NV very rarely takes a straight on hit, because of his experience. He also has a X factor ability of evading sacks. He is also 24 years old.
Just Play Wimsatt
- Thread starter RUgrad
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Vedral “head and shoulders” possesses a current skill set that gives us a much better chance to win than the version of Gavin we saw in the first 2 games. Gavin young. Week over week improvement can be substantial. But based on where he was at when his injury occurred the comparison was not close. Noah looked like a stud in games like Delaware comparatively. I can’t see how you can argue otherwise.
It's fair to say if Gavin can't read defenses or is not ready to manage the offense he should sit until he is ready, although I personally think you should be able to simplify and script a game plan to allow him to be successful, just like the myriad of other young QB that play early around the country every year.
My previous post was specifically about the frequent references by some posters that he can't take the physical pounding he would potentially take and therefore he shouldn't play. On that I call BS.
I don't think he's head and shoulders better than the other two. This is year three of NV, and not much has changed. If we are going to take the next step and match the talent of the rest of the team (the 2023 future team), then time and energy has to be invested in the young QB. Otherwise, we will be back in the same position we are in now next year. And there won't be NV for some to cry we need him. NV is less likely to take chances and put the team behind the eight-ball. Rutgers doesn't win games because of NV. They limit the chances of losing with him at the helm.
In all my years as a player and coach, NV is the easiest of the three to defend. If you take away one or two things, NV shuts it down and relies on the others (special teams & defense) to create favorable situations where the offense can take advantage. Simon and Wimsatt believe they can make plays, and the talent we know says they can when coached. So, as a defender, you must be alert against Simon or Wimsatt because of their ability to complete plays anywhere on the field. NV plays within 15 yards of the LOS. Those completions on the fade happened because the defense was caught off-guard. Once teams adjust, those plays no longer work.
Also, let's get past perception:
2022 season stats
Simon has 6 INT and has thrown 4 TD. Competition rate of 57.7%. 71 for 123 attempts.
Wimsatt has 2 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 44%. 18 for 39 attempts.
Vedral has 0 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 46%. 10 for 23 attempts.
Can anyone really say NV is head and shoulders above the other two? You have a 3-year starter with similar stats to two other players who have likely played 1/10th of the snaps of NV. Rutgers is in this position because they didn't develop the QB room or add more talent to the group.
FYI: Does anyone remember Teel getting plenty of snaps in 2005 (bowl team) so he could develop? Down the road, it paid off, although it cost Ryan Hart playing time. Rutgers saw the potential of the 2006 and beyond teams, and they knew the QB position was essential to the team's success. Btw, Hart was a good QB. Hart was "head and shoulders" above the competition.
I didn’t see any posts about physicality. That’s not the issue. He could not be trusted to throw the football reliably against Wagner. There was a reason GS went with a 2 guy system - we had one available QB who couldn’t run and one who couldn’t be trusted to throw consistently even against HS level talent. Simplification is not relevant. No matter how simple your offense - being a QB requires on the job adjustments when the defense scopes out your intended plays. Can’t simplify the ability to adjust. He’ll be ready for that when he’s ready. Until then he doesn’t give us the best chance to win.
Perhaps it was the play-calling by Gleeson? He seemed clueless about how to use and get the most out of the players. Nunzio got more out of NV on Saturday than in a long time.
Simplification is relevant, and it does work when players are coached to a certain level. When I first started coaching in HS (frosh), I got rid of the playbook and used plays from Madden. I used 5 plays with 3 different formations. Most kids know it, and we set offensive records and finished 7-2. Btw, the team had won a game in 2 years.
The two-guy system you speak of has to do with being in the system longer.
I don't think he's head and shoulders better than the other two. This is year three of NV, and not much has changed. If we are going to take the next step and match the talent of the rest of the team (the 2023 future team), then time and energy has to be invested in the young QB. Otherwise, we will be back in the same position we are in now next year. And there won't be NV for some to cry we need him. NV is less likely to take chances and put the team behind the eight-ball. Rutgers doesn't win games because of NV. They limit the chances of losing with him at the helm.
In all my years as a player and coach, NV is the easiest of the three to defend. If you take away one or two things, NV shuts it down and relies on the others (special teams & defense) to create favorable situations where the offense can take advantage. Simon and Wimsatt believe they can make plays, and the talent we know says they can when coached. So, as a defender, you must be alert against Simon or Wimsatt because of their ability to complete plays anywhere on the field. NV plays within 15 yards of the LOS. Those completions on the fade happened because the defense was caught off-guard. Once teams adjust, those plays no longer work.
Also, let's get past perception:
2022 season stats
Simon has 6 INT and has thrown 4 TD. Competition rate of 57.7%. 71 for 123 attempts.
Wimsatt has 2 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 44%. 18 for 39 attempts.
Vedral has 0 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 46%. 10 for 23 attempts.
Can anyone really say NV is head and shoulders above the other two? You have a 3-year starter with similar stats to two other players who have likely played 1/10th of the snaps of NV. Rutgers is in this position because they didn't develop the QB room or add more talent to the group.
FYI: Does anyone remember Teel getting plenty of snaps in 2005 (bowl team) so he could develop? Down the road, it paid off, although it cost Ryan Hart playing time. Rutgers saw the potential of the 2006 and beyond teams, and they knew the QB position was essential to the team's success. Btw, Hart was a good QB. Hart was "head and shoulders" above the competition.
The post i directly replied to clearly states the posters opinion that Wimsatt could not take the beating physically that Simon took against Iowa. Others have posted the same sentiments at various points.
I'm not arguing Wimsatt should play ahead of Vedral although if I was head coach he would.. Despite that, I understand and have no significant quarrel with why Vedral is playing.
You like many others are overstating Wimsatts struggles before his injury. In his last game he threw an ill advised INT and the ensuing drives he learned from his mistake and threw the ball away when he had nothing. We could see him improving before our eyes and GS noted the improved decision making after that game. Yet supposedly Simon is the guy you can trust in the passing game despite the horrible decisions and poor throws resulting in picks.
I don't think he's head and shoulders better than the other two. This is year three of NV, and not much has changed. If we are going to take the next step and match the talent of the rest of the team (the 2023 future team), then time and energy has to be invested in the young QB. Otherwise, we will be back in the same position we are in now next year. And there won't be NV for some to cry we need him. NV is less likely to take chances and put the team behind the eight-ball. Rutgers doesn't win games because of NV. They limit the chances of losing with him at the helm.
In all my years as a player and coach, NV is the easiest of the three to defend. If you take away one or two things, NV shuts it down and relies on the others (special teams & defense) to create favorable situations where the offense can take advantage. Simon and Wimsatt believe they can make plays, and the talent we know says they can when coached. So, as a defender, you must be alert against Simon or Wimsatt because of their ability to complete plays anywhere on the field. NV plays within 15 yards of the LOS. Those completions on the fade happened because the defense was caught off-guard. Once teams adjust, those plays no longer work.
Also, let's get past perception:
2022 season stats
Simon has 6 INT and has thrown 4 TD. Competition rate of 57.7%. 71 for 123 attempts.
Wimsatt has 2 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 44%. 18 for 39 attempts.
Vedral has 0 INT and 1 TD. Competition rate of 46%. 10 for 23 attempts.
Can anyone really say NV is head and shoulders above the other two? You have a 3-year starter with similar stats to two other players who have likely played 1/10th of the snaps of NV. Rutgers is in this position because they didn't develop the QB room or add more talent to the group.
FYI: Does anyone remember Teel getting plenty of snaps in 2005 (bowl team) so he could develop? Down the road, it paid off, although it cost Ryan Hart playing time. Rutgers saw the potential of the 2006 and beyond teams, and they knew the QB position was essential to the team's success. Btw, Hart was a good QB. Hart was "head and shoulders" above the competition.
Um - first of all - you do know Vedral didn’t play against Temple and Wagner, right? How’d Vedral look against Delaware again?
And the completion rate comparisons for this year do not tell close to the whole story anyway even if you take last year’s pre-season comparison out of it. Many of Vedral’s throws have been deliberately thrown away to avoid taking a sack or making a risky throw. Both Evan and Vedral may have been 6 for 15 vs. Nebraska but Evan also took arguably a “game losing sack” which took us out of FG range. Your side by side comparison isn’t accounting for Noah doing the literal polar opposite of that vs. Indiana.
So your arguing that you saw him “improving” against Wagner? That shows that with Vedral healthy he’s better than him? Come on man. Go pull up the Delaware game stats for fair perspective. And Delaware would destroy Wagner by the way.
Improvement in practice is more meaningful anyway (relative to Vedral) than improvement vs Wagner. When he’s beating out Noah in practice then I’m sure he will play. I don’t get why people assume he’s doing this and our coaches are still not playing him.
I think the difference between us is how we see things or rely on others to shape opinions. I understand you're in the NV camp. I have no problem with any of the QB. Let's agree to disagree. There is no need to continue this debate.
I agree with everything you have said. Comparing a 24 year old 10th year Senior to a young man who by the regular course would have graduated high school 4 months ago and is still 18 is not a fair comparison. IMO, Greg has been much more transparent about the QB situation the last few weeks then he has in the past.
Where did i say anyone is better than anyone else or that Wimsatt is beating him in practice? I said and I stand by it , that if I were the head coach I would play Wimsatt at least 50% of every remaining game. Your opinion of what should be done is no more valid than anyone else's and my opinion is getting Wimsatt valuable game reps is a close 2nd to trying to win every remaining game.
Let's hope somebody actually teaches him to read defenses instead of how to stare at the sideline until the play clock is at zero.
May not have been you - that comment was in reference to the post comparing side by stat statistics from this year to argue that based on “real” stats, there isn’t much difference among our options at QB. Being a lot less turnover prone isn’t “nothing” for starters. It’s a big deal.
But I’m also not sure what point your making about Wimsatt “bouncing back” in the Wagner game either. 4 for 12 against Wagner is just REALLY BAD even without that pick. That’s not a game he should need to throw the ball away much in. I mean - Simon and Langhan were a combined 11 of 13 in the same game for perspective.
That performance screamed “not ready”. He barely played vs. Temple, so that’s where we left off and now he’s working his way back from a leg injury (a kid whose strength is running). To me - strings like this one (saying “just play Wimsatt”) are ridiculous. I’m not saying “just play Noah” as you and others are implying. I’m saying Wimsatt should need to prove in practice that he’s A LOT better than that 4-12 Wagner performance because our incumbent is way better than that. NV was 21 for 26 (323 yards) in his only game against an FCS team (a much better one than Wagner). If Wimsatt doesn’t shine in practice why would we “just play him”? We don’t know what’s going on in practice which therefore renders these types of strings pointless because Wimsatt should not play until he proves himself in practice. GS said he’s improving. Why can’t our fans just trust that when he’s ready he will play?
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I just don't get why we'd want to play Winsatt when we're still in the race for a bowl spot and when Vedral, while hardly great, is doing an adequate job now that he's back. It would be different if we had fallen out of the race with Vedral playing, but neither is true. If Winsatt is really good, there will be plenty of opportunity for him next year.
I think we all want the best QB out there Doug but many don't want to throw away games based on what we saw during the OOC schedule. How many times have you talked about needing to change the perception of RU. Getting a 5th or 6th win definitely go a long way towards that no? They've already had two good chances slip through their fingers so it's hard to say go with the young guy sitting at four wins.
If Nunzio can work some magic with Gavin and make him more productive than Noah then all for him taking over. However, we don't know what they are seeing daily or if Greg is playing more mind games by having him dressed and claiming all three QBs were healthy and available. Let's see if they actually bring him into the game this coming week and what happens.
If Wimsatt earns the reps at practice he will and should play this year. That’s clearly not where we are at right this second though and it’s driving me crazy that so many of our fans do not understand this and say - just play him. But for a few uninspiring snaps vs. Temple, he’s coming off a 4-12 (and a pick) performance against the worst (literally) FCS team.
I agree. In addition, he returned to practice only recently; it was only two weeks ago that Schiano said we have all three quarterbacks available.
Schiano played Mike Teel when the team was in the hunt for their first bowl game in decades. Ryan Hart, a quality QB, lost snaps to Teel who wasn't close to being ready. The team still qualified for the Insight Bowl. The following season Rutgers went on to have one of its best seasons in history and the rebuild was complete. Rutgers went on a run of having several seasons of winning games and qualifying for bowl games. There is a balance between playing for today and preparing for tomorrow.
If we stick exclusively with Vedral for the remainder of the season, we are going to be in big trouble in 2023. Rutgers will have a ton of experience and talent at every position except QB.
For the record, I think the lack of development falls on Gleeson. There is no reason why Simon and Wimsatt are not further along.
Schiano use to tell recruits they are playing for national championships and they believed. Now it seems like folks are content to play for any bowl game.
The only way we’d be sticking exclusively with Vedral the rest of the way would be if we’re in every game until the final snap.
I believe that it is imperative to get Wimsatt some meaningful game reps the balance of the season in preparation for next year. Like you mentioned, a balance must be struck to prepare the young, inexperienced backup when there is a likelihood he is the heir apparent for the upcoming season .
I am not saying sacrifice this season for the sake of development and agree practice goes a long way in the development of any player but I also believe until a QB gets enough meaningful game reps he will be a "deer in the headlights" and the game will not slow down for him.. RU needs to do all it can to allow Wimsatt to get past that stage this year in my opinion. I also believe they can do it and still win games.
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Didn't Wimsatt get meaningful game reps in our first three games? Wouldn't you agree that he didn't do well? Does it really make sense to play him so long as we have a realistic chance of a .500 or better season?
I say stick with Noah, but give Gavin some playing time to see how he plays in Nuzzio's system and if his play was hampered by Gleeson's offensive system .
If Wimsatt proves capable against Minnesota when he's in , his time should start 11/05 and see if he can handle running the O against top programs..
But I feel Verdal should be the starter until Gavin shows enough to know he's ready for prime time when he gets to play against Minny for a few consecutive series and that play will be meaningful time, not just garbage time after RU puts the game on ice.
If Wimsatt proves capable against Minnesota when he's in , his time should start 11/05 and see if he can handle running the O against top programs..
But I feel Verdal should be the starter until Gavin shows enough to know he's ready for prime time when he gets to play against Minny for a few consecutive series and that play will be meaningful time, not just garbage time after RU puts the game on ice.
Best games for Gavin:
Michigan State- #13 in B1G for passing yards/game allowed. Also up there in points/game. Only 2 INTs in 7 games.
Michigan is surprising low in INTs too--only 4 this season in 7 games, but they lead the B1G in sacks.
Maryland also give up quite a few passing yards/game, but they have 7 INTs.
Unfornatuely, I don't think Wimsatt is never going to get meaningful snaps this season.
Just give it up already.
We won't know what we have with him until he's thrown into the fire next season.
Even if we were to be eliminated from bowl contention - the reasoning for playing NV will be:
"It's not fair to the seniors on the team to give up on the rest of the year. NV doesn't deserve to be benched. He's a senior and captain. He still deserves to start. We need as many wins as possible this year - for recruiting. Need to focus on this year and not next year."
Just give it up already.
We won't know what we have with him until he's thrown into the fire next season.
Even if we were to be eliminated from bowl contention - the reasoning for playing NV will be:
"It's not fair to the seniors on the team to give up on the rest of the year. NV doesn't deserve to be benched. He's a senior and captain. He still deserves to start. We need as many wins as possible this year - for recruiting. Need to focus on this year and not next year."
Ryan Hart didn't deserve to sit either, but he did in favor of Mike Teel. That '05 team has as much, if not more, to play for since Rutgers was starving for a bowl game at that time. How come people don't recall that situation being similar to this year?
Schiano relied on a strong defense and a good running game when Teel was in the game. Boy, that sounds and looks familiar to this year's team. The passing game for Teel was set up off the run game. Perhaps that is what Rutgers should do for Wimsatt instead of random deep passes.
Admittedly I can't remember as well as I'd like now but I always thought Teel and Nova's INTs were more the result of overconfidence and throwing balls into tight windows they shouldn't have. Gavin's issue seemed to be hesitancy even with open receivers and he was delivering the ball too late.
What's your take?
Teel and Nova competed against older QB, so there was no fear of being benched for another young QB who could steal your spot. Wimsatt is looking over his shoulder at Simon, and Simon is looking over his at Wimsatt. The other part of this situation is coaching. It becomes clear that Gleeson has been asleep at the wheel. Even Nova experienced poor coaching early in his career. Once Fridge came along, Nova took off. Only Teel seems to be coached well at every stage of his Rutgers career.
I can’t see how the coaching staff caused 4-12 and a pick vs. Wagner. That’s like playing the scout squad.
We can’t be “mathematically” eliminated until the Maryland game. I think he would start that game if we lose out until then. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen.
Noah will get the lion's share of snaps (barring injury) until someone shows enough in practice to get PT in games and does a lot with those opportunities. I don't see that changing unless we are 4-7 going to Maryland, at which point I would start Vedral for a series or two as a final tip of the cap, then let Wimsatt play the rest of the game. There is NO WAY we will start Wimsatt over a healthy Vedral at Michigan if we beat Minnesota this week, unless the main reason we win it somehow is Gavin.
We have to start games with Vedral because he is low risk low/reward and the other qb's have not been developed. If we get down big we should remove Vedral and alternate series between the other two. If we get out of bowl contention Vedral should not see another snap the rest of the season. Simon looks the most like qb to me but with the int's he did have a bad game against Neb and you only get so many chances. I would like to see him get multiple complete series where he does not come in situationally on 3rd and 8, and with other healthy qb's call his number on occasion to keep defenses honest.
Great perspective as always, really wasn’t factoring Evan into this since everyone makes it out to be Noah vs Gavin.
What's your beef with Wimsatt? You go to great lengths to dismiss him. There is no mention of Simon's struggles or three years of below-average play from a grown man known as Vedral. Simon and Wimsatt have a reason for their struggles. It's called lack of experience. What is the excuse for Vedral?
Teel and Nova were absolutely TERRIBLE in their first year. Teel was lucky not to have 20 INT's. On a semi regular basis, they looked like they never played the position. They must not have been touched when they played QB in high school.
Simon or Wimsatt couldn't have done what Vedral did on Saturday? Instead we chose the QB with the weakest, by a wide margin, arm. The gameplay was so basic and he still almost had 2 INT's. If ES or GW can't be coached up (don't force the throw) and execute the gameplan we used against Indiana, they should be shown the door. There is no doubt that we have 10 posters that could have had the same game as Noah. Checking into a run play was pretty easy as Indiana didn't really look to confuse us their defensive looks. What you saw was what you got.
Why do we have to rely on the rollout with a 6th yr QB? I could live with it with Gavin. The staff let Evan sling it around against Iowa like he was going to the NFL next year. So bizarre. Yes, I understand gleeson as the OC for the Iowa game.
Simon or Wimsatt couldn't have done what Vedral did on Saturday? Instead we chose the QB with the weakest, by a wide margin, arm. The gameplay was so basic and he still almost had 2 INT's. If ES or GW can't be coached up (don't force the throw) and execute the gameplan we used against Indiana, they should be shown the door. There is no doubt that we have 10 posters that could have had the same game as Noah. Checking into a run play was pretty easy as Indiana didn't really look to confuse us their defensive looks. What you saw was what you got.
Why do we have to rely on the rollout with a 6th yr QB? I could live with it with Gavin. The staff let Evan sling it around against Iowa like he was going to the NFL next year. So bizarre. Yes, I understand gleeson as the OC for the Iowa game.
I have nothing against Wimsatt for the future. I’d love to see him grow and develop.
That doesn’t change the fact that the starting point from when we last saw him was a 4 for 12 game vs Wagner including a pick. When people say things like - “what makes you think he’s not ready yet?” - that performance is your answer. I’m not sure why anyone would think he “is” ready until such time that the coaches decide to play him based on much better performance in practice. We’re not at practice - what we saw from him before he got hurt in game situations was not good enough yet.
Evan on the other hand, I’ve personally seen enough of. I’m not expecting to see him much going forward barring further injuries.
I don’t think Vedral is “great” and I said as much in the thread Plum started claiming that. But unless one of the other guys beat him out at practice - he is currently our best option. I’m happy to agree with your excuse that the other guys are just less experienced. That’s fine - but for today Vedral still gives us the best chance to win.