Kentucky Derby

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
9,805
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I used to love going to State Fair Park and stare at the racing form. The amount of data to consider can be overwhelming.
It's kinda like looking for a four leaf clover. If you're mowing your yard and you're not looking for anything in particular, you'll walk over it. But, if you know there's a four leaf clover there, at least you know what you're looking for.

As I like to say, "All numbers can be counted, but not all numbers count."
 

Wasker77

Senior
Dec 23, 2014
2,943
620
0
I haven’t bet the ponies for a long time and when I did it wasn’t done by analysis. The depth you guys go in to fascinates me. 👍. Great topic.
There is definitely an art to betting on the ponies. One of my really good friend's dad always had racehorses back in the sixties and seventies. His older brother learned how to handicap races from their dad's betting friends and their trainer. (It seemed like the trainers always knew what horse was going to win the race). He is still pretty good at handicapping races. My friend's son went down to Miami early last summer for his bachelor party weekend. The older brother handicapped races for the bachelor party when they went to the track and they all did fairly well with their bets.
 

dpnavy

Redshirt
Jan 24, 2012
521
35
28
Yep, going 2 turns on a bullring is a lot different that a one turn 6f on a mile track. I used to play Linda Davidson and also her dad Wayne who was a helluva horseman too.

I haven't been doing much on the Derby on this site cause there's been very little interest here and I've spent the majority of my time on another site that has more appreciation for what I do. LOL

I've pretty well narrowed down my plays so now its just a waiting game for the weather, any late defections, etc.
After that, the gate opens and see how it all unfolds.

Good to hear from you dp, hope things are well for you in Hastings.
Always glad when veteran horse players give interesting words of wisdom & experiences. On a short note Fonnors horse payoffs has grown quite a bit. Yes, I remember Linda D. The casino, Im not a player has moved the needle. Thanks DP Navy to all!😊😊
 

Dean Pope

All-Conference
Oct 11, 2001
13,288
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It's kinda like looking for a four leaf clover. If you're mowing your yard and you're not looking for anything in particular, you'll walk over it. But, if you know there's a four leaf clover there, at least you know what you're looking for.

As I like to say, "All numbers can be counted, but not all numbers count."
Excellent quote. I have a buddy who used to go to the track all of the time. He spent 1/10th of the time looking at his form as I did mine. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing to be honest. I used to look at the quality of the races that horses had run in. Or if recently a losing horse had just had a bad trip. In the end, I went with value. I was a sucker for an exacta that was paying out more than it should.
 
Jul 4, 2016
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Asmussen is coming into the Derby with 2 horses, Tiztastic and the maiden Publisher. Oddly enough, I'm gonna have Publisher on the bottom half of some of my exotics because he has been outworking Tiztastic by a ton and since Asmussen added the blinkers from Publisher last out, that horse took a big jump forward. He wasn't gonna catch Sandman in his last race, but this horse will get the distance.

His pattern is 17,14,11//11,7,3. Last year as a 2 year old, he was very slow. He began his 3 year old season with matching his best 2 year old performance, then in his second out he moved forward 4 points again. Then they took the blinkers off and he moved forward another 4 points. So, the 3 in his last race makes him an outside contender if things fall just right for him. He had 34 days off between his "7" and the "3" and now he comes into the Derby with 35 days rest, so he's a relatively fresh horse on Derby day. He's had 6 career races and continues to develop. I've spent money on worse animals in the Derby.

The biggest negative for me? Believe it or not its because Irad Ortiz is riding. Now, we both know either Irad or Prat are the two best jockeys in the country. Problem is, in the Derby, Prat has ridden 7 times and moved 5 horses up, in other words, they ran better performance figures in the Derby than their last prep race.
Irad is 0-7 in that category. That can change since he's a great jockey, just hasn't gotten it done yet. A point I have to make is Prat is named as the jockey on Neoequos but IF Baeza draws in Prat is named, and will ride Baeza in the Derby. That would make Baeza very dangerous.

If the spirit moves me, and guys don't start giving me ****, I'll try to do a little analysis similar to this to maybe give some insight as to why a horse may or may not run well. Purely a chance project since all things change once that gate opens. I can't guarantee who will win or even run well, but I can guarantee chaos will ensue.

The last piece I'll do, maybe Thursday or Friday is the individual and herd dynamics of the main contenders/or any horse that one of the forum members would like my thoughts about. Just understand, I'm not going to talk anyone onto a horse or off a horse because people are entitled to wager their own opinions and I've been wrong before. The caveat being I did tell dingle that Journalism looks very tough, but I doubt any horseplayer would disagree.

MEANWHILE PELINI, I WANT YOUR INPUT SO OTHERS THAT READ THIS CAN HAVE AS MUCH INSIGHT AS POSSIBLE. I've been waiting 3 years for you to get heavily involved in this process...make it happen.

(**Edited**)
You know I appreciate you my man, but I am so much meh on this year’s KD. I think if Journalism runs a B+ race he wins by 3 lengths.

I’m pretty sure Sovereignty will point to a new top…Mott is the man there…but it will have to be a serious new top.

Luxor Cafe is a serious horse IMO and I will use all over.

I believe Publisher will get in the top 4 unless Ortiz goes stupid. This horse will be over bet though because I think he’ll be the “wiseguy” horse.

I actually think the Joseph horse could be a perfect suck-up horse to sneak into the Tri/Super.


Either way, I will spend much more $$ on the undercard.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
9,805
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113
Always glad when veteran horse players give interesting words of wisdom & experiences. On a short note Fonnors horse payoffs has grown quite a bit. Yes, I remember Linda D. The casino, Im not a player has moved the needle. Thanks DP Navy to all!😊😊
Hey man, you always give me good stuff to flash back on, that means you've been doing this a LONG time buddy.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
9,805
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Excellent quote. I have a buddy who used to go to the track all of the time. He spent 1/10th of the time looking at his form as I did mine. I really didn't know what the hell I was doing to be honest. I used to look at the quality of the races that horses had run in. Or if recently a losing horse had just had a bad trip. In the end, I went with value. I was a sucker for an exacta that was paying out more than it should.
Pelini has the right idea on a big day like Derby day. Many trainers, especially the smaller ones, really point for days like this because of the huge handle at virtually every race track. It ALWAYS pays to pay attention to who is winning some of those earlier races because many times they come right back 3-4-5-6 races later and have another horse who outruns their odds.

It is not unusual, and looking at Result Charts from today will bear this out, a lot of lower profile trainers will win 2 or more races today, and sometimes those are your 10% win percentage type guys.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
9,805
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You know I appreciate you my man, but I am so much meh on this year’s KD. I think if Journalism runs a B+ race he wins by 3 lengths.

I’m pretty sure Sovereignty will point to a new top…Mott is the man there…but it will have to be a serious new top.

Luxor Cafe is a serious horse IMO and I will use all over.

I believe Publisher will get in the top 4 unless Ortiz goes stupid. This horse will be over bet though because I think he’ll be the “wiseguy” horse.

I actually think the Joseph horse could be a perfect suck-up horse to sneak into the Tri/Super.


Either way, I will spend much more $$ on the undercard.
To be honest, I got my Performance Figures on April 12, so I had about 20 days to look at all the horses. Until 3-4 days ago I was wondering how the hell I was gonna play the race. I really think there are a lot of horses that could hit the board because so many speed horses and closers and those mid runners.

The young man I mentor likes Neoequos also and I hope he runs well, but I don't have him on a single ticket, so if I'm wrong, maybe I should be listening to the 45 year old guy I'm teaching. LOL He's actually damn good cause 2 years ago when he entered the Players Championship tournament in Vegas with about 700 top players, he came within 20 CENTS of making it to the final table. So, I think he came in about 9th.

I went to the track this morning and made all my exotic bets and of course, Grande scratched, so I had to insert a different horse in his spot, but it was a horse I may have had one rung lower, so I think it will still work out. I actually wagered less than I intended cause I hate to lose more than I love to win. Like you, I hope to do my damage at other tracks and already be far enough ahead that the Derby would just be gravy. I'm not a fan of the races on the undercard at Churchill, but its nice to see a lot of full fields.

This was about the time last year when Asmussen really popped some of his sprinters. When it comes to getting dirt sprint horses sharp, few are better than ***.

Good luck tomorrow to you and all the others who are playing the ponies.

Two horses that will revel in all the chaos are Soverignty and Tiztastic. Their mental make ups seems to thrive in that type of chaos. Doesn't mean either will get a good trip, but they're built for it.

Funny how both Rodriguez and Grande from the Wood came out of the race with foot issues.
 
Jul 4, 2016
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To be honest, I got my Performance Figures on April 12, so I had about 20 days to look at all the horses. Until 3-4 days ago I was wondering how the hell I was gonna play the race. I really think there are a lot of horses that could hit the board because so many speed horses and closers and those mid runners.

The young man I mentor likes Neoequos also and I hope he runs well, but I don't have him on a single ticket, so if I'm wrong, maybe I should be listening to the 45 year old guy I'm teaching. LOL He's actually damn good cause 2 years ago when he entered the Players Championship tournament in Vegas with about 700 top players, he came within 20 CENTS of making it to the final table. So, I think he came in about 9th.

I went to the track this morning and made all my exotic bets and of course, Grande scratched, so I had to insert a different horse in his spot, but it was a horse I may have had one rung lower, so I think it will still work out. I actually wagered less than I intended cause I hate to lose more than I love to win. Like you, I hope to do my damage at other tracks and already be far enough ahead that the Derby would just be gravy. I'm not a fan of the races on the undercard at Churchill, but its nice to see a lot of full fields.

This was about the time last year when Asmussen really popped some of his sprinters. When it comes to getting dirt sprint horses sharp, few are better than ***.

Good luck tomorrow to you and all the others who are playing the ponies.

Two horses that will revel in all the chaos are Soverignty and Tiztastic. Their mental make ups seems to thrive in that type of chaos. Doesn't mean either will get a good trip, but they're built for it.

Funny how both Rodriguez and Grande from the Wood came out of the race with foot issues.
So let’s get the undercard going…

I love the #5 in the 6th.
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
83
My numbers all point to a fairly chalky Kentucky Derby, even if it is a wet track.

Journalism is a deserving favorite. And not without questions with racing in the small fields on the Left Coast.

Rest all have serious questions. Mostly distance, but each and everything in between.

Like the Japan horse in Luxor Cafe. Sharp. Winner. American Breeding, can run late.

I'm on 4 horses that are fairly chalky, in order:

Luxor Cafe
Journalism
Sovereignty
Baeza
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
83
A special note for all you fans of this great race is Baeza.

Baeza
is the third straight runner out of the mare Puca to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Mage
, Dornoch, and now Baeza. That means momma, in her last and only 3 chances, has pumped out a Kentucky Derby winner, a Belmont Stakes winner, and this guy in Baeza.

It is one thing for a sire to 'pump' out Triple Crown race winners when they are giving their juice 100 times or more a year. Obviously a completely different story when a single offering each year is amassing such greatness. Go Puca!
 

Dean Pope

All-Conference
Oct 11, 2001
13,288
1,055
0
Pelini has the right idea on a big day like Derby day. Many trainers, especially the smaller ones, really point for days like this because of the huge handle at virtually every race track. It ALWAYS pays to pay attention to who is winning some of those earlier races because many times they come right back 3-4-5-6 races later and have another horse who outruns their odds.

It is not unusual, and looking at Result Charts from today will bear this out, a lot of lower profile trainers will win 2 or more races today, and sometimes those are your 10% win percentage type guys.
Do you (or anyone else on here) ever look at the online head to head prop bets? As far as who will finish ahead of the other?

Some of the bets that are closer to even money- Citizen Bull vs. Final Gambit, Final Gambit vs. American Promise, Luxor Cafe vs. Burnham Square, East Avenue vs. Tiztastic, Burnham Square vs Sandman, Admire Daytona vs. Flying Mohawk.
 

Man Woman & Child

All-Conference
Dec 31, 2003
3,243
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113
A special note for all you fans of this great race is Baeza.

Baeza
is the third straight runner out of the mare Puca to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Mage
, Dornoch, and now Baeza. That means momma, in her last and only 3 chances, has pumped out a Kentucky Derby winner, a Belmont Stakes winner, and this guy in Baeza.

It is one thing for a sire to 'pump' out Triple Crown race winners when they are giving their juice 100 times or more a year. Obviously a completely different story when a single offering each year is amassing such greatness. Go Puca!

Jeezus that's a hell of a mare. I didn't realize that. Has to be the best of all time, right?
 

Man Woman & Child

All-Conference
Dec 31, 2003
3,243
1,102
113
A special note for all you fans of this great race is Baeza.

Baeza
is the third straight runner out of the mare Puca to run in the Kentucky Derby.

Mage
, Dornoch, and now Baeza. That means momma, in her last and only 3 chances, has pumped out a Kentucky Derby winner, a Belmont Stakes winner, and this guy in Baeza.

It is one thing for a sire to 'pump' out Triple Crown race winners when they are giving their juice 100 times or more a year. Obviously a completely different story when a single offering each year is amassing such greatness. Go Puca!

I just bought a few shares of her 2024 colt. I'll either thank you or cuss you later 😂

 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
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Jeezus that's a hell of a mare. I didn't realize that. Has to be the best of all time, right?

Been wagering on ponies, the Triple Crown, Breeders Cup, etc. for well over 30 years.

Can't ever recall a mare with this much success. In breeding it almost always comes down to Sire and Damsire. Obviously they have a much bigger impact on 1,000 times the chances and legacy. (And the greats deserve their notoriety).

However, I can't ever recall a single mare offering such greatness when they are obviously only given a single chance each and every year. It is hard to have a mare that spits out horses that can win a race much less stakes races, much less get to the Kentucky Derby as 3YOs.

Hopefully they talk about it today. It is truly amazing.
 
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Capiche

Junior
Jul 28, 2011
2,388
364
83
Jeezus that's a hell of a mare. I didn't realize that. Has to be the best of all time, right?
Urban Sea, an American bred race mare, not only won the 1993 Arc De Triomphe, IMHO the greatest turf race in the world , but was also a world-class broodmare. Her offspring included Galileo and Sea the Stars, both whom won the Arc. Galileo later became the most prominent sire in Europe and possibly the greatest of all time. His prodigy include Frankel, the greatest turf miler of all-time and Timeform's highest rated racehorse of all-time.

Sea the Stars won 8 of 9 lifetime starts, including 6 grade one wins in 2009. He is considered one of the greatest turf horses of all time.
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
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Urban Sea, an American bred race mare, not only won the 1993 Arc De Triomphe, IMHO the greatest turf race in the world , but was also a world-class broodmare. Her offspring included Galileo and Sea the Stars, both whom won the Arc. Galileo later became the most prominent sire in Europe and possibly the greatest of all time. His prodigy include Frankel, the greatest turf miler of all-time and Timeform's highest rated racehorse of all-time.

Sea the Stars won 8 of 9 lifetime starts, including 6 grade one wins in 2009. He is considered one of the greatest turf horses of all time.

Frankel was truly a once in a lifetime horse.

Not sure we'll ever see a stronger more powerful finisher. Absolutely incredible horse.

 

Capiche

Junior
Jul 28, 2011
2,388
364
83
Frankel was truly a once in a lifetime horse.

Not sure we'll ever see a stronger more powerful finisher. Absolutely incredible horse.


He had an unbelievable turn of foot. Frankel was a great horse. I always favor the turf horses that won the classics, Epsom Derby and Arc. Check out Seabird's Epsom Derby and Arc wins in 1965, another powerful finisher. He is rated right behind Frankel on the all-time list.
 

Extreme55

All-American
Nov 23, 2015
5,567
6,797
81
Kudos to your wife for allowing you to cut loose a little and have some real fun without compromising your overall finances. Two things to remember, supers are $ 1.00 on Derby day, and IF you hit something nice, make damn sure you reward your wife with any windfall.
Like a good hard 12 seconds in the sack???
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
83
I used to love going to State Fair Park and stare at the racing form. The amount of data to consider can be overwhelming.

Ha. Took a mere 5 or so years to learn all the ins and outs of the racing form.

If you think that is crazy, now you can throw in 'figure' makes like Thorograph, Ragozin Sheets, TimeformUS, and countless others along with computer software programs and online site like Equinedge.

Now, in the new age we have CAWs (Computer Assisted Wagering) systems backed by millionaires diluting pools and getting late odds advantages us simpletons can never achieve. Throw in AI now, and if you think you are looking for a mathematical edge, you are already beat.

Game is tougher than it has ever been, with smaller fields and horses that race less and less giving us Average Joes less and less a chance of making a buck or two.

But I've been addicted to it for so long, I simply don't know any better. The mental challenge it brings about is fascinating. Every race can be its own Rubiks Cube. I still enjoy the puzzle and the brain meld it takes to handicap a horse race.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
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Ha. Took a mere 5 or so years to learn all the ins and outs of the racing form.

If you think that is crazy, now you can throw in 'figure' makes like Thorograph, Ragozin Sheets, TimeformUS, and countless others along with computer software programs and online site like Equinedge.

Now, in the new age we have CAWs (Computer Assisted Wagering) systems backed by millionaires diluting pools and getting late odds advantages us simpletons can never achieve. Throw in AI now, and if you think you are looking for a mathematical edge, you are already beat.

Game is tougher than it has ever been, with smaller fields and horses that race less and less giving us Average Joes less and less a chance of making a buck or two.

But I've been addicted to it for so long, I simply don't know any better. The mental challenge it brings about is fascinating. Every race can be its own Rubiks Cube. I still enjoy the puzzle and the brain meld it takes to handicap a horse race.
Totally agree the game is more difficult now than ever. Too many tracks which result in too many short fields, it makes some of those tracks almost unplayable.

As you say, the challenge of winning a huge puzzle like the Derby is a blast, because most of the time a guy will not be able to account for something that changes the outcome. Win or lose today, I'll still be looking forward to next year's Derby.
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
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My numbers all point to a fairly chalky Kentucky Derby, even if it is a wet track.

Journalism is a deserving favorite. And not without questions with racing in the small fields on the Left Coast.

Rest all have serious questions. Mostly distance, but each and everything in between.

Like the Japan horse in Luxor Cafe. Sharp. Winner. American Breeding, can run late.

I'm on 4 horses that are fairly chalky, in order:

Luxor Cafe
Journalism
Sovereignty
Baeza

Ex and Tri boxes treating me kindly.

Won't brag about having Final Gambit to fill out the Super.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
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Ex and Tri boxes treating me kindly.

Won't brag about having Final Gambit to fill out the Super.
Final Gambit treated me pretty well, but 17/1 or so was way too low to play any straight money on him. I thought the ex and tri payoffs were pretty light, but I'll gladly take the money. LOL

Soverignty was half the money in the double and pic tickets but twice the money in the pools compared to Sandman, so the inside money was playing the right horse.
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
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Final Gambit treated me pretty well, but 17/1 or so was way too low to play any straight money on him. I thought the ex and tri payoffs were pretty light, but I'll gladly take the money. LOL

Can never argue against a winning ticket I say.
 
Jul 4, 2016
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Final Gambit treated me pretty well, but 17/1 or so was way too low to play any straight money on him. I thought the ex and tri payoffs were pretty light, but I'll gladly take the money. LOL
Looked chalky going in, even a ways back, and it ended up that way.

Horses with Sovereignty’s running style almost never win the Preakness though, so maybe a chance to make $$ there.
 

Husker88

Senior
Dec 9, 2017
2,187
425
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Looked chalky going in, even a ways back, and it ended up that way.

Horses with Sovereignty’s running style almost never win the Preakness though, so maybe a chance to make $$ there.

Sovereignty maxed out today.

No way in Hades he wins the Preakness and/or Belmont.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
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Looked chalky going in, even a ways back, and it ended up that way.

Horses with Sovereignty’s running style almost never win the Preakness though, so maybe a chance to make $$ there.
The suspicion is Baffert scratched Rodriguez because of all the early speed, but may try to pop him in Baltimore.
 

itseasyas1-2-3

All-Conference
Sep 6, 2021
9,805
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Sovereignty maxed out today.

No way in Hades he wins the Preakness and/or Belmont.
Totally agree. If you watch the race he had to crank it up pretty early, so yes, that tank is pretty empty right now.

By the way, I enjoyed exchanging thoughts with you and Pelini this year. You guys did a nice job.
 

Spinner45

Redshirt
Oct 19, 2024
250
0
0
I had money on the sandman named after the Metallica song and adopted basically by Metallica. He had one job, kill em all and nothing else matters. But he rode the lighting but was no master of puppets and did the unforgiven and lost. Yes, sad but true. He lacked the fuel to seek & destroy. Now he’s the king of nothing. Hopefully he goes on to the next race and reloads or his owner will fade to black and there will be no Justice for all