Lets compare 17 and 19

[marshalfan]

Position by position this is my take


PG Fox >Hagans By a long shot. The only place that Hagans may be better is on defense


2g Herro and monk. monk is much better athlete and more explosive but I am not sure he that much better Herro, Tyler seems to bring some intangibles


SF Johnson>Briscoe. Keldon is a better offensive player


PF Wahington> Willis. This one is not close although by his senior year Willis was a decent player

C Adebayo and Travis. I give an ever so slight edge to Bam


Bench Baker, Quickley, Montgomery, Richard vs Gabriel Hawkins, Mulder, Killyea jones. Probably go with 17 due to the emergence of Hawkins



I would welcome discussion

 

[IrishMike409]

Fox over Hagans
Tyler over Monk
Keldon over Briscoe
PJ over Willis
Reid over Bam
19 bench over 17 bench.

 

[marshalfan]

Fox over Hagans
Tyler over Monk
Keldon over Briscoe
PJ over Willis
Reid over Bam
19 bench over 17 bench.

Thanks for the discussion We disagreed over two of the spots and they were my hardest to decide on

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Fox over Hagans
Tyler over Monk
Keldon over Briscoe
PJ over Willis
Reid over Bam
19 bench over 17 bench.

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

Position by position this is my take


PG Fox >Hagans By a long shot. The only place that Hagans may be better is on defense


2g Herro and monk. monk is much better athlete and more explosive but I am not sure he that much better Herro, Tyler seems to bring some intangibles


SF Johnson>Briscoe. Keldon is a better offensive player


PF Wahington> Willis. This one is not close although by his senior year Willis was a decent player

C Adebayo and Travis. I give an ever so slight edge to Bam


Bench Baker, Quickley, Montgomery, Richard vs Gabriel Hawkins, Mulder, Killyea jones. Probably go with 17 due to the emergence of Hawkins



I would welcome discussion

Reid> Bam
More experienced and stronger, as crazy as that sounds. The teams are very comparable overall and have the same feel. Honestly when PJ is on the floor it reminds me a lot of the Randle team that made a run to the championship, but deeper

 

[KatforLife56]

Fox over Hagans
Tyler over Monk
Keldon over Briscoe
PJ over Willis
Reid over Bam
19 bench over 17 bench.

I would take Monk over Herro. Malik was a much more reliable scorer in my opinion.

 

[marshalfan]

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

I really couldn't decide on Monk and Herro . Monk was definitely more impressive in his approach, but he was not the passer not the rebounder much. You are probably right but I think it is really close

 

[Bluesnky]

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

I’d like to hear the argument for Monk over Herro at this point.

 

[nafdu1984]

The '17 team made it further in the tournament than the '19 team will. UK's season ends Friday night if Washington doesn't play. And It looks doubtful to me. Even if he plays he will probably not be as effective after the layoff.

 

[marshalfan]

I went back and looked at some stats on Monk after I started this thread. He was a prolific scorer no doubt but I was also surprised at how few rebounds he got.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Willis was the weak link on that team he’s really what prevented a top talented team from being in the floor.

This team doesn’t have that big gap
Fox>hagans
Monk>herro
Briscoe<kJ
Richards or ej > Willis
Travis > bam

If pj can play which I doubt we are better by a wide margin. The 2017 backcourt was better but we studs there now too and maybe a little better defensively.

 

[keefsopeng]

Fox
Monk
Keldon
PJ
Bam

 

[Jkwo_rivals113955]

I get why people do this, but it doesn't work at all.

'10 beats '15 in this analysis (Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, Patterson vs Towns and Bench), but 15 was twice as good of a team by every metric (I know a couple goofs on here try to argue this point, but that's because they have the logical abilities of 5 year olds).

I mean, '17 Duke beats '98 UK by this method to a non-UK fan (individual stats, all americans, all conference players, high school rankings, however you want to look at it).

It correlates some with team quality, sure, but it misses a big part of the picture.

This team, when healthy and in conference form, is Cal's 3rd best at UK. '17 is 5th or 4th, depending on which numbers you use to compare it with '10.

 

[marshalfan]

I get why people do this, but it doesn't work at all.

'10 beats '15 in this analysis (Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, Patterson vs Towns and Bench), but 15 was twice as good of a team by every metric (I know a couple goofs on here try to argue this point, but that's because they have the logical abilities of 5 year olds).

I mean, '17 Duke beats '98 UK by this method to a non-UK fan (individual stats, all americans, all conference players, high school rankings, however you want to look at it).

We realize this doesn't mean we will go farther, it is just good lighthearted fun. I had much rather talk about this than all the conspiracies and refs.

 

[brian5562]

While you could make an argument that by comparing individual players that this year’s team is better the issue is that the gap between Fox and Hagans is so big. You put Fox on this team and they are going to the final four even without PJ. You put Hagans on the 17 team and they may lose to UCLA.

I do think this year’s team is better defensively and on the glass. Though I think 17 was slightly better I think this year’s team makes the longer run

 

[KingOfBBN]

No way would I take Herro over Monk. Fox, Monk, and Bam were incredible.

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

Willis would have been much better down the stretch had it been conceded that the Gabriel experiment was a failure early on.

Fox way, way better than AH. Keldon way more talented than Briscoe but IB brought it every time out.

Monk against UGA and UNC both games exceeds anything Tyler has done heretofore. Either is great.

With a healthy PJ, 19, maybe a tad batter, maybe not.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

Do you think Monk could have chased down McGee all game like Herro? I loved Monk, but towards the end, he wasn't hitting like earlier in the year. Herro keeps getting better and can get to the basket better than Monk and is a way better FT shooter. I give the edge to Herro. Herro ran his butt off Saturday and he always does, never stops moving and his offense suffered for it in a battle with McGee and them trying to stop each other. Herro's 3 late sealed the game not to mention his FTs at the end. I agree with most of you except on Monk over Herro. Also, Herro isn't done. He has had games where he was dam near perfect and the difference in the game and he very well could again.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

I’d like to hear the argument for Monk over Herro at this point.

Did you watch Monk play? Love Herro, but it's not really close imo.
Monk averaged almost 20 points a game. Super athletic and was a threat every game to go for 25 or more. Was right at 40% from 3.
Tyler is 14ppg and 36% from 3.

 

[Big John Stud]

Do you think Monk could have chased down McGee all game like Herro? I loved Monk, but towards the end, he wasn't hitting like earlier in the year. Herro keeps getting better and can get to the basket better than Monk and is a way better FT shooter. I give the edge to Herro. Herro ran his butt off Saturday and he always does, never stops moving and his offense suffered for it in a battle with McGee and them trying to stop each other. Herro's 3 late sealed the game not to mention his FTs at the end. I agree with most of you except on Monk over Herro. Also, Herro isn't done. He has had games where he was dam near perfect and the difference in the game and he very well could again.

I doubt McGee would have held Monk to 2-11 shooting.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

No way would I take Herro over Monk. Fox, Monk, and Bam were incredible.

Yes they were.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Do you think Monk could have chased down McGee all game like Herro? I loved Monk, but towards the end, he wasn't hitting like earlier in the year. Herro keeps getting better and can get to the basket better than Monk and is a way better FT shooter. I give the edge to Herro. Herro ran his butt off Saturday and he always does, never stops moving and his offense suffered for it in a battle with McGee and them trying to stop each other. Herro's 3 late sealed the game not to mention his FTs at the end. I agree with most of you except on Monk over Herro. Also, Herro isn't done. He has had games where he was dam near perfect and the difference in the game and he very well could again.

I think folks are forgetting how good Monk was. He simply made plays that Herro can only dream about. Herro rebounds better and shot FT's better.
Also, I believe Monk made over a 100 3's in his season. Herro is nowhere near that.

 

[Big John Stud]

It's been 2 whole years, I think some of yall forgot how ridiculous Malik Monk was. No disrespect to Herro, Monk is just on another level.

 

[bbfan1183]

It’s kind of strange having a grad transfer at UK. Comparing Reid to Bam. Bam played 2 years ago and is younger than Reid.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

I think folks are forgetting how good Monk was. He simply made plays that Herro can only dream about. Herro rebounds better and shot FT's better.
Also, I believe Monk made over a 100 3's in his season. Herro is nowhere near that.

So I looked it up and Herro has made 58 to this point so in that way you're right. I also noticed Monk took over 100 more 3s at 262 attempts LOL. So I'm sure he is going to have 40+ more when you take over 100 more 3s. Don't get me wrong I love Monk. But Herro is better at the rim, at the line and is a hell of a shooter also.

He is currently 36% from 3, Monk was 40% so better, but with 100 more shots. No telling where Herro would be if he had 100 more shots not to mention a PG like Fox compared to Ashton.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

I also looked up 2 pointers because Herro gets to the basket a lot more than Monk. On 2 pointers Monk was 147 out of 296 for 50% while Herro is 118 out of 218 for 54% from 2. So, in the end, Herro is 4% better from 2 and Monk is 4% better from 3. Again Monk took over 100 more 3s than Tyler. In the end, I don't think you can say Monk was so much better than Herro when Herro is the best FT shooter we have had in I don't know how long at .943%. He also has 160 rebounds compared to Monks 95 and remember also with these numbers that is Monk playing 3 more games than Tyler.

Once again Monk was great, but so is Herro. I just think Herro is more than a shooter so I give the slight edge to him for his versatility and better defense.

 

[KatforLife56]

I also looked up 2 pointers because Herro gets to the basket a lot more than Monk. On 2 pointers Monk was 147 out of 296 for 50% while Herro is 118 out of 218 for 54% from 2. So, in the end, Herro is 4% better from 2 and Monk is 4% better from 3. Again Monk took over 100 more 3s than Tyler. In the end, I don't think you can say Monk was so much better than Herro when Herro is the best FT shooter we have had in I don't know how long at .943%. He also has 160 rebounds compared to Monks 95 and remember also with these numbers that is Monk playing 3 more games than Tyler.

Once again Monk was great, but so is Herro. I just think Herro is more than a shooter so I give the slight edge to him for his versatility and better defense.

Herro has flat disappeared the last 3 games basically. He has been giving us nothing on offense. Monk, on the other hand, was a threat to drop 30 every game.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

Herro has flat disappeared the last 3 games basically. He has been giving us nothing on offense. Monk, on the other hand, was a threat to drop 30 every game.

Ok, let's look it up. So when we got in the tourney Monks totals 12, 14, 21, 12. A lot of people forget Monk faded towards the end. Herro last 4 games played 20, 10, 14, 9. Plus let's remember Herro has almost twice the amount of rebounds in 3 fewer games played and is much more locked in on defense. Herro has shot less instead of forcing bad shots until the last game where he just had an off night. But he was also running his *** off non stop chasing McGee who had 11 of his 12 3s contested. Plue Herro's story isn't over. I see a big bounce-back game coming Friday.

Like monk more, if you want that's fine, but these are stats, not fond memories. Herro is a much better rebounder, FT shooter and defender than Monk. He has a better percentage from 2 then Monk did and Monk from 3, but they are close and Monk took over 100 more 3s. I said I like Herro slightly better because he is more versatile. Almost twice as many rebounds in 3 fewer games plus I like how he is always moving. Also like mentioned above remember the advantage of playing with a PG like Fox. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that's just mine. Again loved Monk.

 

[Cindog28]

Nope. This season isn't over yet. Hindsight.

 

[KatforLife56]

Ok, let's look it up. So when we got in the tourney Monks totals 12, 14, 21, 12. A lot of people forget Monk faded towards the end. Herro last 4 games played 20, 10, 14, 9. Plus let's remember Herro has almost twice the amount of rebounds in 3 fewer games played and is much more locked in on defense. Herro has shot less instead of forcing bad shots until the last game where he just had an off night. But he was also running his *** off non stop chasing McGee who had 11 of his 12 3s contested. Plue Herro's story isn't over. I see a big bounce-back game coming Friday.

Like monk more, if you want that's fine, but these are stats, not fond memories. Herro is a much better rebounder, FT shooter and defender than Monk. He has a better percentage from 2 then Monk did and Monk from 3, but they are close and Monk took over 100 more 3s. I said I like Herro slightly better because he is more versatile. Almost twice as many rebounds in 3 fewer games plus I like how he is always moving. Also like mentioned above remember the advantage of playing with a PG like Fox. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that's just mine. Again loved Monk.

Agree to disagree brother. I like Herro a lot and think he is a very good player. I just think Monk was one of the really great ones in the Cal era.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

So I looked it up and Herro has made 58 to this point so in that way you're right. I also noticed Monk took over 100 more 3s at 262 attempts LOL. So I'm sure he is going to have 40+ more when you take over 100 more 3s. Don't get me wrong I love Monk. But Herro is better at the rim, at the line and is a hell of a shooter also.

He is currently 36% from 3, Monk was 40% so better, but with 100 more shots. No telling where Herro would be if he had 100 more shots not to mention a PG like Fox compared to Ashton.

He took more, but he also made more at a higher percentage. Herro is very good, no question. Monk is a just a step above him.

 

[CalipariCapo]

The whole run in itself is eerily similar.
-2 seed both years
-UNC our one seed (both teams beat UNC previously in the year so UNC will be looking for revenge yet again)
-Toughest region in the tournament both years
-Winner of the title more than likely comes out of the UNC/UK game. Just like 2017
-Would have to beat three 30 win teams to advance to the Final Four just like 2017
-This teams regular season record was basically the exact same as 2017

Let’s just hope and pray that PJ gets healthy and we can right the wrong that was John Higgins in 2017 and make it past the Elite 8 this time!

 

[LightningCats]

2017: ACC media darlings gifted a win in the round of 32 when a blatent charge is disregarded and officials go on to make other egregious calls to enable them to win that game. They are gifted two other games by terrible officiating including one of the biggest screwjobs in NCAA tournament history in the regional finals and again in the finals.

2019: ACC media darlings gifted a win in the round of 32 when a blatent charge is disregarded and officials go on to make other egregious calls to enable them to win that game... (to be continued...)

So far 2017 compares pretty evenly with 2019. Hoping the paths diverge in the near future.

As for the UK team, I think the '17 team was better equipped for a tourney run. They had a fantastic point guard, an off-the-charts athletic center and a true go-to scorer. I like this team, but the '17 team was better all around. That being said, this team can win. We have to get PJ back on the floor though.

 

[BlueCat43]

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

Are we talking about talent or effect on the game? I think Monk and Herro may be a wash but Reid had a bigger effect than Bam.

 

[KA4Prez_rivals78700]

The '19 bench is much better. PJ not playing changes the whole dynamic of the bench though.

 

[jgodek]

Monk was extremely inconsistent/streaky and if he wasn’t scoring, he brought nothing to the table. That’s why I’d go with Herro. Better all-around player.

 

[$Z71$]

I went back and looked at some stats on Monk after I started this thread. He was a prolific scorer no doubt but I was also surprised at how few rebounds he got.

Can we pin this post after we wax the floor with Houston?

 

[marshalfan]

Can we pin this post after we wax the floor with Houston?

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. I like this team and think we win.

 

[marshalfan]

2017: ACC media darlings gifted a win in the round of 32 when a blatent charge is disregarded and officials go on to make other egregious calls to enable them to win that game. They are gifted two other games by terrible officiating including one of the biggest screwjobs in NCAA tournament history in the regional finals and again in the finals.

2019: ACC media darlings gifted a win in the round of 32 when a blatent charge is disregarded and officials go on to make other egregious calls to enable them to win that game... (to be continued...)

So far 2017 compares pretty evenly with 2019. Hoping the paths diverge in the near future.

As for the UK team, I think the '17 team was better equipped for a tourney run. They had a fantastic point guard, an off-the-charts athletic center and a true go-to scorer. I like this team, but the '17 team was better all around. That being said, this team can win. We have to get PJ back on the floor though.

You can post what you want, but this thread was started to discuss us and not just another bias bitching thread. Some can't help themselves

 

[IrishMike409]

Come on. Herro over Monk? Sorry, not even close.Monk was a dude. Reid over Bam? Love Reid, but Bam was a monster and had no help inside.
'17 team was really good. Only a crooked ref could keep them from the FF.
Possibly the best backcourt Cal has had at UK.

I could certainly be persuaded to take Monk over Herro, but Herro has become an incredible shot maker as the year has gone on, and he's the bigger-better defender. Even when Herro isn't making baskets, he's still doing a lot for us. Can't really say the same about Monk.

I struggled with Reid vs. Bam, but ultimately, Reid's ability to score with his back to the basket won out for me. There were times when we really labored for a basket in 17, and throwing it into Bam and asking him to make a move and go get one…..wasn't going to happen.