While discussing Duke and UK's recent struggles on ESPN Jeff Goodman stated that Alex Poythress and Marcus Lee haven't really improved while at UK. Wow, no kidding? Thought the snake oil salesman over there developed talent! Guess not!
Jeff Goodman
- Thread starter ShortCreek
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So what you're telling us is Jeff Goodman is the Captain Obvious character in those commercials on TV!
Good to know!
Good to know!
Not sure Poy or Lee would of gotten any better anywhere.
I really believe Poy just is not a gamer like other guys. In other words, the desire and drive to play this game just does not seem to be the same as players who really love playing the game.
Lee for me the jury is still out. He will never be a offensive power. If he could stay on the floor, in my opinion, his stats in blocks and rebounds even steals would be pretty good.
Not sure Cal develops talent or not. I believe if you cant get any better after playing against the best of the best every day for 4 years, thats on you. Not sure Cal should get all the credit when a player goes on to be great. But i do not think he should get all the blame when a guy after 4 years has had the opportunity to practice in one of the best facilities in the country, that was developed to give you every tool you need to maximize your talent, not to mention you have spared against future NBA All stars everyday for 4 years and you cant get better? I believe it then goes deeper then coaching.
I really believe Poy just is not a gamer like other guys. In other words, the desire and drive to play this game just does not seem to be the same as players who really love playing the game.
Lee for me the jury is still out. He will never be a offensive power. If he could stay on the floor, in my opinion, his stats in blocks and rebounds even steals would be pretty good.
Not sure Cal develops talent or not. I believe if you cant get any better after playing against the best of the best every day for 4 years, thats on you. Not sure Cal should get all the credit when a player goes on to be great. But i do not think he should get all the blame when a guy after 4 years has had the opportunity to practice in one of the best facilities in the country, that was developed to give you every tool you need to maximize your talent, not to mention you have spared against future NBA All stars everyday for 4 years and you cant get better? I believe it then goes deeper then coaching.
Poythress plays very hard, he's probably too intense. His D is pretty damn good and he's shooting nearly 60% from the floor for 10ppg & 7 rpg.
He is simply a good secondary player. He is a gamer just like "the other guys", he's just not an NBA 1st Rd talent like "the other guys"
Lee has rarely played until this season. Players get better in practice but with little to no meaningful playing time (I do remember the Mich E8 game) how's he going to develop getting splinters?
Lee could actually turn it around completely in March. His problems are between the ears. If he gets his confidence back, he can be a good defensive player and efficient enough offensively.
Both players would have gotten better at pretty much any program, but the revolving OAD door smacked them in the face.
I hope their season implodes completely, but don't think it's going to happen.
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Not every player that plays ball wether it's at UK, Louisville, Duke, Michigan State....will make it to the pros. Some due to talent or injury. Alex has his degree and is working on a masters. He will do alright without basketball.
Lee did not start playing basketball in high school until his junior year.
Everyone who follows basketball knows that plenty of top 100 players never pan out in collage and never get a whiff of the pros.
Some kids have that natural ability to play their sport but for everyone else from t-ball on to the pros its up to that individual to make the most of it. A coach can not force anything out of a kid they don't want to do. Not Cal or Pitino.
Lee did not start playing basketball in high school until his junior year.
Everyone who follows basketball knows that plenty of top 100 players never pan out in collage and never get a whiff of the pros.
Some kids have that natural ability to play their sport but for everyone else from t-ball on to the pros its up to that individual to make the most of it. A coach can not force anything out of a kid they don't want to do. Not Cal or Pitino.
It's only right if he gets credit when these 5 stars go pro after a year,he has to get blame when a 5 star stays 4 years
Alex Poythress, Wayne Blackshear....every program has them. I have a friend who is a UNC fan who says he pulled his hair out over Harrison Barnes. Some guys just don't have bulldog in their DNA. The coach can light a fire and it works for one game, but then it's right back to the old habits.
Did Wall and Davis develop at LPT? Or did they just arrive on top, play ball, and remain on top?
Does anyone really develop at LPT, or do they just put in their time?
'Elite program", my a$$...
Blackshear was a great player when he was in the game. Foul trouble hurt Wayne's legacy. He averaged 12 and 6 for 40 min played for a career.
Three of those guys were lower rated kids recruited by Billy Clyde. Cut differently than OAD kids.
But you can play that game in reverse with other examples... Poythress, Lee, Willis, the Twins, Wiltjer, Goodwin, Harrow... And we can go into the NBA and look at how many LPT kids have really been successful from Pitino Lite's teams. Let me know if you wanna go there.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Poythress was ranked #8 in his class and was #16 in the Jan 2013 mock draft. WCS was projected 8th also in that draft. Wayne was never projected in any mock draft until his senior year. He missed his entire freshman year because of injury.
EvilMD said: ↑
Alex Poythress, Wayne Blackshear....every program has them. I have a friend who is a UNC fan who says he pulled his hair out over Harrison Barnes. Some guys just don't have bulldog in their DNA. The coach can light a fire and it works for one game, but then it's right back to the old habits.
Alex Poythress, Wayne Blackshear....every program has them. I have a friend who is a UNC fan who says he pulled his hair out over Harrison Barnes. Some guys just don't have bulldog in their DNA. The coach can light a fire and it works for one game, but then it's right back to the old habits.
Facts always seem to get in the way of delusional ramblings. Weird stuff huh.
I would have to put both those guys in a very small group of high school seniors ready to jump right to the NBA after high school.A very small group covering a time frame going back 15 years or so in college basketball.The only other guy from UK I'd put in there during Cal's time would be Gilchrest.
Kind of reminds me of Juan Palacios...
Yea Zipp Miller, Liggins and Cauley we're all ranked high. Not as high as some. But not bottom feeders. Harrelson was the lowest of the 4, and after 2 years in the program went v from last man on the bench , to a guy getting rich playing in the NBA and over seas. The other 3 only played under G for a year. But all at the time we're considered top recruits in the country.
Not even sure we're your trying to go with comparing uk and ul on guys in the nba. Just in numbers alone uk is successful. And just by the large number of top recruits coming to uk of course you will have some that do not live up to the hype. But what school does?
As far as flops. Not sure what your measuring stick is. Wall, Cuz, Townes , Davis and even Bledsoe are future All Stars or All Stars already. You say do i want to go down that road? What road is that? Goodwin made a roster getting paid, Patterson, Jones, Miller, Liggins, Randle, Booker , Stein, wall, Noel, cuz, Davis, Bledsoe and Townes and I think 1 of the twins are all on rosters in the NBA. DJ, Lamb and one of the Twins with Harrelson and Orton are either in the D league or over seas getting paid looking to get another shot at a NBA roster. What in the world are you talking about? Do i think some should of stayed ? Yes. But who am i to stop a young man from making more money before he is 30 , then most do in a life time. And if you think guys playing over seas are not getting rich, then you know nothing about how this works.
I have no idea if any of these players got better under Cals coaching. But I know they got better. Watching them from day 1 until the last game you can see that. At the same time they should get better. The opportunity they get to work in an environment geared to push you to your maximum abilty is at uk. If you cant get better then thats on you. Just practicing against that type of talent everyday is a huge advantage. But of course not all will live up to that hype. Numbers a lone will not let that happen.
But when you can look in the NBA and see 15 to 20 guys on a roster with another 6 or guys in the D league wking for a spot or over seas making bank , we're is the comparison or negative? Not to mention 4 0r 5 of those guys All Stars or potential future All stars is not to shabby. Of course not all will be All stars or even starters on a roster. But they all got their. You sound like thats a failure.
Im not giving Cal credit for them getting their, but im not blaming him because they didnt live up to the hype of that year that was stuck on them. But those with an agenda like yourself , will say its a failure and disappointing. But i deal in facts and reality. You can't win them all, and you never know how someone will respond to pressure and adversity.
You have little or no proof that Pitino Lite recruits kids who get better under him. Most of the 5-star kids would get the same NBA consideration if they didn't have to spend a year at LPT. That's the point. Basketball players are at LPT largely because they have to spend a year in college.
Lite gets credit for recruiting good kids to LPT. Most U of L fans recognize that. But he doesn't get much or any credit for making them better or getting extraordinary on-the-court results with them. That stuff is LPT delusion.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Lite gets credit for recruiting good kids to LPT. Most U of L fans recognize that. But he doesn't get much or any credit for making them better or getting extraordinary on-the-court results with them. That stuff is LPT delusion.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Yes, and Devin Booker, Eric Bledsoe and Archie Goodwin weren't supposed to be lottery picks or first round picks but they were. One can make that argument both ways. Poythress and Blackshear, and you can throw Darius Miller, Derrick Hord and Richard Madison in that group if you want to, or Tony Kimbro, or Manuel Forrest, all these guys that showed signs of brilliance but simply couldn't light their own fires.
You guys had two superstars who were huge disappointments until their senior year...Darrell Griffith and Billy Thompson. There is no formula for predicting who will "get it" and when they will get it. You just hope that at some time in their four year window that they do.
Darrell Griffith 4 year scoring averages (no 3 point shot during this period), while never shooting below 50% from the field. Exactly when was he considered any kind of disappointment by anyone?
Freshman: 12.8
Sophomore: 18.6
Junior: 18.5
Senior: 22.9
I was a Louisville fan back then. He and Bobby Turner were supposed to get Louisville over the top (they had never won a tournament before at that point). I believe U of L won MAYBE three tournament games in his first three seasons. It took the McCrays to give U of L another dimension and Griff became a much more efficient player his senior year. He didn't just average 22.9, he averaged an efficient 22.9. Instead of looking at his scoring averages, look up U of L's records those four years.
You stated DARRELL GRIFFITH was a huge disappointment, not the Louisville team (who never lost any more than 8 games during his career). Again, he never shot below 50% for any season. He was efficient (and consistent) his entire career. There is no UofL fan. or any unbiased opinion anywhere, that considered Darrell Griffith any sort of disappointment at any point in his career. You won't get any support in that opinion anywhere but on your home board.
U of L had made the Final Four in 1972 and 1975. They then underachieved (by Denny Crum standards) from 1976 to 1979. Because of that, Griff had a lot of pressure on him his senior year. Especially when UK won a title in 1978. U of L hadn't won one yet and the fan base was getting impatient. They were tired of hearing "talk to us when you win one" from UK fans. Griffith improved all aspects of his game and was Player of the Year as a senior. Before then, the pressure on him had more to do with his ability to lead the team in March than his scoring average. He had never made it to the Elite Eight, and UK had Bowie, Minniefield and that class coming in his senior season, after winning their fifth title in 78. U of L fans were scared that if they couldn't win one with Griff, when would they?
In 1986 Billy Thompson was in a similar position. He was the number one recruit in the country out of Camden. U of L had made the Final Four his freshman year, but they lost in the Sweet 16 to UK his sophomore year and were an NIT team his junior year. In 1986 he finally became the player U of L fans were hoping for and the Cards beat North Carolina and Duke on the way to their second title.
The point I'm making here isn't that Griffith and Thompson sucked for three years. Just that they made a big leap their senior years and became the players U of L fans were hoping for from Day One.
The point you were trying to make is that Griffith was a huge disappointment. Your words, not mine. And the narrative you are also trying to float is that UofL fans were disappointed/scared because of some comparison to UK. Both points/narratives are completely false and clearly coming from a rival's perspective. That type of stuff won't fly here; keep it on your own board.
The typical LPT recruit arrives at LPT already developed. He only attends college a year because that's the NBA rule. He chooses LPT thinking he will be "showcased" there better than at another school, that his pricey stock will go even higher.
It's a system failure when an LPT kid has to return for a second year. Either the kid has regressed or the showcasing process hasn't worked out as planned. The kid's either developed faults or they haven't been masked.
At the player level, Pitino Lite has more responsibility than does Pitino. The latter guy is responsible only for ending the year with the best TEAM possible. Since LPT is a players-first program, it's Lite's job to make sure the PLAYERS look their best, and the championships are supposed to take care of themselves.
Whether Pitino or his U of L predecessors (Crum) develop players isn't the issue. Their mission is to develop the TEAM. As with LPT, other benefits are supposed to take care of themselves. LPT fans get confused about this stuff because their program works backward compared to others.
"Elite program", my a$$...
It's a system failure when an LPT kid has to return for a second year. Either the kid has regressed or the showcasing process hasn't worked out as planned. The kid's either developed faults or they haven't been masked.
At the player level, Pitino Lite has more responsibility than does Pitino. The latter guy is responsible only for ending the year with the best TEAM possible. Since LPT is a players-first program, it's Lite's job to make sure the PLAYERS look their best, and the championships are supposed to take care of themselves.
Whether Pitino or his U of L predecessors (Crum) develop players isn't the issue. Their mission is to develop the TEAM. As with LPT, other benefits are supposed to take care of themselves. LPT fans get confused about this stuff because their program works backward compared to others.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Kentucky fans ragged on Dean Smith for not doing more with all of the talent he had, what's the difference? Calipari has surpassed Smith in the amount of burger boys, in fewer years also, why aren't you guys as critical of Cal as you were Dean Smith?
This is all fine to obsess with UK. What would be good to see is the same enthusiasm, efficiency and momentum that we played with against Florida state, if we meet UK in the tournament. Dittos for our regular season game against them next year, especially at home.
Obviously unique people determine their unique outcomes. You can look at numerous psychological studies to isolate environment from background, upbringing, and personal drive. For every John Wall there will be a Poythress. People with the best situations, training, opportunity and advantages often become failures. People from horrible backgrounds often become successful.
I find it interesting that social justice warriors always disregard the fact of individual responsibility. Its never the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. If your life sucks, change it. Today.
Calipari has no more effect on developing people than I do. All you can do is set a good example and support the individuals around you. Pitino, Obama, Mother Teresa-no difference. Your personal situation isn't anyones fault but your own.
I find it interesting that social justice warriors always disregard the fact of individual responsibility. Its never the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. If your life sucks, change it. Today.
Calipari has no more effect on developing people than I do. All you can do is set a good example and support the individuals around you. Pitino, Obama, Mother Teresa-no difference. Your personal situation isn't anyones fault but your own.
It is really is as simple as 'how you use your free will' in making the decision on how you choose to respond and with what attitude.
Life is all about 'choices'.......and many, many Americans and people around the world do not want to accept or see that they are responsible for their choices/actions.....and that actions have consequences, good and bad. I just pray for better days in the future.
I honestly couldn't agree more. It's just pure truth. A great man of vision once said that people should be judged by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin. It all fits together IMO. Choices, good and bad are chosen based on the content of ones character regardless of race, religion or belief. It's ALL about the content of ones character IMO. It always has been.
Zipp, this is not a binary system. There are more than two options.
It's possible some of these kids are overrated coming out of HS. So much so they can't live up to the hype. Perhaps they are overrated based on competition or based on early maturity or based on potential. For whatever reason, it happens. That is one of the reasons why the NBA wants the 1 year separation... because they were betting burned by over hyped HS kids.
To me, the Harrison twins are a great example. Sure they were 5* recruits, but they lacked maturity and their best skill was being bigger and faster that most of their competition. Physical dominance will only get you so far, which is why I think they hit a wall.
Then there are kids who truly love the College experience and choose to return for another year, even if they have the chance to go pro immediately. Not common, but it does happen.
We all want to see these guys reach the highest level of the basketball world. To us that defines them. Failure is an opinion i guess. When its all said and done the young men some have mentioned as being disappointments on the court have been and will be very successful off. Poy may not ever even play in the nba , and for some reason i think he would be ok with that. Of course the quick pay day we all would love. But Poy has put himself off the court in pretty good position. I am happy for him for that.
And of course guys get better while at UK .the comment made they just come in and do their year then move on is ridiculous. Davis, Wall, Cousins all benefited from what UK offered them while here. One thing i can say about Cals program, most players develop their skills as the year goes on. Players like Rose and Evans got off to slow starts. Evans was being considered a bust. Cal. Moves him to PG the kid becomes a lottery pick. Rose was struggling trying to be a pass first point. Cal made him think score he becomes number 1 over all pick.
Cal may not be the best x and o guy. But he does put top talent in the right position to be successful. In my opinion it is a part of coaching to be able to recognize a guys position and then convince this top pick anyway to play that position. A lot of this top talent come in playing against inferior talent. Have a lot of bad habits. Cal has shown the coaching ability to get these guys to focus in on what makes them great and benefits the team. Not a easy thing to do with a kid who has basically done what ever he has wanted to do knowing he will be in the nba regardless. To say thats not coaching is just someone blinded with an agenda.
And of course guys get better while at UK .the comment made they just come in and do their year then move on is ridiculous. Davis, Wall, Cousins all benefited from what UK offered them while here. One thing i can say about Cals program, most players develop their skills as the year goes on. Players like Rose and Evans got off to slow starts. Evans was being considered a bust. Cal. Moves him to PG the kid becomes a lottery pick. Rose was struggling trying to be a pass first point. Cal made him think score he becomes number 1 over all pick.
Cal may not be the best x and o guy. But he does put top talent in the right position to be successful. In my opinion it is a part of coaching to be able to recognize a guys position and then convince this top pick anyway to play that position. A lot of this top talent come in playing against inferior talent. Have a lot of bad habits. Cal has shown the coaching ability to get these guys to focus in on what makes them great and benefits the team. Not a easy thing to do with a kid who has basically done what ever he has wanted to do knowing he will be in the nba regardless. To say thats not coaching is just someone blinded with an agenda.
As long as these young men representing my state are good people on and off the court , they will have my support. UL and UK has produced some really good young men over the years. Im still a huge Sosa guy. Just loved that young mans heart and disposition. When its all said and done . Thats really all that matters. Any jerk who is crazy talented on the floor can get rich. Its what they do as a person after they get their that really matters.
Your latter example--the kid who likes college--is not the "typical" LPT recruit, as I put it. That would describe an exception to their process.
Your first example is one I covered... IMO it's Pitino Lite's job to showcase his kids. Part of the process is presenting them in the best possible light. For example, he shouldn't be playing a kid out of position. It's his job to be sure the kid's stock remains high or keeps rising. If the kid is overrated, that's still no excuse. He's about the players first.
I don't know the kid that well, but Skal shouldn't be playing center if he's not playing that position in the NBA. He shouldn't be trying to body up against defenders if he doesn't like contact. Lite's supposed to just have the kid for a year which doesn't give him much time to change Skal's game. And he's failed if Skal looks overrated and his NBA stock is falling.
That's your coach and your system if you're an LPT fan. Own it.
"Elite program", my a$$...
Own what? We have a program just b the numbers has helped young men get to the next level. Zipp your so blinded by hate that you cant see these kids coming to UK does better their chances of getting to the next level. As much as you want to believe kids play because they want whats best for the school is just wrong. Top ranked kids want to get to the NBA and paid period.
I will own the fact that my school brings in nba ready talent and for the most part they will be here until the next level is interested in them.
I will own the fact that my school brings in nba ready talent and for the most part they will be here until the next level is interested in them.
A lot of "journalists" like to kick UK when they are down. Pretty easy to do it then. It's January. The same fools criticizing them now in their blogs will be slobbering on them in March.
Except for the"blinded by hate" psycho-rant, I don't think we're in disagreement. "Top ranked kids" go to LPT and mostly don't go to U of L. It's why they're coached differently. The LPT kid has to be fed playing time and kept happy so he makes that jump in a year. Otherwise, word gets out that LPT ain't the OAD school it's supposed to be, and your recruiting would dry up. I don't know that Pitino Lite has enough coaching knowledge to warrant a second year anyway--he's taught you what he knows in a year.
Most U of L kids are OK with the longer road. But the occasional U of L kid may come in delusional. If he's not willing to be broken down and sent thru boot camp, he probably transfers. It's not an easy option if you're not willing to work hard.
Any U of L kid coming in thinking the road is paved like it is at LPT is mistaken. And he adapts or transfers. We have many years of watching Pitino work with these guys to understand that.
"Elite program", my a$$...
I actually see a shift in Calipari's recruiting results, even if by accident. Kids like Ulis, Lee, Poythress are sticking around. Willis has actually improved and getting more playing time than I ever thought he would. It sure looks like the all world Lassierbe(sp?) kid isn't going to go anywhere for at least another year, and same can be said for Briscoe. Is Calipari changing his approach to recruiting or are the recruits not living up to their hype?
If Calipari is unable to continue his carousel revolving door, his reputation of putting kids in the NBA quickly will fade and then he'll be forced to coach more than he wants to. Can he handle it? I'm not sure he wants to.
If Calipari is unable to continue his carousel revolving door, his reputation of putting kids in the NBA quickly will fade and then he'll be forced to coach more than he wants to. Can he handle it? I'm not sure he wants to.