Jack Givens and James Lee

[uk78_rivals88018]

How is it that two of the best players at Kentucky both were from Lexington and now the entire State can't produce any players really good enough to be at that level? I know I will here Hawkins and Willis. But, until they prove themselves as outstanding consistently on the court you can't really include them. I also know that Lee and Givens were 4 year players and that does have something to do with it, but they were pretty good as Freshman. Was it just pure luck?

 

[Kats23]

But honestly, when you think of it, when was the last time The state produced at a high level year in and year out outside of the last 30 years. You named 2 but they really are the exceptions to the rules. Sure you have a Darius Miller, Rajon Rondo and others but the state as a whole is poor and has been poor in high school basketball for some time.

 

[akaukswoosh]

No consistent top talent in Kentucky for years but ultimately all of the elite universities have to recruit nationally anyway.

 

[Mike-D]

Talent level across the state is pretty atrocious to say the least.

 

[anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y]

Wish we had Indiana-like High School talent. Like 'em or not, that state produces some pretty damn good basketball players.

 

[Mike-D]

Wish we had Indiana-like High School talent. Like 'em or not, that state produces some pretty damn good basketball players.

And they have nothing to show for it.

 

[ORCAT]

And they have nothing to show for it.

Our state lacks talented basketball players, their state lacks talented coaches (IU, anyway).

 

[jwheat]

D'Angelo Russell

 

[Calsarmy]

I have been to every kind of sporting event in the last 50 years. Have always been able to buy a ticket at the window or thru a contact or outside on the sidewalk. Only one game in my life I couldn't buy that ticket. It was the 1974 KY High School State Tourney game in Louisville Freedom Hall. Lex Bryan Station (Jack Givens) vs. Henry Clay (James Lee). I worked for 2 hours to buy a ticket on the sidewalk and there were absolutely none to be had. There used to be some tremendous HS basketball in KY. The Seneca team of Unseld, Redd and Cosby in 63. Or the Shelby Co team of 66 with Mike Casey. Those were the days.

 

[The_Godfather_rivals]

The 1980s were still very productive as well for the state when you remember guys like Dirk Minnifield, Charles Hurt, Melvin Turpin, Dicky Beal, Winston Bennett and Rex Chapman. However, the state continued to produce good high division 1 talent for much of the 1990s (Hanson, Farmer, Feldhaus, Pelphrey, Epps, Anderson, Dwayne Morton, Jason Osbourne (several other UofL players).

The late 1990s is when it turned from simply lacking elite talent to not having much of ANYTHING produced from the state that was worthy of high division 1 consideration.

I have no real idea as to why this happened either. Many discuss the rise of football in the state, but I just don't believe that accounts for the outright disappearance of elite basketball players in the prep ranks. It's baffling.

 

[KYCAT78]

I honestly believe the decline is due to the kids having too many distractions. Phones, video games, mobility. When I was a kid all we had to do was play outside mostly sports against each other. Many kids today will not even try out if they think they will have to sit the bench.

 

[Wildcat Country_rivals83997]

Never discount the effect of school consolidation. Big/Mega schools eliminate budding talent before it develops - sometimes kids who develop early don't keep advancing so they are cut/discouraged from limited basketball rosters and they go to football which has started to produce major national prospects. High school basketball is in decline and nothing appears to be poised to turn it around, IMO.

 

[jameslee32]

The Hawks have this kid named Shelvin Mack that is pretty good. He helped Team USA to a gold medal in the U19 FIBA championship. His teams went to back-to-back Final Fours and this years Eastern Conference Finals.

 

[Phantom]

Never discount the effect of school consolidation. Big/Mega schools eliminate budding talent before it develops - sometimes kids who develop early don't keep advancing so they are cut/discouraged from limited basketball rosters and they go to football which has started to produce major national prospects. High school basketball is in decline and nothing appears to be poised to turn it around, IMO.

Agreed.

 

[stevesorg]

Kenny Higgs came out of Owensboro the same year. Word was he wanted to go to UK but Givens and Lee didn't want to play with him........who knows.
He did pretty well at LSU.

 

[jimlowe7]

The best athletes in KY now seem to play football and baseball...it's been that way the last 15-20 years...plus a lot of kids who COULD play sports have either died or gone to prison from drugs, gangs, etc. or even dropped out of school to work (poor urban schools have contributed IMHO).

 

[UKvisitor_rivals101449]

Just some stats on Kentucky born college BB players from 1978 can be found here.
summary:

Darrell Griffith (Dr. Dunkenstein) Draft: Utah Jazz, 1st round (2nd pick, 2nd overall), 1980 NBA Draft

Bubba Wells Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (6th pick, 34th overall), 1997 NBA Draft

Vince Taylor Draft: New York Knicks, 2nd round (11th pick, 34th overall), 1982 NBA Draft

Alvin Sims NBA Debut: April 28, 1999

Rick Wilson Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (3rd pick, 25th overall), 1978 NBA Draft.

Greg Buckner Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (24th pick, 53rd overall), 1998 NBA Draft

Chris Whitney Draft: San Antonio Spurs, 2nd round (20th pick, 47th overall), 1993 NBA Draft

Derek Anderson Draft: Cleveland Cavaliers, 1st round (13th pick, 13th overall), 1997 NBA Draft
DeJuan Wheat Draft: Los Angeles Lakers, 2nd round (23rd pick, 51st overall), 1997 NBA Draft
Nolan Smith Draft: Portland Trail Blazers, 1st round (21st pick, 21st overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Donta Smith Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (5th pick, 34th overall), 2004 NBA Draft
Allan Houston Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (18th pick, 45th overall), 1994 NBA Draft
Bob Miller Draft: Phoenix Suns, 4th round (19th pick, 85th overall), 1978 NBA Draft
Frank Kornet Draft: Milwaukee Bucks, 2nd round (3rd pick, 30th overall), 1989 NBA Draft
Tony Jackson Draft: Los Angeles Lakers, 4th round (18th pick, 87th overall), 1980 NBA Draft
Jack Givens (Goose) Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (16th pick, 16th overall), 1978 NBA Draft
Dirk Minniefield Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (9th pick, 33rd overall), 1983 NBA Draft
Darius Miller Draft: New Orleans Hornets, 2nd round (16th pick, 46th overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Rudy Macklin Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 3rd round (6th pick, 52nd overall), 1981
Kenny Higgs NBA Debut: October 13, 1978
Winston Bennett Draft: Cleveland Cavaliers, 3rd round (14th pick, 64th overall), 1988 NBA Draft
Steve Bardo Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (14th pick, 41st overall), 1990 NBA Draft
Shelvin Mack Draft: Washington Wizards, 2nd round (4th pick, 34th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Jerry Eaves Draft: Utah Jazz, 3rd round (9th pick, 55th overall), 1982 NBA Draft
Melvin Harrison Turpin (Mel, Dinner Bell) Draft: Washington Bullets, 1st round (6th pick, 6th overall), 1984 NBA Draft
Scott Padgett Draft: Utah Jazz, 1st round (28th pick, 28th overall), 1999 NBA Draft
Rajon Rondo Draft: Phoenix Suns, 1st round (21st pick, 21st overall), 2006 NBA Draft

All Kentucky sons.

 

[buster3.0]

The 1980s were still very productive as well for the state when you remember guys like Dirk Minnifield, Charles Hurt, Melvin Turpin, Dicky Beal, Winston Bennett and Rex Chapman. However, the state continued to produce good high division 1 talent for much of the 1990s (Hanson, Farmer, Feldhaus, Pelphrey, Epps, Anderson, Dwayne Morton, Jason Osbourne (several other UofL players).

The late 1990s is when it turned from simply lacking elite talent to not having much of ANYTHING produced from the state that was worthy of high division 1 consideration

I have no real idea as to why this happened either. Many discuss the rise of football in the state, but I just don't believe that accounts for the outright disappearance of elite basketball players in the prep ranks. It's baffling.

Don't forget about Tony Kimbro, Herbert Crook, Felton Spencer, and Kieth Williams who played for UL. The city of Louisville used to produce a fair amount of prospects, which mainly benefited UL. Don't forget about Winston Bennett.

 

[Poetax]

Kenny Higgs came out of Owensboro the same year. Word was he wanted to go to UK but Givens and Lee didn't want to play with him........who knows.
He did pretty well at LSU.

Not saying you didn't hear it but I doubt that it came down that way.

 

[trinity45_rivals378029]

I honestly believe the decline is due to the kids having too many distractions. Phones, video games, mobility. When I was a kid all we had to do was play outside mostly sports against each other. Many kids today will not even try out if they think they will have to sit the bench.

I agree with the distraction part, I coached middle school ball from 79 thru 2001 and the difference in their ability from the early years to the late was great. Kids do not play as much ball. But You must also look at the number of schools. I remember when Muhlenberg co. had 7 schools and they packed the gym every night. Now there is just on school. Schools consolidated thus less slots for kids to make the team in each county.

 

[docholiday51]

Consolidation is one issue that hurts basketball and if a kid is really good he leaves the state to go to one of these basketball factories

Here in Barren county in 1965 we had a team(Temple Hill) with a 6"6" and a 6'10" kid,it is now 50 years later and we are still waiting for the next 6'8" or bigger kid to come along at either Glasgow or Barren Co.

 

[UpstateNYCat]

Born and raised in Lexington, HS BB was a blast back in the early to mid 70s in Lexington, especially when Silk and Steel squared off against each other, TC had a pretty good squad with Fucci. Went to Morton JHS one year where Dirk M. attended, he was fun to watch back then. I remember the gyms being packed during HS games. Not sure if that's the case anymore since I haven't been to a HS game since Jr. played, but that was in Texas.

 

[BoulderCat_rivals187983]

I totally agree with those of you who've pointed out consolidation as a factor. Eliminates many before they have a chance to develop as a player as well as their passion for it. Makes it much easier to fall for the many other distractions out there these days. So they becomes stars in the latest basketball video game.

 

[railroadkat_1]

Just some stats on Kentucky born college BB players from 1978 can be found here.
summary:

Darrell Griffith (Dr. Dunkenstein) Draft: Utah Jazz, 1st round (2nd pick, 2nd overall), 1980 NBA Draft

Bubba Wells Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (6th pick, 34th overall), 1997 NBA Draft

Vince Taylor Draft: New York Knicks, 2nd round (11th pick, 34th overall), 1982 NBA Draft

Alvin Sims NBA Debut: April 28, 1999

Rick Wilson Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (3rd pick, 25th overall), 1978 NBA Draft.

Greg Buckner Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (24th pick, 53rd overall), 1998 NBA Draft

Chris Whitney Draft: San Antonio Spurs, 2nd round (20th pick, 47th overall), 1993 NBA Draft

Derek Anderson Draft: Cleveland Cavaliers, 1st round (13th pick, 13th overall), 1997 NBA Draft
DeJuan Wheat Draft: Los Angeles Lakers, 2nd round (23rd pick, 51st overall), 1997 NBA Draft
Nolan Smith Draft: Portland Trail Blazers, 1st round (21st pick, 21st overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Donta Smith Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (5th pick, 34th overall), 2004 NBA Draft
Allan Houston Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (18th pick, 45th overall), 1994 NBA Draft
Bob Miller Draft: Phoenix Suns, 4th round (19th pick, 85th overall), 1978 NBA Draft
Frank Kornet Draft: Milwaukee Bucks, 2nd round (3rd pick, 30th overall), 1989 NBA Draft
Tony Jackson Draft: Los Angeles Lakers, 4th round (18th pick, 87th overall), 1980 NBA Draft
Jack Givens (Goose) Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (16th pick, 16th overall), 1978 NBA Draft
Dirk Minniefield Draft: Dallas Mavericks, 2nd round (9th pick, 33rd overall), 1983 NBA Draft
Darius Miller Draft: New Orleans Hornets, 2nd round (16th pick, 46th overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Rudy Macklin Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 3rd round (6th pick, 52nd overall), 1981
Kenny Higgs NBA Debut: October 13, 1978
Winston Bennett Draft: Cleveland Cavaliers, 3rd round (14th pick, 64th overall), 1988 NBA Draft
Steve Bardo Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 2nd round (14th pick, 41st overall), 1990 NBA Draft
Shelvin Mack Draft: Washington Wizards, 2nd round (4th pick, 34th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Jerry Eaves Draft: Utah Jazz, 3rd round (9th pick, 55th overall), 1982 NBA Draft
Melvin Harrison Turpin (Mel, Dinner Bell) Draft: Washington Bullets, 1st round (6th pick, 6th overall), 1984 NBA Draft
Scott Padgett Draft: Utah Jazz, 1st round (28th pick, 28th overall), 1999 NBA Draft
Rajon Rondo Draft: Phoenix Suns, 1st round (21st pick, 21st overall), 2006 NBA Draft

All Kentucky sons.

visitor good list! What ever happened to Freddie Cowan?

 

[bigbluetrue]

I watched Lee and Givens lead a Kentucky all-star team to an exhibition win over the Soviet Union at Memorial Coliseum. It was a great game that was highlighted by Lee backing down a much bigger Soviet player who was getting a little too rough against some of our players. Lee was a man who nobody wanted to mess with. The basketball talent in the state that year....and especially in Lexington was off the charts.

 

[TopCatCal]

What makes this even more of a head scratcher is compared to the state of Mississippi which has something like 1.3 million fewer people than Kentucky. Since 1987 KY. has produced only 5 McDonalds All-Americans, Mississippi has had 13 McDonalds All-Americans.

 

[Saguaro Cat]

Texas allows the sale of iPhones and has consolidated mega schools.

What I don't think Kentucky has is the sports industry. AAU and camps and select teams and academies and city leagues and YMCA leagues and school teams and facilities and individual instruction and the quality of instruction at all age levels.

In Texas, there's no concern that a kid would get discouraged they might not play and quit the sport because a school is too big. Hell, that would be considered elimination of the weak. Instead, they identify talent quickly and put it with other talent to compete against other talent. The kids are given goals early. They (and parents) know that twenty kids will get a college scholarship from their high school. He's not told glory stories about a guy who started at Louisville twenty years ago. Instead, it's about a guy in the pros right now.

 

[jameslee32]

Great post! Kids need to be challenged. Many of us parents and coaches have a lot to learn and just need a plan.