobs? Everyone in that industry is doing so legally?

I don't disagree with your thoughts about rhetoric does matter.. it does. But where we disagree..you seem to think that the majority, or at least a large majority of Americans, even know about what's going on in the vaccination world. I don't. Insofar as flu shots, absent the new moderna formula, there are plenty others. You want flu shot you can get one normally free. About less than 50% of Americans get flu shots - rises to about 70% of those over 65 -. So, we'll see from future numbers if those % decrease. New flu formulas are developed every year to match what that year's strain is expected to be. I haven't seen a change, maybe you have.

I really doubt the average American knows that there are 18 vaccines on the government's schedule...I didn't.

I have posted before that I agree the verbiage environment toward vaccines has been negative under RFK. And I have little doubt that impacts some people's decisions. That's why I have maintained the position that each individual should consult their doctor to determine which to take and which are unnecessary. I agree with the concept of personal responsibility. Vaccines are readily available to anyone that wants them. I think it's a cop out to say that I didn't get a flu shot (for example) because of the government. If you're depending on the government and not your doctor to make your health decisions you're going down the wrong path, IMO.

I don't think it matters if individual people know what's going on specifically with the government. They do "hear" about things through facebook and other places and this administration increases that amount of noise. When you go to the doctor and they ask for a flu shot, some people are going to ask what's recommended and if the doctor says "I recommend this because I'm not a frothing moron but the CDC no longer recommends it", I can't imagine that's going to get more people to be vaccinated.

You're handwaving away small percentages that math out to big absolute numbers. Again, 36,000 people die per year from the flu. If we have 5% fewer people getting vaccinated, I'm only going off of the estimates that I can find but in the 2023-2024 flu season, they estimated that the flu vaccine prevented 9.8 Million cases of the flu. 0.1% of people who get the flu die, roughly, so that's 9,800 lives saved. If 5% of those people now don't get the shot (and the trends suggest I'm being conservative) that's still 490 people per year. That's only deaths and only for the flu.

Covid vaccines save a life per 5,400 shots (for the whole pandemic, I couldn't find anything for more recent effectiveness). Last year only 17% of adults got the covid shot. I'm napkin mathing here but if that number was only increased by 50% that's 5,383 lives per year.

And you're still ignoring the fact that the FDA is deliberately slowing development on (potentially) more effective vaccines, flu and otherwise.

Moderna had phase 3 trials for cancer vaccines that they've since cancelled because of the current climate in the US!

If you're going to claim "personal responsibility" on this topic then I'm going to claim it on the ICE rhetoric. Democratic politicians should be allowed to demonize ICE as much as they want to. It's not like they're forcing people to go an "obstruct" what ICE is doing or whatever.

 

[baltimorened]

Again, are we claiming that none of the people who were deported had agricultural jobs? Everyone in that industry is doing so legally?



I don't think it matters if individual people know what's going on specifically with the government. They do "hear" about things through facebook and other places and this administration increases that amount of noise. When you go to the doctor and they ask for a flu shot, some people are going to ask what's recommended and if the doctor says "I recommend this because I'm not a frothing moron but the CDC no longer recommends it", I can't imagine that's going to get more people to be vaccinated.

You're handwaving away small percentages that math out to big absolute numbers. Again, 36,000 people die per year from the flu. If we have 5% fewer people getting vaccinated, I'm only going off of the estimates that I can find but in the 2023-2024 flu season, they estimated that the flu vaccine prevented 9.8 Million cases of the flu. 0.1% of people who get the flu die, roughly, so that's 9,800 lives saved. If 5% of those people now don't get the shot (and the trends suggest I'm being conservative) that's still 490 people per year. That's only deaths and only for the flu.

Covid vaccines save a life per 5,400 shots (for the whole pandemic, I couldn't find anything for more recent effectiveness). Last year only 17% of adults got the covid shot. I'm napkin mathing here but if that number was only increased by 50% that's 5,383 lives per year.

And you're still ignoring the fact that the FDA is deliberately slowing development on (potentially) more effective vaccines, flu and otherwise.

Moderna had phase 3 trials for cancer vaccines that they've since cancelled because of the current climate in the US!

If you're going to claim "personal responsibility" on this topic then I'm going to claim it on the ICE rhetoric. Democratic politicians should be allowed to demonize ICE as much as they want to. It's not like they're forcing people to go an "obstruct" what ICE is doing or whatever.

well, we're just talking around each other now. You're giving me what might happen, the numbers I gave are from what did happen.

You do know that the FDA only controls US drugs. If moderna has a great anti cancer drug, they can take it to Europe for approval..

If you have a H2A visa, you're in the country legally. Have you heard where Visa holders are being deported. Not that it's not possible, but I haven't seen anything about that.

Insofar as flu deaths 2023-2024...didn't we have flu vaccines then...that was before trump admin.

Anyway, like I said talking around each other. You're convinced people will die because of admin policies, and that's OK. I respect your opinion. I see it differently. If it's my life, I make decisions based on what's best for me, not on what RFK thinks. If other people think and act differently, that's their choice.

 

[FLaw47]

well, we're just talking around each other now. You're giving me what might happen, the numbers I gave are from what did happen.

You do know that the FDA only controls US drugs. If moderna has a great anti cancer drug, they can take it to Europe for approval..

If you have a H2A visa, you're in the country legally. Have you heard where Visa holders are being deported. Not that it's not possible, but I haven't seen anything about that.

Insofar as flu deaths 2023-2024...didn't we have flu vaccines then...that was before trump admin.

Anyway, like I said talking around each other. You're convinced people will die because of admin policies, and that's OK. I respect your opinion. I see it differently. If it's my life, I make decisions based on what's best for me, not on what RFK thinks. If other people think and act differently, that's their choice.

To be fair, I did very much frame this as a hypothetical so talking only about what's previously happened defeats the point, yeah?

I will reiterate that I'm claiming that some of the illegals (I'd speculate the majority) who are being deported or otherwise discouraged from coming in the first place had (or will have had) employment. The reason they're able to get those jobs is because Americans tend to not want them. So we either produce less of the products their employers were making (raising prices) or employers have to raise wages to hire people here legally (raising prices). If every deported person is replaced bya documented person you might have a point but I haven't seen anything to suggest that's the case. Have you?

One more point to leave you with: I speculate that you extrapolate your own experiences and expectations onto other people more than is reasonable. Which is extremely normal, to be clear. But I've seen you talk about how you think about your healthcare and assume that everyone else should be able to operate the same way. I've also seen you talk about how often you need to show your ID for things (and as we've noted I very very rarely have to show my ID). I think it's worth keeping in mind that what may be normal for you is certainly not representative of everyone (and we're talking about margins in a lot of our conversations) and may not even be typical. I presume you live in a well to do area (based off of your comments over time) where perhaps businesses card people more often than in impoverished areas and you're also likely better informed that the typical person, so you can make more reasonable inferences about your medical care than some people can.

It's just food for thought.

 

[baltimorened]

To be fair, I did very much frame this as a hypothetical so talking only about what's previously happened defeats the point, yeah?

I will reiterate that I'm claiming that some of the illegals (I'd speculate the majority) who are being deported or otherwise discouraged from coming in the first place had (or will have had) employment. The reason they're able to get those jobs is because Americans tend to not want them. So we either produce less of the products their employers were making (raising prices) or employers have to raise wages to hire people here legally (raising prices). If every deported person is replaced bya documented person you might have a point but I haven't seen anything to suggest that's the case. Have you?

One more point to leave you with: I speculate that you extrapolate your own experiences and expectations onto other people more than is reasonable. Which is extremely normal, to be clear. But I've seen you talk about how you think about your healthcare and assume that everyone else should be able to operate the same way. I've also seen you talk about how often you need to show your ID for things (and as we've noted I very very rarely have to show my ID). I think it's worth keeping in mind that what may be normal for you is certainly not representative of everyone (and we're talking about margins in a lot of our conversations) and may not even be typical. I presume you live in a well to do area (based off of your comments over time) where perhaps businesses card people more often than in impoverished areas and you're also likely better informed that the typical person, so you can make more reasonable inferences about your medical care than some people can.

It's just food for thought.

all good thoughts..and all reasonable. I'm sure I look at the world through my experiences..

Here's where I fall back on all our discussions about undocumented people. 1. I'm all for immigration 2. we need to follow the law or change the law..

On vaccinations, I grew up in an era where some vaccinations were mandatory, others not. I was in the army when vaccinations were not optional (get in line, roll up your sleeves and move toward the vaccination guns). I still believe some should be mandatory and others should be at your discretion. That might sound contradictory, and probably is, but what the heck, it's my opinion.

I like your hypotheticals (sometimes). They make me think

 

[FLaw47]

all good thoughts..and all reasonable. I'm sure I look at the world through my experiences..

Here's where I fall back on all our discussions about undocumented people. 1. I'm all for immigration 2. we need to follow the law or change the law..

That's fine, I was just trying to think through the impacts of those people not being here.

On vaccinations, I grew up in an era where some vaccinations were mandatory, others not. I was in the army when vaccinations were not optional (get in line, roll up your sleeves and move toward the vaccination guns). I still believe some should be mandatory and others should be at your discretion. That might sound contradictory, and probably is, but what the heck, it's my opinion.

I don't think that's contradictory at all. I think there are some diseases that are very contagious and it makes sense that you should be vaccinated if you want to exist in polite society. I don't think a hypothetical lung cancer vaccine should be mandated, though. In between you have to consider the effectiveness of the vaccine and the seriousness of the illness. If we had a COVID vaccine the whole time, it'd have been completely appropriate to require it for public schools back when we were on COVID-A.

But again, I'm mostly talking about the impacts of the decisions the administration is making.

I like your hypotheticals (sometimes). They make me think

I appreciate it.

 

[tboonpickens]

chud logic

 

[tboonpickens]

 

[FLaw47]

I guess it just wasn't in the Good Lord's™ plan for this boy to have parents who cared about him enough for him to have a healthy life. As long as we put our faith in Jesus™, I'm sure only an exactly appropriate amount of children will die or be maimed.

 

[TigerGrowls]

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