It’s really well done. Wish I could watch the other 8 episodes right now.
Pippen’s contract was criminal.
Pippen’s contract was criminal.
Last Dance thoughts?
- Thread starter dawgstudent
- Start date
Man, the Jordan Bulls era was the absolute peak of my NBA fandom, so this series is such a cool trip down memory lane for me. I’m really glad they decided to give the story its due and not try to cram too much in to a 2-hr special.
The Pippen deal is just nuts because it just wouldn’t happen today. We live in an era when 6th men off the bench are getting $100M deals, so it’s hard to fathom, but his 7-yr contract with the Bulls would’ve been about like Kevin Durant being the 100th highest paid player for the last decade. It’s just nuts, and on one hand, it allowed Kraus to mold the roster that won 6 titles. On the other, Scottie got a really rough deal that he signed mind you, but that cost him probably $70-100M
I can’t wait for them to get into some of their rivalries with the Pistons and Knicks because the NBA just doesn’t allow you to play like that anymore. Teams genuinely hated each other. Also, I’ll say again the Kobe is the only player that deserves to even have his name mentioned with Michael. They are the only two to have ever been wired like that while also having the talent to do it
The Pippen deal is just nuts because it just wouldn’t happen today. We live in an era when 6th men off the bench are getting $100M deals, so it’s hard to fathom, but his 7-yr contract with the Bulls would’ve been about like Kevin Durant being the 100th highest paid player for the last decade. It’s just nuts, and on one hand, it allowed Kraus to mold the roster that won 6 titles. On the other, Scottie got a really rough deal that he signed mind you, but that cost him probably $70-100M
I can’t wait for them to get into some of their rivalries with the Pistons and Knicks because the NBA just doesn’t allow you to play like that anymore. Teams genuinely hated each other. Also, I’ll say again the Kobe is the only player that deserves to even have his name mentioned with Michael. They are the only two to have ever been wired like that while also having the talent to do it
Pippen was advised by many, including his representation, and even worse...THE OWNER OF THE BULLS not to sign that deal. He did it because he wanted the long term security of a seven year deal.
I agree that Pippen was grossly underpaid, but it's his fault that he signed that deal. And while it's true that Jerry Krause was pretty much a moron, it would have been negligent for him to not look into trading Pippen, as you had the opportunity to move a guy many thought was the second best player in the NBA that was due only 2.8M in the last year of his deal, when you know he's not going to resign in Chicago. Can you imagine the return he could have gotten from such a trade?
Pippen initially came off sympathetic but the way he handled things that last year made him look petty and selfish.
What, no lebron love?**
I agree. Jordan’s prime was before I was old enough to fully understand what I was watching. Kobe was incredible to watch. I would put lebron and Shaq on the same level. Maybe I’m biased towards guards.
I agree. Jordan’s prime was before I was old enough to fully understand what I was watching. Kobe was incredible to watch. I would put lebron and Shaq on the same level. Maybe I’m biased towards guards.
I think there's a lot of revisionist history on Kobe right now. Kobe was great - and probably the greatest of his generation, at being able to take over a game on the offensive end, but while he was decent enough defensively, he wasn't the two way player that Jordan was. Probably the most underappreciated thing about Jordan was his defense, and when we get into these debates about who's greater than whom, I think that's what separates Jordan from the pack.
I don't think Kobe was the leader that Jordan was, either. Kobe often feuded with his teammates, and while Jordan was no angel, everyone knew he was driven by winning and demanding excellence. He didn't sulk when he didn't get the ball and he didn't mind sharing the spotlight with Pippen....something that Kobe struggled with.
I'm not taking anything away from Kobe...he was great. I don't think his name belongs in the same sentence as Jordan's, though. There's a very short list of those names: Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Oscar, Wilt, and maybe Dr. J.
I love these debates. We get into them at work all the time.
Shaq was dominant but wasn't particularly skilled. He was just bigger than everyone else. If he got further than 8 feet from the basket, he wasn't scoring. He was imposing on the defensive end and was a tremendous athlete. I would have loved to have seen Shaq face Kareem or Wilt in their primes. As it was, Shaq struggled against Hakeem.
LeBron is probably the most overrated NBA player in history. He is a great player, and maybe the greatest of this generation, but he doesn't make my personal top ten list for all time players. You should compare Larry Bird's numbers to LeBron's during their first five years.
I'd hardly call Krause a moron. He obviously got entitled and made some bad decisions at the end but that is like calling a politician dumb. They have to be bright to be in their spot to begin with.
He did a great job of building that team, and deserves credit for it. Trading for Pippen, trading for Cartwright early on. Going out and getting Horace Grant and later Rodman. He also did a great job of alienating his players and his coach. His open courting of Toni Kukoc, for example, alienated Jordan and Pippen. He further alienated both of them with how he handled Pippen's contract (which wasn't completely his fault). And then of course, his open flirtation with Tim Floyd while Phil Jackson was still the coach of the Bulls - that was negligent. He thought he was the smartest guy in the room and couldn't check his Napoleon-esque ego. Reinsdorf did a lot to keep him in check or it would have been worse.
Kobe wasn't the athlete that Jordan was, but he was wired like Jordan as far as being driven. The difference is he was driven a little more by his legacy where as Jordan was consumed by competition and status in the moment. That meant his obsessive behaviors carried a little more negatives than Jordans, but Jordan's came with some negatives too. THey were just dwarfed by the positives.
I think you are underselling Kobe on defense though. He didn't have Jordan's athleticism, but he was still athletic compared to the non-absolute freak NBA players and he played good defense.
You don't have to be bright to be a politician. In some districts, it can be an impediment. You have to be above average intelligence to win a presidential campaign and mostly senate campaigns (I'm sure there are probably several exceptions in each Senate), but you can absolutely be a moron and win a representative spot.
When Kobe was locked in on defense, he was a great defender. But he wasn't always locked in on defense. He was a lot more offensive-minded.
Again, I'm not taking anything away from Kobe. He was great. I just never saw him as on Jordan's level, particularly on the defensive end.
Krause wasn’t dumb. He had legitimate reason for entertaining offers on Pippen and made a bunch of really good moves to assemble that roster.
He also had horrific interpersonal skills and was clueless when it came to managing personalities. Pretty much the complete opposite of Phil Jackson.
He also had horrific interpersonal skills and was clueless when it came to managing personalities. Pretty much the complete opposite of Phil Jackson.
Inside 8’ Shaq was unstoppable
That’s why he stayed there. That’s why I put him in the same category as Lebron. Their dominance is due to their size. Put either in Jordan or Kobe’s body, and they wouldn’t be anything more than a role player at best.
I agree on Bird being better than Lebron.
That’s why he stayed there. That’s why I put him in the same category as Lebron. Their dominance is due to their size. Put either in Jordan or Kobe’s body, and they wouldn’t be anything more than a role player at best.
I agree on Bird being better than Lebron.
Don’t entirely agree about the statement regarding Kobe’s defense, but I do agree with the leadership piece. Both had massive spotlights on them throughout their entire careers, but whereas Jordan simply accepted it, Kobe craved it. I think that led to much of his tension with teammates, and he was pretty deep into his career before he seemed to have finally figured it out.
It’s crazy thinking about how both Kobe and Jordan could feasibly have 2-3 more titles apiece if they had handled certain situations differently, but either way... both definitely left their mark. There was a drive to be the best that you just don’t see often
It’s crazy thinking about how both Kobe and Jordan could feasibly have 2-3 more titles apiece if they had handled certain situations differently, but either way... both definitely left their mark. There was a drive to be the best that you just don’t see often
Happens a lot in California. You can even be a moron incapable of consistently putting together complete sentences and coherent thoughts yet become Speaker of the House. You pretty much just have to be the most liberal candidate on the ballot...attack conservatives at every turn, promise the most "free" stuff, etc.
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I heard Cowherd say today that he had talked to friends that have already viewed all 10 episodes and they said the first two were the two weakest episodes of the series. This is gonna be fun. And much needed.
Watched today..It cemented my view that MJ is the GOAT. Lebron isn’t...but he’s close.
Show was fantastic...ready for the rest.
Show was fantastic...ready for the rest.
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I’m still in the camp of taking LeBron over Jordan, even though I recognize that there is a tremendous argument for Jordan being the best ever...
However, after watching these first two episodes, I had forgot how Jordan had this ability to transcend gravity. He looks like he could float if he wanted to. His athleticism was second to no one.
However, after watching these first two episodes, I had forgot how Jordan had this ability to transcend gravity. He looks like he could float if he wanted to. His athleticism was second to no one.
I grew up with that poster of him dunking from the FT line almost levitating in the dunk contest. And that’s with me growing up a diehard Lakers fan.
It always amazed me that he couldn’t shoot free throws. Someone that athletic couldn’t develop the muscle memory to produce a decent ft shot. I can still hear my dad saying “let me coach him for 15 minutes, he’ll hit at least hit 70%”. I bet he said that every Shaq game we ever watched together. I always wanted to say “yeah dad, I’m sure no ones tried.” thankfully I was able to bite my tongue.
Yes Lebron is a great player. I still see no argument where you take him over Jordan. None at all
They both could be changed out as far as best players in the history in the NBA but what separates Jordan is the last 2 minutes. He would win you the game. Lebron is sometimes just too passive when it comes to late game situations.
You ever tried to shoot a nerf basketball? It's not easy. That's what I always imagined what it was like for Shaq.
I knew it was going to happen, I just didn’t know when......but they started playing the starting lineup music... I choked up.
There’s a handful of sounds and smells that take me back to my basketball childhood......one being the smell of opening a new pack of cards, sifting through em until you saw that bulls jersey ....a more unique one but the smell of a charter bus exhaust, from traveling with the NHS basketball teams 88-94....
I’ve heard that song 1000 times......but when the arena dropped the lights and the echo of “Your Chicago Bulls” would rattle through my TV set.......it gave me an uncontrollable sense of pride and joy.
Watching him play was an absolute treat.
He was as predictably unpredictable as anyone who ever dribbled the rock. If it was a close game, you knew he was about to take over. Everyone knew what he was going to do. You couldn’t stop it. I hope he talks about getting in his “zone” Ice water.
Poetry in motion.
Closet thing to MJ in any sport would have to be Tiger Woods. Laser focus and perfection drove them both crazy.
There’s a handful of sounds and smells that take me back to my basketball childhood......one being the smell of opening a new pack of cards, sifting through em until you saw that bulls jersey ....a more unique one but the smell of a charter bus exhaust, from traveling with the NHS basketball teams 88-94....
I’ve heard that song 1000 times......but when the arena dropped the lights and the echo of “Your Chicago Bulls” would rattle through my TV set.......it gave me an uncontrollable sense of pride and joy.
Watching him play was an absolute treat.
He was as predictably unpredictable as anyone who ever dribbled the rock. If it was a close game, you knew he was about to take over. Everyone knew what he was going to do. You couldn’t stop it. I hope he talks about getting in his “zone” Ice water.
Poetry in motion.
Closet thing to MJ in any sport would have to be Tiger Woods. Laser focus and perfection drove them both crazy.
Maybe so
But other 7 footers have been able to no problem. His shot wasn’t even repeatable. Looked like he tried different form every other game.
Lebron is the best basketball player of all time. Michael Jordan is who everyone is picking first on their team.
MJ was not only the GOAT but was great out making others play better around him, that's a huge difference in him and Lebron. He was a great team player and knew when to take over a game, I will add Magic Johnson was also great in making others play better around him. Larry Bird had MJ drive but wasn't as athletic as MJ. Lastly you guys are too young to know how great Wilt was in his day. He was very athletic, maybe not outside shooting but all around athletic, in fact the best ever all around atletic for his size. Dude was great in track and other sports in his youth. I remember when he challenged Ali to a fight, it never happened but to me it would have been interesting and I would have paid to watch.
Oh, in Wilt's day, there were some really awesome centers, since his retirement there aren't near as great to good centers playing basketball that can donate like Wilt. My next best great big man would have been Jabber, his sky hook may not ever be duplicated!
Sorry to get off Last Dance but what a great two shows!
P.S. On the debate of Lebron being better than MJ, as much as I hated the Celtics but IF I was picking a team and it came down to Bird or Lebron, it's Bird for me. Dude had what MJ had in attitude to winning and focus! Just saying.
Oh, in Wilt's day, there were some really awesome centers, since his retirement there aren't near as great to good centers playing basketball that can donate like Wilt. My next best great big man would have been Jabber, his sky hook may not ever be duplicated!
Sorry to get off Last Dance but what a great two shows!
P.S. On the debate of Lebron being better than MJ, as much as I hated the Celtics but IF I was picking a team and it came down to Bird or Lebron, it's Bird for me. Dude had what MJ had in attitude to winning and focus! Just saying.
These young bucks and their Lebron. Lebron's a great player but he's not on my top five. He's pushing it to make my top 10. Kobe was better, MJ was better, Bird was better, Magic was better, and then we get into the line of great centers who were dominant: Hakeem Olajuwan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain. And then you have to go back to Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson. And then you have to consider Julius Erving. Lebron is in there somewhere, but down the list in my opinion.
I’m 31, and about as big of a Kobe fan as there is. If you don’t have Lebron in your top 10, your list is ****.
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