To say the drug "at best does nothing" is a false statement and simply not true. See my previous post further up the page.
Informative post from Facebook.
- Thread starter SyonaraStanz
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To say the drug "at best does nothing" is a false statement and simply not true. See my previous post further up the page.
You can fight the "I dont care about the CDC's recommendations, I ain't wearing a mask till I see the data" war if you want.
I simply pointed out that Fauci really pissed in the "hydroxy-bros" Cheerios last week.
I simply pointed out that Fauci really pissed in the "hydroxy-bros" Cheerios last week.
Look up Placebo Effect.
That's why you have to have double blind study. I can give you water to drink and it I tell you it will cure you, it will work up to 50% of the time. https://www.health.harvard.edu/ment...ers discovered that the,act of taking a pill.
Hard to make a mask study double blind since you can feel a mask and the researcher can see it on you, but there are plenty of studies that show mask wearing helps reduce the transmission rate for aerosol diseases
Like this one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662657/
For Malaria, sure.
For Covid, I'd ask what he thinks of the NEJM study saying it puts people on a ventilator earlier and longer.
In the thread last week you said you were from a small town and knew at least 10 people who have died from it. That was almost more than everyone else in the thread combined. Maybe you are the root cause. Or maybe, you continue to be full of crap. Or both.
So you are saying that believing you will improve actually helps? What a novel idea, but by all means, let’s keep preaching this thing is going to end western civilization (directed and media and doom and gloomers, not your comment).
And what if he said his personal experiences with the drug (which nearly all doctors have by now one way or the other) have been good ....thus his recommendation ?
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I cannot completely disprove his experience, but there is a lot wrong here. He says he plans to publish this data, but it doesn't seem to me that he has randomized any patients or done the many other things you need to do to solidify scientific evidence. Its not surprising to me that most of the patient's he is treating as an outpatient are not ending up hospitalized because most people that do poorly are usually going to be diagnosed in the ER upon admission to the hospital.
Additionally, he has some random diagram of the microscopic pathology of the disease. I'm not sure how he got to that conclusion. Is he doing lab bench work as well to validate his "stage" diagram? That looks like complete hypothesis to me, not to mention this virus affects a lot more than just the lung tissue.
You get a lot of rope to practice medicine in a place like Greenville where the medical care is sparse, hence an oncologist taking on first call for COVID-19 cases. I'm not discounting his commitment and drive to help the community, but this is not solid evidence yet. I hope he is able to publish some useful data out of this experience, but until then his conviction has some degree of sensationalism.
Additionally, he has some random diagram of the microscopic pathology of the disease. I'm not sure how he got to that conclusion. Is he doing lab bench work as well to validate his "stage" diagram? That looks like complete hypothesis to me, not to mention this virus affects a lot more than just the lung tissue.
You get a lot of rope to practice medicine in a place like Greenville where the medical care is sparse, hence an oncologist taking on first call for COVID-19 cases. I'm not discounting his commitment and drive to help the community, but this is not solid evidence yet. I hope he is able to publish some useful data out of this experience, but until then his conviction has some degree of sensationalism.
Well, it sounds science-y, but it isn't informative. There are no references to data for his patients, no citations of the studies he is referencing, only someone saying "hey I'm a doctor, trust what I'm saying despite mounting evidence to the contrary." Finishing medical school and practicing medicine doesn't make you right about everything.
We have medicine that is somewhat effective. Why are people so hung up on this one?
Last I heard, current treatment is Decadron, and a corticosteroid (dexamethazone, if on Oxygen) .
The Z-pack is to kill anything else and make sure your body is focused on COVID.
Oh and there is a link https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/whats-new/
By that rational, we should pass it out to everyone,and by it I mean placebo pills.
The Facebook doctor has no idea if HCQ stops corona in Stages 1 and 2 (what even are stages 1 and 2?). Anyone that is saying they know that any of these drugs for sure work, is not telling the truth. HCQ works in the lab, but it's failed before to work in humans.
If it was today, I'd find another doctor.
3 weeks ago, I would have thought differently.
I want a doctor to trust the research and not his "personal experience". See no one person can get enough "personal experience" to cover everything. He has to learn form what others have done. I'm sure the Doctor doesn't have his own names for things.
If your doctor told you in his personal experience, bloodletting and leeches cured your headache, would you do that?
You sure about that?
Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin plus zinc vs hydroxychloroquine andazithromycin alone: outcomes in hospitalized COVID-19 patients (May 2020)
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...036v1.full.pdf
"The main finding of this study is that after adjusting for the timing of zinc therapy, wefound that the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin wasfound to associate with a decrease in mortality or transition to hospice among patientswho did not require ICU level of care, but this association was not significant in patientswho were treated in the ICU... As such, zinc may have a role inpreventing the virus from progressing to severe disease, but once the aberrantproduction of systemic immune mediators is initiated, known as the cytokine storm, theaddition of zinc may no longer be effective [17]. Our findings suggest a potentialtherapeutic synergistic mechanism of zinc sulfate with hydroxychloroquine, if used earlyon in presentation with COVID-19. However, our findings do not suggest a prophylacticbenefit of zinc sulfate in the absence of a zinc ionophore, despite interest in this therapyfor prevention."
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That's not really relevant anymore. Two months ago it was because that was all we had to go on. Since then we have gold standard science on it. The science says it's useless for COVID, at best.
That's a study done using medical records from back in may. Better live studies (random placebo double blind studies) have shown it it of no use with this disease. Some have shown it actually results in worse outcomes than a placebo.
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It's 100% true. Here is another truth, if Trump had never mentioned it it would have already gone away and we would be a little bit closer to finding something that actually works. I'm neither pro nor anti-Trump but he just needs to shut up about science and medicine. He has done a lot of damage.
It does nothing: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014
You are right it does worse than nothing.
It causes earlier and longer Ventilator use.
It does nothing to prevent infection:https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638
And since May 2020, Double blind studies and research on using it in people found that it did not work.
There are double blind control trials underway right now testing this like the one below. This one is scheduled to run until September.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04370782
I have seen studies that looked at HCQ or HCQ + Azo at varying degrees of patient severity and had mixed results.
However, I have not seen any clinical trials about Zinc+HCQ given early in the disease course and showing negative outcomes. If you have more information I would like to see it. This is one big open experiment running in real time. I'm willing to take any good information out there. Right now, this appears to be a legitimate treatment option for early disease course. Studies not accounting for zinc levels are not comparable.
I have a ton of personal experience. It does not work. But I suspect those who want to find someone to give it to them would just ignore my personal experience and the scientific proof that exists.
At no point should I allow what I want to be true to over rule what science has shown to be true while practicing medicine. Doing so is dangerous. If you find a doctor who wants to ignore the most recent data and give you Plaquenil, just be careful moving forward. Chances are it won’t hurt you, but the people who tell you there are no risks are just straight out wrong.
I understand what you're trying to say, but again, that study you linked did not examine the addition of zinc sulfate to the drug course so it doesn't prove anything. The addition of Zinc is the important part current trails are examining.
Very good post. I mean, I would love for this drug to work, and it probably does in certain scenarios we haven't completely sorted out yet, but the only thing that you see talked about here or in the conservative echo chamber is random doctors declaring it works and there is some conspiracy. There are people going on Facebook reposting things about this one single treatment in a universe of treatments. Why do people act like this?
The study you cite involves virus patients receiving 4 liters of supplemental oxygen per minute.
Wouldn't a patient receiving that much supplemental oxygen have "significant" oxygen requirements?
If so, then that patient would at late-Stage III or Stage IV, right?
The doctor's discussion in the original post expressly states that hydroxy, or any other anti-viral would be ineffective at that point: "Late stage III and stage IV is when oxygen requirements are significant. By then, the virus has been cleared thanks to the immune system, but capillary clotting and inflammation of the green barrier (shown above) are still rampant. As the virus has been cleared, you can see clearly why, at this stage, Hydroxy (or any other antiviral) will miserably fail at making an impact. This is the stage where all the negative studies of Hydroxychloroquine that you hear about have been publicized."
Yes and no....
The common cold is caused by many different types of viruses. The ones most often associated with common cold by far are the rhinoviruses. There are also several coronaviruses that circulate in the general population and cause common cold but then not all coronaviruses are created equally. None of the cold coronaviruses are associated with SARS.
And yes, many of the symptoms of infectious diseases are related to immune response and the vigor of that response in rare instances can be lethal such as was the case with the 1918 Spanish Flu.
The common cold is caused by many different types of viruses. The ones most often associated with common cold by far are the rhinoviruses. There are also several coronaviruses that circulate in the general population and cause common cold but then not all coronaviruses are created equally. None of the cold coronaviruses are associated with SARS.
And yes, many of the symptoms of infectious diseases are related to immune response and the vigor of that response in rare instances can be lethal such as was the case with the 1918 Spanish Flu.
Isn't research based upon the "personal experience" of the person(s) whom performed the research?
Also, the original post said the doctor has been treating virus patients since February.
Finally, wouldn't the doctor read any available research to properly keep up with the virus treatments being administered across the country?
Can you describe your personal experience?
Also, based upon your personal experience, what is the best method of treatment for the virus?
NO personal experience does not come into it, not with a double blind study. Neither the patient nor the doctor giving the treatment knows what they are actually getting in a double blind study. That's what those studies are specifically designed to eliminate, personal bias.
Do you think all research is performed without personal bias? Surely not.
I've seen enough research during my life to know that "bad" data and results are often ignored, minimized or thrown out to support the desired conclusions of the researchers.
When COVID first showed up everybody received plaquenil and azithromycin. At no point did it feel like it was helping. Not to say that every patient I saw died. Of course not. Some people got over it, but the ones who got sick responded to nothing we did. I was not shocked when the studies started to come out that showed no benefit. We stopped using it. Out only real treatment at that time was plasma. It was hit or miss if we could get it for each patient and usually was not rapidly available. I noticed no difference in the clinical course of those patients without plaquenil/azithromycon compared to those who had received it.
We now give Remdesivir and Decadron to anyone requiring fio2. Usually plasma as well. We also consider Remdesivir in certain situations. I am in no way saying this is a miracle cure: people are still dying. I do feel for the first time during all this That we have a treatment regimen that is helping some of the patients. We have kept a significantly larger portion out of the ICU and off the ventilator.
The above is my personal experience. If a definitive study came out that showed plaquenil worked, I would give it in a heartbeat regardless of how I feel about it. I welcome any treatment that will help. The science as well as my personal experience says plaquenil does not.
And I understand what you are trying to say, but the evidence so far shows HCQ, HCQ+zpack, nor high does of Zinc Sulfate is not an effective treatment.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/adjunctive-therapy/zinc/
There is a non peer reviewed study, that the authors of the study say this cannot be used to guide clinical practice, that supports what you say. Which is why it's in a clinical trial.
High doses of Zinc are harmful as well.