Lindor Hit Question

[57stratdawg]

How is this a single?

 

[Anon1704414204]

Damn. Even the announcer thought it was a double. I ain't very rule savvy but the calls I've seen involve OF mishandles or attempts to get another runner and batter "sneaks" his way to 2nd.

 

[Perd Hapley]

My understanding is the scorer has to rule it based on where the hitter would end up, without an error, if there was a throw to the base he was targeting. Ultimate question being, with bases empty, does he make it to 2nd? There’s not really an angle in that clip to make the case one way or another.

 

[Lettucexxxx]

He advanced to second on the throw back into infield, not the hit!? Maybe!?

You can’t see it but at some point he would have had to check up heading to 2nd on that throw….maybe briefly… Had the throw been to second base and he beat it out, that’s a double.

 

[patdog]

Should be a double. But I’m guessing they’re saying he took 2nd on a fielders choice.

 

[karlchilders.sixpack]

Should be a double. But I’m guessing they’re saying he took 2nd on a fielders choice.

Likely, otherwise , scorers opinion.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Without that throw going all the way to home or at least to the first baseman, I don't see how you can score that a single. He was going two all the way since you don't see him in the shot when the second baseman cuts it. He does not even try to throw to second. If Lindor had stopped to read the throw, he would not have gone to two because obviously the throw was low enough for the relay man to catch it. You would have to read it going over his head.

Additionally there was one out so a fast runner with the outfielder moving that much would try to stretch it into a double to draw the throw and protect the run. Like you can't assume a double play, I don't see how you can assume a good throw will get him.

 

[columbiadawg2]

Hmmm someone had Lindor over 1.5 total bases yesterday.... And I don't see how it's a single

 

[fevans]

I don't see how you can score it as a double without the throw going to second in that situation. No way to know if he would have made it since there was no attempt at 2nd. The question is whether that's a double with no other base runners.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I don't see how you can score it as a double without the throw going to second in that situation. No way to know if he would have made it since there was no attempt at 2nd. The question is whether that's a double with no other base runners.

Exactly. If you just watched the play and stopped it when the outfielder got the ball, you’d assume that’s a single 100% of the time. The ball never got past him, and he fielded it cleanly like 30 feet off the line.

It’s always the official scorer’s decision in that situation. Hometown scorer for Anaheim is probably going to only award the single if there’s any doubt. If it was in NY, maybe they give him the double. Either way, I doubt Lindor, the pitcher, the official scorer, or anyone else on planet earth lost any sleep over it.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

I don't see how you can score it as a double without the throw going to second in that situation. No way to know if he would have made it since there was no attempt at 2nd. The question is whether that's a double with no other base runners.

Really answering Perd. So you are saying an official scorer can assume a runner will be thrown out? What percentage must it be? 80%? 50%? 30%? So if he throws it and it is a bang bang play and the ball bounces and short hops the shortstop and he can't hold on to it that it is an error? If the runner never stops and tries for a double and makes it, it should be a double.

And the announcer assumed it was a double so it being a single 100% of the time is out the window.

And it might matter for a bonus. I would have protested it.

 

[fevans]

If the ball had gone to the wall or gotten past the OF, I'd say it was a double. But if you watch the play by the OF, it looks like a routine single. The throw in from the OF was towards home, but the cutoff cut it off. This could be because there was no chance to get runner going home and he didn't want to give another bag to Lindor. It's always going to be a judgement call in these cases, but the ultimate question for me is would he have tried to get the extra base without the throw to home. If not it's a single with the extra base on the throw. Now if the throw was to 2nd and he made it, obviously that would have to be ruled a double. Just my opinion.

 

[fevans]

Honestly, I'm not sure why the OF tried to go home with that. He should have just gone to 2nd to try and keep Lindor from getting into scoring position. 99.9% of the time a runner is going to score from 2nd in that scenario.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Really answering Perd. So you are saying an official scorer can assume a runner will be thrown out? What percentage must it be? 80%? 50%? 30%? So if he throws it and it is a bang bang play and the ball bounces and short hops the shortstop and he can't hold on to it that it is an error? If the runner never stops and tries for a double and makes it, it should be a double.

I don’t see how its any different than any other play where the scorer has to decide. Say that the throw came into 2nd and it was ahead of Lindor, but was not fielded cleanly, and it becomes a close play where he gets in just ahead of the tag. Is it a double, or a single plus an error?

Say Lindor hits a soft dribbler to SS. He bobbles it a bit but eventually gets it to first. It’s way late, but would have probably been late even if it was cleanly played. Single or an error?

Scorer’s have to decide things based off nothing but snap judgments all the time. And since they are always fairly hypothetical, they can never be 100% wrong or 100% right. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter, nothing changes in the end.

And the announcer assumed it was a double so it being a single 100% of the time is out the window.

The announcer said that because he was standing on 2nd base when the play was over, and there was no error. It was a premature call from him, albeit a reasonable assumption to make. I’ve heard plenty of times announcers instead say “let’s see how they score it” before commenting.

And what I said regarding the “100% of the time” is if you just stopped watching when the outfielder got to the ball. He was well off the line and way in front of the wall. He was not fielding that ball in an area of the field that you normally see extra base hits get picked up by the OF. Therefore, its pretty reasonable to assume that a good throw to 2nd base would result in an out if that is where he went with the ball right away. But a lot of it depends on what the clip does not show, which is where was Lindor when the ball was fielded?

And it might matter for a bonus. I would have protested it.

Is there a way to do such a thing?

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

And what I said regarding the “100% of the time” is if you just stopped watching when the outfielder got to the ball. He was well off the line and way in front of the wall. He was not fielding that ball in an area of the field that you normally see extra base hits get picked up by the OF. Therefore, its pretty reasonable to assume that a good throw to 2nd base would result in an out if that is where he went with the ball right away. But a lot of it depends on what the clip does not show, which is where was Lindor when the ball was fielded?

How is the arm of that person in right? So if I was the batter the 100% out would be right. If Bo Jackson was the batter 100% safe. Lindor is closer to Bo than he is to me. He was not in the picture when the second baseman catches the ball so he is over half way to second.

 

[Perd Hapley]

How is the arm of that person in right? So if I was the batter the 100% out would be right. If Bo Jackson was the batter 100% safe. Lindor is closer to Bo than he is to me. He was not in the picture when the second baseman catches the ball so he is over half way to second.

I’m not saying either way what would have happened. If anything, I think the arm strength of the guy in RF is of less importance than him moving towards the foul line instead of away from it.

Ultimately, the scorer in real time is not considering things like speed of the runner, strength of RF arm, whether hitter was LH (and thus got a quicker jump out of the batter’s box) or RH, etc. That’s too much to process on every individual play. In general, they are just making a judgment call based on where the ball was hit, how cleanly it was fielded, and where the fielder goes with the ball.

All the things you are mentioning about him being able to take 2nd base are certainly accurate, I just don’t know that I’d expect that level of perfection from the dude in the press box.

 

[seshomoru]

Single. Advanced on throw.

It's only a double if I'm running Game Changer and my kid was batting.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

That's a double all the way. RF had no play at 2B because Lindor never slowed down rounding 1B.

 

[fevans]

That's a double all the way. RF had no play at 2B because Lindor never slowed down rounding 1B.

How can you be certain he wouldn't be thrown out at 2nd? You can't because there wasn't a throw. If he had beaten a throw into 2nd, it's a double all day if there's no error.

So I went back and watched the in-game coverage. I believe it was the main commentator that initially said it was a double. On the replay, the other guy, who I'm assuming is an analyst, said that the OF should have just thrown to 2nd because he had no chance for the runner at home. He then mentioned that the cutoff guy was out of position due to the location of the hit and that Lindor only took 2nd because he saw that the throw in was behind him. Basically heads up running by Lindor...his words.