JoMo: What I don't get

[o_HuntDawg]

Let me start by saying that I didn't agree with the hire and I didn't like the hire. That being said...

I don't get why people are complaining that he should change his system or change what it is he is doing to suit Fitz or what not. He was brought in here to build or build on a program, and build on it his way. He was not brought in here to run Mullen's system for a year or something similar to it.

Does everyone wish that the process would happen quicker and more smoothly... sure. But again what did you expect?? Contrary to some on the board, the Miss St football job was not a sought after job, it did not have good, proven, championship coaches lined up to take the job. Matter of fact the two coaches I heard the most from were Jeremy Pruitt and JoMo, both coordinator's neither with any major head coaching experience. So its not fair to expect a Saban-Dabo-or even Jimbo like transition.

My take: that will be very unpopular here, is that the expectations were way too high, and this is probably why Mullen left. Mullen was squeezing every drop of talent he could (and he's a dang good coach) and was consistantly winning 8-9 games a year. This wasn't good enough for most around here and there were some that wanted him gone.

Facts are state had a good defense coming back, and currently has one, but its FAR from ELITE that most on here think it is. It is good, a top tier SEC defense but not elite. If you take out the weak non-conference schedule. State in most categories is ranked 3rd or 4th in the SEC, and have yet to play either of the conferences top 2 offenses. They ranked like 105th in the country in turnovers too.

They have zero talent at WR and TE. Their offensive line is below average, and while everyone hangs their hats on the running game are either of the backs top 3 running backs in the conference or game changers?

In my opinion right now, even with Mullen, state would be 5-2 right now. They would have lost one of the 3 previous to LSU, and they would have lost to LSU. They will lose at Bama and if they don't mess up the rest of the year will be 8-4 or 9-3 (Mullen would have done the same), and it won't be good enough for the people around here.

Again I did not agree with the Moorhead hire, but by all accounts there wasn't anyone better than was after the job. The good news is, IMO, state will remain a 7-8-9 win football team, and will be that until it can catch another Mullen or someone better as a diamond in the rough type of hire moving forward.

Flame away, but those are might thoughts.

 

[Strike.sixpack]

Just going to reply to a couple of your points. Moorehead can still run his system and match the personnel better. He has plenty in his playbook, at least with in the rushing attack, very similar types of concepts that we were already running. With our known personnel, that should have been the base of our overall season game playbook this year. He didn’t have to run Mullen’s playbook to be successful and have a productive offense. It was already in his playbook. It took until Auburn to implement that and we saw how much better it was executed. Then After a 2 a week break, we don’t build off of that portion of the playbook? A lot of different run calls vs LSU. I thought that was a strange thing to change.

Every personnel group is confused on our passing right now. Either the install didn’t take like he thought (he stated we were grasping his playbook faster than any team he had, coach speak maybe but what he stated) or the speed of the reads has just frozen our offense in games. Confusion all round.

We will see where our defense ends this season but if it stops today, we would be elite. 15 points per game in a season is elite. That is consistently Top 5 nationally and in 2014 would have lead the nation.

 

[Dawgzilla]

Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but Mullen did not leave due to raised expectations. Mullen left for more money and the potential to recruit championship caliber players.

Mullen never saw this job as anything more than a stepping stone. Moorhead probably sees us that way, too, but he stumbled on that first step.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

I can agree with some of what you wrote Strike.

I actually think LSU did a good job of taking away what he did against Auburn. I think the style of attack actually surprised AU and most on here and that probably made it more effective than one might think. LSU was able to scheme against that and likely took some of that away from State.

I can also agree about the install... goes back to the QB in my opinion. Facts are Fitz wasn't recruited by anyone, probably b/c he wasn't a very good QB. Mullen's system made him what he is.. and Fitz having to learn the system, while being hurt, on the run, against SEC defenses, with a coach who had no clue what he's getting into, probably has a lot to do with the issues.

And we can agree to disagree about the Defense. In conference games, its not even at the top of the SEC let alone the country. State again played one of the worst non conference schedules in the country and that has a lot to do with those numbers. The defense doesn't force turnovers and heck they gave up 28 to Kentucky. It is a good D, a top tier sec D, but its not dominant, game changing, or elite.

 

[ShrubDog]

If you think Mullen would be 5-2 right now you need to check your head.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

He loses at LSU, state has one 1 time there in 10 years and that was with Dak.

and he lost against ole miss last year and has a history of losing a game here or there most thought he shouldn't.

Kentucky, Florida, Auburn was a tough stretch... I personally think he would have lost one of those as well.

You probably should take the maroon glasses off

 

[WutheringDawg]

While I agree with some of what you're saying - the offensive line returns four of five starters that gave up the fewest (or close to) sacks in the league last year. I've said that I think people were too confident in the fact that we would be replacing a senior LT with a guy who had four starts, but overall, offensive line isn't the issue.

Lack of talent at WR is a huge deal that we hand waved as well. "We have four 4* guys coming in, Nick's gonna feast." One dude is in Juco, one can't get past special team duties and another has been playing patty cake with the football on the 1 catchable ball he gets a week, and the newest great white hope looked completely lost in the few plays that the ball went his way.

I think that expectations were accurately optimistic when Mullen was going to be here in 2018, but when Moorhead came in instead of dampening slightly they got ratcheted up. Yeah some of that was because we bought into the coach speak rhetoric that he presented when arriving in Starkville, but that's his job - drum up excitement when you get there.

The defense is about as elite as it gets, and I don't think that turnovers are a good measuring stick because they can be equal parts luck and skill. In SEC play we're giving up 17.25 points per game, allowing 163 yards through the air, and 136 yards on the ground per game. And that's while being paired with the most anemic offense in the conference by a country mile. This defense is every bit as elite as anyone indicates.

I will beat this dead horse into the ground because I really think it is true - Mullen is just that much of a QB developing genius, Relf and Fitz have zero business running SEC offenses and would send a lot of careers to an early grave (Moorheads could be included), but Mullen made worked his magic. To say that Moorhead is not as good a QB developer as Mullen is probably true, but not many coaches in this country are. But what we won't see until there is a change at the position is how they compare when the QB isn't some sort of hyper-developmental experiment.

 

[patdog]

If you think Mullen would be 5-2 right now you need to check your head.

He has to say that like it's a fact to have any chance of making his argument. It's ridiculous. Mullen, or any other good coach, would likely be 6-1 or 7-0 right now. These players averaged 28 ppg in conference play last year. They didn't suddenly become worse by themselves.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Agree big time on Mullen. Mullen was a great fit, a perfect hire, and probably the best coach state could have possibly dreamed of. The fact people wanted him fired or gone was laughable. This job just doesn't attract big name coaching talent and it'll be hard to get someone like Mullen in here again.

and we can agree to disagree on the defense. I personally don't think any team that gives up 28 to Kentucky be considered elite. When you take out the non-conference, state is 3 or 4 in most defensive categories and hasn't played Alabama yet. When Bama puts up 40 plus (maybe 50) on them the numbers will change... and before everyone jumps down my throat... bama scored 31 on the road with hurts last year, and they also controlled both Simmons and sweat, and return their OLine.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Again most experts at State has an underdog both at LSU and at Alabama going into the season. Maybe people around here didn't think so, but the experts did.

Kentucky and Florida both are significantly better than they were last season. IMO a slip up in a 5 game stretch of Kentucky, Florida, Auburn, LSU and TxAM is very likely.

Disagree all you want, but the name an ELITE sec team in the past 10 years that had ZERO talent at WR, TE, and lacked a heisman type talent at RB.... I'll wait while you find one b/c there isn't any.

 

[thatsbaseball]

If you don't understand that Moorhead was expected to perform THIS YEAR by everyone from Keenum on down you might as well drop out of this conversation now. That (right or wrong ) is what was expected. His win/loss record this year is going to be at least 2 wins shy of what he was hired to do (and could have been done) with this team. Next year the expectations will be considerably lower but this year has justifiably left a lot of people with a lot of doubt.

 

[peewee.sixpack]

Moorehead and Getsy are WAY over their heads. Moorehead was brought in to win. There is no program in the country that tells a coach hey, we will give you 5-10 years to IMPLEMENT your system, get the players you want and then try to win (hell Vanderbilt doesn't allow it these days). Moorehead took a successful team that returned 18 starters and averaged 31 points per game last year. As of now he and Getsy have failed, and failed miserably. I had a very reputable inside source tell me that we do not have 1 play in the playbook under center. That's right, our offense doesn't have a QB SNEAK in the playbook. How ignorant is that. What amazes me more than anything is how many State fans are satisfied with being mediocre and sucktivity. I guess it is in our DNA and Ole Miss fans have beat it into our fans heads that hey, your MSU and you will never have a successful program and our fans are fine with that.

On the flip side I bet I know who isn't fine with that. Developers and small business owners in Starkville. A lot has been invested in the community and it is on the verge of collapsing as far RE and game day tourism. One weekend with 50K plus visitors brings in millions. Take that away and the community will suffer. I know I damn sure aint taking the trip up there to watch us throw up 3, 6 or 9 points for the next 3-5 years until he can get his players in place. Our program has taken a huge step backwards and it isn't due to talent, it is due to piss poor coaching. If we just lined up and ran the ball we beat, KY, FL and LSU. LSU's defensive strength is their secondary and Moorehead's game plan was to attack it with our offense's weakness. That my friends is poor coaching and a sign that this coach would rather lose his way than win any other way.

 

[Strike.sixpack]

I can agree with some of what you wrote Strike.

I actually think LSU did a good job of taking away what he did against Auburn. I think the style of attack actually surprised AU and most on here and that probably made it more effective than one might think. LSU was able to scheme against that and likely took some of that away from State.

I can also agree about the install... goes back to the QB in my opinion. Facts are Fitz wasn't recruited by anyone, probably b/c he wasn't a very good QB. Mullen's system made him what he is.. and Fitz having to learn the system, while being hurt, on the run, against SEC defenses, with a coach who had no clue what he's getting into, probably has a lot to do with the issues.

And we can agree to disagree about the Defense. In conference games, its not even at the top of the SEC let alone the country. State again played one of the worst non conference schedules in the country and that has a lot to do with those numbers. The defense doesn't force turnovers and heck they gave up 28 to Kentucky. It is a good D, a top tier sec D, but its not dominant, game changing, or elite.

LSU did a good job taking a way a simplistic plan that diverted from what we just ran the game prior. They did their part yes, I agree. It was a poor plan and poor adjustment in game by our coaches. And why would you change from what just worked the game prior? Bad game plan.

The install problems is not just with QB though. Every position group is having big issues. The OL has gotten a little better but they are still having numerous misalignments. The QB is confused but the whole offensive install has every group confused. Aeris probably has the best grasp of any one player, maybe one of the guards but the line has to work as one and it’s still a mess at times.

Giving up 28 to Kentucky with short fields from a turn over late and on downs late after we went 3 and out 5 times prior? Not to mention a short punt to the 48 yard line. Sorry but we gave 14 points to them and the offense set the defense up to fail for the other 2 scores. At 14-7 we got the interception at mid field and our offense ran 7 plays for -5 yards. We punt and defense holds for 4 plays and -3 yards and the offense turns it over at our own 36. Rest is history. They only had 301 yards of offense.

If that game is played straight with just an avg offense, we give up 14 points and our conference avg is now 13.75 per conference games. We also lead the nation in TD given up with 8, including all 4 of Kentucky’s. That’s playing at an elite level right now. If the offense continues it’s horrific play and/or the defensive players turn down their play if the season continues to tank, then yeah the numbers will climb and the end of the year may look like it is just a good defense. But to this point, it’s playing on an elite level

 

[peewee.sixpack]

If you don't understand that Moorhead was expected to perform THIS YEAR by everyone from Keenum on down you might as well drop out of this conversation now. That (right or wrong ) is what was expected. His win/loss record this year is going to be at least 2 wins shy of what he was hired to do (and could have been done) with this team. Next year the expectations will be considerably lower but this year has justifiably left a lot of people with a lot of doubt.

I agree, in what job does someone get hired to FAIL and it's ok, you will figure it out someday when all the pieces are in place. Never mind the boss gave you pieces to succeed.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

I can agree some Strike...

The install maybe an issue with all parties, but the QB is the head of the snake. If you cut the head off the rest of the body eventually dies. Our QB play is so bad its effecting the other parts of the game.

But I disagree totally with your assessment of the defense. You can't cherry pick the breaks you do and don't get. Those things even out over the course of the year. For example Auburn got a TD called back at the goal line and missed a wide open WR for a touchdown. They get either of those, they score 23 and not 9. So it all evens out over the course of a season.

and again I throw out the non conf games bc they are and were pathetic against one of the worst schedules you can put together. In conf games only State is 3 or 4th in the league in most cateogries. We can both cherry pick the stats either way to back up our argument and I am aware on that. I just think that Kentucky was able to do what they wanted to do most of the game, after the first quarter LSU pretty much did what they wanted to do all game, Auburn had more chances to score than they did. Give the D credit there, but to me an elite defense is one that dominates the opponent, creates havoc and turnovers, and state's just doesn't do this. Again its good, top tier SEC, but its not elite, the numbers will get worse when Alabama rolls in

 

[philduckworth]

Let me start by saying that I didn't agree with the hire and I didn't like the hire. That being said...

I don't get why people are complaining that he should change his system or change what it is he is doing to suit Fitz or what not. He was brought in here to build or build on a program, and build on it his way. He was not brought in here to run Mullen's system for a year or something similar to it.

Does everyone wish that the process would happen quicker and more smoothly... sure. But again what did you expect?? Contrary to some on the board, the Miss St football job was not a sought after job, it did not have good, proven, championship coaches lined up to take the job. Matter of fact the two coaches I heard the most from were Jeremy Pruitt and JoMo, both coordinator's neither with any major head coaching experience. So its not fair to expect a Saban-Dabo-or even Jimbo like transition.

My take: that will be very unpopular here, is that the expectations were way too high, and this is probably why Mullen left. Mullen was squeezing every drop of talent he could (and he's a dang good coach) and was consistantly winning 8-9 games a year. This wasn't good enough for most around here and there were some that wanted him gone.

Facts are state had a good defense coming back, and currently has one, but its FAR from ELITE that most on here think it is. It is good, a top tier SEC defense but not elite. If you take out the weak non-conference schedule. State in most categories is ranked 3rd or 4th in the SEC, and have yet to play either of the conferences top 2 offenses. They ranked like 105th in the country in turnovers too.

They have zero talent at WR and TE. Their offensive line is below average, and while everyone hangs their hats on the running game are either of the backs top 3 running backs in the conference or game changers?

In my opinion right now, even with Mullen, state would be 5-2 right now. They would have lost one of the 3 previous to LSU, and they would have lost to LSU. They will lose at Bama and if they don't mess up the rest of the year will be 8-4 or 9-3 (Mullen would have done the same), and it won't be good enough for the people around here.

Again I did not agree with the Moorhead hire, but by all accounts there wasn't anyone better than was after the job. The good news is, IMO, state will remain a 7-8-9 win football team, and will be that until it can catch another Mullen or someone better as a diamond in the rough type of hire moving forward.

Flame away, but those are might thoughts.

Too many bad takes in one post to reply to.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

And as I stated I think expectations were too high. I thought Mullen would go 9-3 with this team, sure 10-2 was possible but 8-4 was also possible as well. Losses to LSU and Alabama and another loss or two along the way. I think Moorhead will finish 8-4 or 7-5 this year. Sure a few games off the possible high of Mullen and 10 wins, but similar to what could have happened as well, and 1 game off what I personally thought state would finish.

Again state thought they were elite coming into the season. Go find one sec team the last 10 years that had zero playmakers at WR and TE... and didn't have a heisman type talent in the backfield. There isn't one... and state is in that very same boat this year. Very good (8-9 wins) but not elite.

If you don't understand that Moorhead was expected to perform THIS YEAR by everyone from Keenum on down you might as well drop out of this conversation now. That (right or wrong ) is what was expected. His win/loss record this year is going to be at least 2 wins shy of what he was hired to do (and could have been done) with this team. Next year the expectations will be considerably lower but this year has justifiably left a lot of people with a lot of doubt.

 

[patdog]

Pretty sure this is just someone who decided to create an account and troll the hell out of this board today.

 

[gymdawg.sixpack]

I stopped after you insinuated Hill wasnt a top3 rb in the sec. I hate to tell you, but Hill would be in the Heisman hunt if he played at about 10 other schools. That dude is a legit top3 rb in the COUNTRY

 

[Strike.sixpack]

I can agree some Strike...

The install maybe an issue with all parties, but the QB is the head of the snake. If you cut the head off the rest of the body eventually dies. Our QB play is so bad its effecting the other parts of the game.

But I disagree totally with your assessment of the defense. You can't cherry pick the breaks you do and don't get. Those things even out over the course of the year. For example Auburn got a TD called back at the goal line and missed a wide open WR for a touchdown. They get either of those, they score 23 and not 9. So it all evens out over the course of a season.

and again I throw out the non conf games bc they are and were pathetic against one of the worst schedules you can put together. In conf games only State is 3 or 4th in the league in most cateogries. We can both cherry pick the stats either way to back up our argument and I am aware on that. I just think that Kentucky was able to do what they wanted to do most of the game, after the first quarter LSU pretty much did what they wanted to do all game, Auburn had more chances to score than they did. Give the D credit there, but to me an elite defense is one that dominates the opponent, creates havoc and turnovers, and state's just doesn't do this. Again its good, top tier SEC, but its not elite, the numbers will get worse when Alabama rolls in

Fine, I agree to a degree about cherry picking but if you want to go deeper then that is what you do. We are 5th in the country in DFEI defense. That adjust for a lot of different things, including the offensive strength of the opponent. Top 5 is elite

 

[thatsbaseball]

At the risk of sounding like a Gene's pager I was about to post the same thing. Not sure this is a State guy.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Again strike we can agree to disagree... we can show stats that show both. In my opinion an elite defense can consistently stop what the other team wants to do, create havoc and turnovers. LSU the second half of the game did exactly what they wanted to do, so did Kentucky.

The numbers suggest that there are better teams in the conference than they are when playing conf foes. They also create zero turnovers.

and to the person that thinks Kylin Hill is heisman material... geez... he wasn't even 5 star recruit. If you had a draft of backs this season I'm sure there would be a gazllion different opinions, but I seriously doubt Hill would go in the top 3 and probably not the top 5

 

[o_HuntDawg]

BTW I am a state fan. All the way back to Jackie and the Michael Davis and Stephen Bowie Days. Fred Smoot and the JLD defenses

Just think the fan base is all out of wack based on unrealistic expectations.

I stated from the top I didn't like the hire.. but its not like we had top tier coaches lined up to take the job.. and if moorhead finishes 8-4, its really not as bad of a season that some think.

At the risk of sounding like a Gene's pager I was about to post the same thing. Not sure this is a State guy.

 

[Dawgzilla]

I think you are projecting a bit there. Or maybe whe just have a different definition of "expected".

Moorhead was not hired to win "x" number of games in 2018. He was hired to be our head coach for the next few years. Inherent in that job description is that he does the myriad of things required to run a successful football program and put a competitive product on the field. (and he has come up short in that regard, no doubt). I'm sure that everyone from Keenum on down was hopeful that he could utilize this roster to field a great team this year, but if anyone "expected" that to happen then they should not have been involved in the hiring process. Expecially Cohen, who has spent his entire life in college sports and knows that nothing can be taken for granted in this game.

It's like Stricklin said when discussing the hiring process at UF: you never know what you're going to get with a new head coach. It's not like buying a flat screen from Best Buy where you read the specs on the outside of the box and that's what you will find inside the box. There are so many intangibles involved that guy who looks like a great hire can be a total bust, and a guy who looks mediocre can turn out to be great.

Now, to be clear, I am not defending Moorhead's performance to this point. He has failed to live up to expectations in that the offense is just horrid, and the whole team has looked disorganized and undisciplined at times. I just don't think Keenum, Cohen or anyone else involved in the hiring process would be doing their jobs correctly if one of their job requirements was a coach who would win at least 10 games in 2018.

 

[thatsbaseball]

GTFO Our expectations for this team were generally not as high as the media's and everyone else'.

 

[Strike.sixpack]

Again strike we can agree to disagree... we can show stats that show both. In my opinion an elite defense can consistently stop what the other team wants to do, create havoc and turnovers. LSU the second half of the game did exactly what they wanted to do, so did Kentucky.

The numbers suggest that there are better teams in the conference than they are when playing conf foes. They also create zero turnovers.

and to the person that thinks Kylin Hill is heisman material... geez... he wasn't even 5 star recruit. If you had a draft of backs this season I'm sure there would be a gazllion different opinions, but I seriously doubt Hill would go in the top 3 and probably not the top 5

By the DFEI Bama, Clemson and Michigan are teams ahead of us in the ranking but I guess they are not elite either. It factors in conference play and your opponents so your point about conference only is moot. We are elite at this point. How we end up is a totally different discussion.

LSU scored how many TD’s the second half? Sorry if you are going to be completely blind to field position and time on the field because of an inept offense, your arguments are invalid. By your reasoning Bama doesn’t have an elite defense for the last decade

Turnovers is not accurate part. An elite defense can be high in turnovers but 2011 Bama was probably one of the best in history and was ranked 77th in turnovers. There are other examples as well and in reverse of average defenses who had high turnover rates.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

We can disagree then. I expected a 9-3 year. 8-4 was possible.

Right now 8-4 is still on the table as possible, 7-5 is too.

I think some around here expected 11-1. I read it on here, I heard it on radio shows. Simply saying had the expectation been 9-3 or 8-4, wouldn't be such the outrage.

GTFO Our expectations for this team were generally not as high as the media's and everyone else'.

 

[patdog]

I expected 9-3 as well, and I am outraged. I figured Bama would beat us, and we'd lose 2 out of UF, LSU, AU, A&M. What I never expected was to be so inept offensively in the losses. Yeah, 8-4 is still possible, but it's looking very unlikely unless there are some immediate big changes. 6-6 is a lot more likely than 8-4, and 5-7 isn't out of the question.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Again I'm basing those numbers on conference games my friend.. as I've stated all along.

You want to factor in the extremely poor conference schedule and dominating sam Houston state.. then go right ahead. Again we can make numbers do just about what we want to do these days if we dig deep enough. Just as you showed numbers about how great they are... when looking at conference numbers, which takes out the sam Houston states of the world, they rank 3rd or 4th in every defensive category. Behind teams like Kentucky... does Kentucky have an elite defense??

It is MY OPINION.. that an elite defense dominants and dictates what their opponents does and can't do. I don't think MSU's does that to this point. I also think elite defense don't give up 28 to Kentucky a one dimensional offense.

Again don't confuse what I am saying.. I think MSU's defense is very good. Top 3 in the conference, probably top 15 in the country. But they aren't elite, and looking at the offenses as they move forward, will likely only get worse numbers wise

By the DFEI Bama, Clemson and Michigan are teams ahead of us in the ranking but I guess they are not elite either. It factors in conference play and your opponents so your point about conference only is moot. We are elite at this point. How we end up is a totally different discussion.

LSU scored how many TD’s the second half? Sorry if you are going to be completely blind to field position and time on the field because of an inept offense, your arguments are invalid. By your reasoning Bama doesn’t have an elite defense for the last decade

Turnovers is not accurate part. An elite defense can be high in turnovers but 2011 Bama was probably one of the best in history and was ranked 77th in turnovers. There are other examples as well and in reverse of average defenses who had high turnover rates.

 

[FQDawg]

LSU's defensive strength is their secondary and Moorehead's game plan was to attack it with our offense's weakness. That my friends is poor coaching and a sign that this coach would rather lose his way than win any other way.

This is just demonstrably false.

We ran the ball 37 times and had 24 pass attempts total against LSU.

Eight of those pass attempts were on our final drive of the game, which started with 2:29 left in the game. That drive also had one rush attempt.

Which means that for the first 57+ minutes of the game, we had 36 rushes and only 16 pass attempts. So for the majority of the game, we basically ran 70% of the time.

Break it down further and you see that we threw 12 times in the fourth quarter. Half of our entire pass attempts for the entire game came in the fourth.

Which shows that Moorhead's game plan was most certainly not "attack LSU's secondary."

Moorhead's approach has certainly been questionable but let's at least get our facts right when discussing things.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Only difference in me and you, is I'm a little more positive on the outlook moving forward. If the kids/team quits on him, like a lot of people around here have b/c 11-1 is out the window. Then I agree I'll become outraged and 6-6 is very possible. This week will tell a lot.

I expected 9-3 as well, and I am outraged. I figured Bama would beat us, and we'd lose 2 out of UF, LSU, AU, A&M. What I never expected was to be so inept offensively in the losses. Yeah, 8-4 is still possible, but it's looking very unlikely unless there are some immediate big changes. 6-6 is a lot more likely than 8-4, and 5-7 isn't out of the question.

 

[Strike.sixpack]

Again I'm basing those numbers on conference games my friend.. as I've stated all along.

You want to factor in the extremely poor conference schedule and dominating sam Houston state.. then go right ahead. Again we can make numbers do just about what we want to do these days if we dig deep enough. Just as you showed numbers about how great they are... when looking at conference numbers, which takes out the sam Houston states of the world, they rank 3rd or 4th in every defensive category. Behind teams like Kentucky... does Kentucky have an elite defense??

It is MY OPINION.. that an elite defense dominants and dictates what their opponents does and can't do. I don't think MSU's does that to this point. I also think elite defense don't give up 28 to Kentucky a one dimensional offense.

Again don't confuse what I am saying.. I think MSU's defense is very good. Top 3 in the conference, probably top 15 in the country. But they aren't elite, and looking at the offenses as they move forward, will likely only get worse numbers wise

They don’t count FCS games so that point is moot.

They rate who you play and conference that teams offensive production in relation to their strength of schedule and it’s done for every team the same way. Your argument is moot on just conference only. By your argument Michigan Clemson and Bama are not elite defenses either and yet they are rated just above us.

Your opinion and what you think is fine, you have no FACTS to back it up. Bama has had many games where they gave up 28 or more points in games to inferior teams or one deminsional teams. If that’s your argument then they have never had an elite defense and that is unrealistic.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Top show even more:

State is currently in conf games games:

12th in the country in total def (1 in sec)
10 vs the pass (2 in sec)
42 vs the run (4 in sec)
14 in scoring D (3rd in sec)

In all Games, State only ranks in the top 5 in total D.

Again all the above marks the signs of a good defense... but not an Elite one

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Again Strike you want to pick one stat to analyze a defense thats fine. I'm pointing on stats too... stats you don't like.

Its like in baseball, there is WAR, VORP, and many other stats. Which one means the most.

When facing conference foes ONLY: state doesn't rank inside the top 10 in any defensive category (total, pass, run, or scoring)
When facing all teams on the schedule: state only ranks inside the top 5 in one (total and thats 5th)

Also if your looking at comparing to Alabama great Defense.. a quick look:
2011- never gave up 28
2012- gave it up one time to Manziel
2015- 1 time
2016- 1 time
2017- 0

State's ELITE defense will give up 28 at least 2 times this year.. likely 3

 

[Strike.sixpack]

Top show even more:

State is currently in conf games games:

12th in the country in total def (1 in sec)
10 vs the pass (2 in sec)
42 vs the run (4 in sec)
14 in scoring D (3rd in sec)

In all Games, State only ranks in the top 5 in total D.

Again all the above marks the signs of a good defense... but not an Elite one

Your not reading your signs correctly. Especially in relation to an offense who, as you want to concentrate on conference only games, is one of the worse historically in the league the last 10 years. Any correlation between the offense and defense you have to tried to block and that’s incorrect.

And again we are talking only to this point, after the year we will have the complete picture of where we are. Do I think we will finish the year as a good or even better defense than last year, which was very good? Good possibility if we don’t tank. If the team starts progressing and all phases start working together, it has a chance to STAY at an elite level. If we stay where we are offense and special teams, and the defense stay at these numbers then you are looking at an elite defense that played behind the eight ball all year long.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Nice debate.. we can agree to disagree.

I stand by you can make numbers point a lot of different ways. I think we are both showing how numbers can do that.

I stand by a dominant or elite defense doesn't give up 28 to Kentucky at all, and an elite defense doesn't let LSU control the entire game in the second half.

The only thing that even remotely shows State as having an elite defense is their numbers when pointed a certain direction... and with the offenses they'll face in the future, those numbers will very likely only get worse.

 

[RiverCityDawg]

Hunt, you keep saying you didn't like the hire and didn't agree with the hire. Just curious, who were guy hoping we would hire?

Also, if you don't think Kylin Hill is the type of player good enough to do what we want to do, I'm not sure you'll ever be satisfied with our talent level. Is he a heisman caliber guy? Probably not, but he's a future pro and as talented as any RB we could ever reasonably expect to have on our team. If we always had his level of talent at all positions, we'd be competing for an SEC championship year in and year out.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Again I didn't say Hill isn't a nice back. My point is and was very simple... that no top tier sec team, sec champ type team, has won with the lack of talent state has on the outside. Unless they had a heisman type talent in the backfield. Hill is not that.

I wanted to keep Mullen... at any and all cost... I realized that good quality coaches wouldn't come barking up the tree. As crazy as it sounds I wanted Lane Kiffin as a possibly diamond in the rough... but ya know

 

[ShrubDog]

He loses at LSU, state has one 1 time there in 10 years and that was with Dak.

and he lost against ole miss last year and has a history of losing a game here or there most thought he shouldn't.

Kentucky, Florida, Auburn was a tough stretch... I personally think he would have lost one of those as well.

You probably should take the maroon glasses off

So what you are saying is DM wouldn’t have been able to score 2 touchdowns against UF, UK or LSU. Two...2...1+1=2. Do that and we prob win.

You are blind as a bat.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Anyone criticizing the defense when the offense and special teams has put them in holes all season, is a damn fool. This defense is great. #12 KY had one scoring drive over 52 yards. #4 LSU was held to 1 TD and it was set up by a INT. #9 FL held to 1 TD on a trick play.
We have nothing but a defense. And they eventually wear down.