Last Dance thoughts?

[Msubulldogfan1]

Honestly, what Lebrón did with that Cleveland team to beat the warriors after being down 3-1 is the most impressive thing I’ve ever seen in the NBA.

 

[LexSCDOG]

I lived in Cleveland in 1990 right out of MSU and got to see Celtics play. Still a playoff team and had the big 3. Bird scored 29 that night, that was back when he had the bad back. Then saw Charles Barkley, Manute Bol and the Sixers. Barkley scored like 31 pts. I can't believe I did not make more of an effort to see the Bulls that yr. I think we had plans to see them but it was snowing pretty good and I decided not to drive(it was like 45 min) to the arena, which as I remember was not downtown but somewhat outside of Cleveland.

 

[Seinfeld]

That and call me petty, but LeBron gave up his claim in my book the day he orchestrated his Heat super team. Was there anything wrong or illegal about it? Of course not, but he’d likely have one title today without calling up his buddies like it’s a pickup game and saying, hey let’s go win some titles. Players just didn’t do that back in the day

 

[Seinfeld]

And before anyone starts spouting off career stats, let’s please not forget that LeBron will have played something in the neighborhood of 18 seasons before he hangs it up. For all intents and purposes, MJ got 11 (13 if you count his Wizards years)

 

[dorndawg]

These young bucks and their Lebron. Lebron's a great player but he's not on my top five. He's pushing it to make my top 10. Kobe was better, MJ was better, Bird was better, Magic was better, and then we get into the line of great centers who were dominant: Hakeem Olajuwan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain. And then you have to go back to Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson. And then you have to consider Julius Erving. Lebron is in there somewhere, but down the list in my opinion.

Just say "I don't know **** about basketball" next time, it's far easier.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Thanks for adding valuable thought to the debate**
No one in this thread is being a dick. Don’t start.

 

[dorndawg]

Duly noted.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

And before anyone starts spouting off career stats, let’s please not forget that LeBron will have played something in the neighborhood of 18 seasons before he hangs it up. For all intents and purposes, MJ got 11 (13 if you count his Wizards years)

Look at playoff series. Lebron has plenty of em where he averages 30/10/9/2/2, some more, some less.

I don’t think it’s crazy to say Lebron is the most athletic human being to ever live imo. Not saying he is, but an argument can certainly be made.

 

[johnson86-1]

These young bucks and their Lebron. Lebron's a great player but he's not on my top five. He's pushing it to make my top 10. Kobe was better, MJ was better, Bird was better, Magic was better, and then we get into the line of great centers who were dominant: Hakeem Olajuwan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain. And then you have to go back to Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson. And then you have to consider Julius Erving. Lebron is in there somewhere, but down the list in my opinion.

MJ was better. You can have the discussion about Bird and Magic. You can't include Kobe. Lebron was better in every aspect of the game than Kobe except for free throw shooting. Pretty comparable scorers; maybe Kobe was better in his prime. Lebron was clearly better everything else, plus he was versatile, and could play and defend any position 1 through 4.

 

[MrKotter]

Look at playoff series. Lebron has plenty of em where he averages 30/10/9/2/2, some more, some less.

I don’t think it’s crazy to say Lebron is the most athletic human being to ever live imo. Not saying he is, but an argument can certainly be made.

No, that's an argument for lunatics. It can't be made with any rationally thinking human

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I’ll always remember Kobe for being clutch and demanding the ball in crunch time. I know lebron has hit some big shots, but I never felt like he rose to the moment like Kobe. I felt like lebron looked for the game winning assist instead of shot. Maybe I’m jaded because I just don’t like lebron.

 

[Drebin]

Just say "I don't know **** about basketball" next time, it's far easier.

Or, you know, you could tell me why you disagree.

 

[Drebin]

MJ was better. You can have the discussion about Bird and Magic. You can't include Kobe. Lebron was better in every aspect of the game than Kobe except for free throw shooting. Pretty comparable scorers; maybe Kobe was better in his prime. Lebron was clearly better everything else, plus he was versatile, and could play and defend any position 1 through 4.

Kobe was a much better "big shot" maker in clutch time than Lebron. Kobe was also a better on-the-floor leader than Lebron. They both were/are scorers, but in different ways. Lebron takes advantages of mismatches (and he gets a lot of those because of his size), while Kobe would be guarded by everyone's top defender every night.

Lebron's key attribute is his size/athleticism combo. If you put Lebron's skill set in Kobe's body or vice versa, we aren't having a debate....Kobe would be clearly better.

Of course, my opinion.

 

[MSUDC11]

LeBron is an all time great but I feel like he is far more polarizing than MJ. Some of it is the over the top obnoxious media coverage he gets, and then you’ve got the fact that he rubbed A LOT of people the wrong way with how he went about leaving for Miami.

Had he never gone to Miami then I wonder how his legacy would be different. Others have mentioned this but his second Cleveland stint was remarkable, particularly winning that one title against the Warriors in the way that they did it.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Kobe was a much better "big shot" maker in clutch time than Lebron. Kobe was also a better on-the-floor leader than Lebron. They both were/are scorers, but in different ways. Lebron takes advantages of mismatches (and he gets a lot of those because of his size), while Kobe would be guarded by everyone's top defender every night.

Lebron's key attribute is his size/athleticism combo. If you put Lebron's skill set in Kobe's body or vice versa, we aren't having a debate....Kobe would be clearly better.

Of course, my opinion.

Are you saying Lebron wasn’t guarded by everyone’s best defender? And holy hell Kobe’s skill set is not close to Lebron. That’s an absurd opinion bro.

And just FYI again, I’m a huge fan of Kobe, I was a lakers fan because of him and shaq. And I really don’t care for Lebron personally. But be rational.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

https://www.12up.com/posts/6052800-lebron-is-more-clutch-than-michael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant

And let this debunk the Lebron “isn’t clutch” argument. That’s patently false as well.

 

[Tin Cup Cowboy]

You normally have good takes more often then not - but saying Kobe wasn't great on defense is flat out wrong.

Tim Duncan holds the record for the most total selections to the All-Defensive Team with 15.[4] Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant follow with 12 total honors each, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has 11 total selections. Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, Garnett and Bryant share the record for most NBA All-Defensive first team selections with nine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team

 

[Tin Cup Cowboy]

I'd say Lebron is the most physically gifted basketball player of all time.

MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time.

 

[ColoradoDawg]

Honestly, what Lebrón did with that Cleveland team to beat the warriors after being down 3-1 is the most impressive thing I’ve ever seen in the NBA.

Draymond Green learned a hard lesson that series. Don't talk **** to Lebron James, especially when you are like the 3rd best player on your team.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

I'd say Lebron is the most physically gifted basketball player of all time.

MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time.

That’s a fair stance. To me, The effect Lebron has on teammates to make the better along with the better assist and rebounding numbers (not even close) and better shooting %, Lebrons number 1.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

No, that's an argument for lunatics. It can't be made with any rationally thinking human

Wut

 

[Seinfeld]

Simple, yet probably the best description I’ve seen yet

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

So no one wants to pick the best player first? Why is lebron better than Jordan?

My thought behind that is people would pick MJ because of his intangibles and alpha mentality.

 

[dorndawg]

Kobe was a much better "big shot" maker in clutch time than Lebron. Kobe was also a better on-the-floor leader than Lebron. They both were/are scorers, but in different ways. Lebron takes advantages of mismatches (and he gets a lot of those because of his size), while Kobe would be guarded by everyone's top defender every night.

Lebron's key attribute is his size/athleticism combo. If you put Lebron's skill set in Kobe's body or vice versa, we aren't having a debate....Kobe would be clearly better.

Of course, my opinion.

Game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason:

Michael Jordan: 7/15 (47%)
Kobe Bryant: 5/22 (23%)
LeBron James: 12/23 (52%)

 

[johnson86-1]

No, that's an argument for lunatics. It can't be made with any rationally thinking human

Depends on how you factor size and strength in to athleticism. If you put together a list of athletic tests, say vertical, vertical reach (i.e., how high you touch to take height into account; I know there is a name for that test that they do at the NFL combine and I'm blanking), 40, bench press, squat, mile, some type of agility test with cones, etc., he'd have a pretty unbeatable composite. Tons of cornerback and PG/SG type athletes that would look as good or better at everything other than size, so it just depends on how much you want to credit being that athletic while also being huge.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Gotcha.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Depends on how you factor size and strength in to athleticism. If you put together a list of athletic tests, say vertical, vertical reach (i.e., how high you touch to take height into account; I know there is a name for that test that they do at the NFL combine and I'm blanking), 40, bench press, squat, mile, some type of agility test with cones, etc., he'd have a pretty unbeatable composite. Tons of cornerback and PG/SG type athletes that would look as good or better at everything other than size, so it just depends on how much you want to credit being that athletic while also being huge.

Size and strength are 2/3s of the athleticism spectrum imo, along with speed. Lebrons off the charts for all of them.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason:

Michael Jordan: 7/15 (47%)
Kobe Bryant: 5/22 (23%)
LeBron James: 12/23 (52%)

That’s surprising. What was the distance on those shots? Not that there is anything wrong with working to get to the rim. Just curious if that is similar.

 

[Drebin]

Game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason:

Michael Jordan: 7/15 (47%)
Kobe Bryant: 5/22 (23%)
LeBron James: 12/23 (52%)

Those stats are surprising, if they are real, but that's really a small sample size. I didn't limit my observations to post-season. Those stats also don't tell us the type of shot they are taking.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

Those stats are surprising, if they are real, but that's really a small sample size. I didn't limit my observations to post-season. Those stats also don't tell us the type of shot they are taking.

That’s not a sample size, that’s an entire career encompassing size. And who cares what type of shot it is, what matters is if the shot goes in.

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

That’s surprising. What was the distance on those shots? Not that there is anything wrong with working to get to the rim. Just curious if that is similar.

I’d almost guarantee most of Jordan’s shots were 15ft and in, same with Lebron.

 

[Rayburn8]

That and call me petty, but LeBron gave up his claim in my book the day he orchestrated his Heat super team. Was there anything wrong or illegal about it? Of course not, but he’d likely have one title today without calling up his buddies like it’s a pickup game and saying, hey let’s go win some titles. Players just didn’t do that back in the day

I’m going to address this and the BS teams hated each other comment.

First Jordan and Ainge seemed to really hate each other, so much so they played golf together before a playoff game. I’m so sick of this revisionist history and after that golf segment I never want to hear about how teams just hated each other back in the day and everyone is too buddy buddy now. People hated each other in today’s game too, just listen to Paul Pierce talk about LeBron for two seconds.

Second, Charles Barkley went to Houston to make a super team, it happened then too. Also I hate how people blame LeBron for finding a solution to the worst front office in the NBA and somehow give Jordan credit because he had a good GM and had someone able to build a team around him. In LeBron’s entire tenure with the cavs who was the second best player, Mo Williams? Like how can you fault a guy for not winning with that. It’s not his fault his GM couldn’t give him a Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman do he went out and got one himself.

It’s a 1A, 1B thing tho in the end. Granted older people I talk to still swear by Wilt so it really is a generational thing.

My view is this, LeBron is the BEST player to ever play the game. Jordan is the GREATEST and most accomplished.

 

[Drebin]

You normally have good takes more often then not - but saying Kobe wasn't great on defense is flat out wrong.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team

.

I didn't say he wasn't great. In fact, I said he was great when he was locked in. I just don't think he was as good a defender as Jordan. Citing number of times on the all defense team really doesn't tell you much except that he was very popular and was one of the better defenders of his era.

 

[johnson86-1]

Those stats are surprising, if they are real, but that's really a small sample size. I didn't limit my observations to post-season. Those stats also don't tell us the type of shot they are taking.

I don't think the type of shot is relevant. All that matters is can you get a good shot off when people know you are going to be taking the shot. Might be that Lebron's size gave him a big advantage. Might be that his willingness and ability to create for teammates meant other teams couldn't sell out to stop hi in the same way they could Kobe. Could be that the sample size is too small (or that they are not evenly distributed across their careers; For example, I think I remember Kobe air balling last second shot in a big game in his first or second year before he was the go to guy where he sort of got criticized for taking it; not sure shots outside of their prime are as relevant to the discusssion).

 

[Seinfeld]

Agreed. I’m frankly surprised that Jordan and LeBron’s numbers are that high. Hitting game tying/winning shots at a 50% clip is absurd

 

[Go Budaw]

Game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason:

Michael Jordan: 7/15 (47%)
Kobe Bryant: 5/22 (23%)
LeBron James: 12/23 (52%)

That’s an extremely specific set of circumstances. Like Drebin said, probably too small of a sample size to make a concrete judgment, although I’m not surprised at all to see Kobe way lower than both LeBron and MJ.

I’d argue that any make / miss in the last two minutes of any game with a point differential of 6 points or less would go a longer way to qualifying to who the “most clutch” is. Those are situations when both the leading team and trailing team absolutely have to have a bucket.

 

[Drebin]

I’m going to address this and the BS teams hated each other comment.

First Jordan and Ainge seemed to really hate each other, so much so they played golf together before a playoff game. I’m so sick of this revisionist history and after that golf segment I never want to hear about how teams just hated each other back in the day and everyone is too buddy buddy now. People hated each other in today’s game too, just listen to Paul Pierce talk about LeBron for two seconds.

Second, Charles Barkley went to Houston to make a super team, it happened then too. Also I hate how people blame LeBron for finding a solution to the worst front office in the NBA and somehow give Jordan credit because he had a good GM and had someone able to build a team around him. In LeBron’s entire tenure with the cavs who was the second best player, Mo Williams? Like how can you fault a guy for not winning with that. It’s not his fault his GM couldn’t give him a Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman do he went out and got one himself.

It’s a 1A, 1B thing tho in the end. Granted older people I talk to still swear by Wilt so it really is a generational thing.

My view is this, LeBron is the BEST player to ever play the game. Jordan is the GREATEST and most accomplished.

A couple of counter-points.

Pippen wasn't a free agent that was brought in to supplement Jordan. He was a guy out of college who developed his game and had success in large part because he was playing next to Michael Jordan, which gave him opportunities that he may not have gotten if he were THE GUY playing for the Sacramento Kings.

Also, Jordan won titles before Rodman got there. Horace Grant was a big part of those early championship teams, but I wouldn't call either he or Dennis Rodman good enough to be considered one of a "big three." They were great role players.

Also, that Barkley/Houston team wasn't a "super team." It was full of future hall of famers, but they were all old guys at that point and were past their primes.

 

[Rayburn8]

MJ was not only the GOAT but was great out making others play better around him, that's a huge difference in him and Lebron. He was a great team player and knew when to take over a game, I will add Magic Johnson was also great in making others play better around him. Larry Bird had MJ drive but wasn't as athletic as MJ. Lastly you guys are too young to know how great Wilt was in his day. He was very athletic, maybe not outside shooting but all around athletic, in fact the best ever all around atletic for his size. Dude was great in track and other sports in his youth. I remember when he challenged Ali to a fight, it never happened but to me it would have been interesting and I would have paid to watch.
Oh, in Wilt's day, there were some really awesome centers, since his retirement there aren't near as great to good centers playing basketball that can donate like Wilt. My next best great big man would have been Jabber, his sky hook may not ever be duplicated!

Sorry to get off Last Dance but what a great two shows!

P.S. On the debate of Lebron being better than MJ, as much as I hated the Celtics but IF I was picking a team and it came down to Bird or Lebron, it's Bird for me. Dude had what MJ had in attitude to winning and focus! Just saying.

You’re aware the strongest point LeBron people have is he made players around him better than Jordan did? The Bulls were still a in the NBA when Jordan left, the Bulls won 55 games. When LeBron left the Cavs, they had the worst winning percentage in history at the time. You can make a lot of arguments for Jordan over LeBron, but picking making the guys around him better, the best argument people for LeBron over Jordan is just weird.

 

[hatfieldms]

I completely agree. We had this discussion the other day. IMO he and Durant both will be known for having to leave to go join super teams to win a title.

No way in hell would Bird, Magic, and Jordan ever thought about joining up together

 

[Msubulldogfan1]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndic...5-late-game-players-in-recent-memory.amp.html