IHSA playoff seeding process.....

[jha618]

You are correct, it is not the same. Playoff points (which is opponents wins) separate different teams.
strength of schedule is used in the current system by way of playoff points. A 6-2 CCL team may have 50 playoff points while a 6-2 team from another conference may have 37 points. Based on playoff points, the CCL team will be ranked higher thus including strength of schedule.

LA has 46 points, LWE has 43 points and Huntley have 32 points (Closed Conference). Based on strength of schedule using playoff points, LA is 1, LWE is 2 and Huntley is 3. System works perfectly.

What you are suggesting is that we value MC more and rank them at 6-2 or Huntley because we feel like MC losses are more superior to Huntley being undefeated. There is no factual way to back that up using numbers unless we ignore w/l records.

The only system that is flawed with IHSA is North and South brackets. Everything else is sound and fact based.

That is in fact not what I am saying at all.

But lets just say playoff points are an accurate way to determine SoS. BR has 50. Westinghouse has 29. And as it stands Westinghouse will have a higher seed in the playoffs because they have 7 wins vs significantly inferior opponents (according to IHSA) compared to Brother Rices 6 wins. Bartlett, who is on the outside of the playoff bubble, has 42 playoff point, which is 9 more than the current #1 seed in the 7a playoffs. That to me is a flaw in the system that has nothing to do with North and South.

 

[LHSTigers94]

That is in fact not what I am saying at all.

But lets just say playoff points are an accurate way to determine SoS. BR has 50. Westinghouse has 29. And as it stands Westinghouse will have a higher seed in the playoffs because they have 7 wins vs significantly inferior opponents (according to IHSA) compared to Brother Rices 6 wins. Bartlett, who is on the outside of the playoff bubble, has 42 playoff point, which is 9 more than the current #1 seed in the 7a playoffs. That to me is a flaw in the system that has nothing to do with North and South.

So in your world, winning the game itself has no value? BR at 50 says their strength of schedule is significantly tougher than Westinghouse 29 points. System perfectly define the separation in the two schedules. Are we to ignore Westinghouse wins? Should we just do away with conferences so everyone can schedule like BR and see what the results are? Keep in mind the District proposal is what solves this concern and level the playing field by setting everyones schedule.

Playoff points are based on wins (which determine how good a teams is correct?) therefore, a team that never win a game will have 8 more playoff points than a team that goes 8-0. That is why actual records matter right?

 

[LWN_Pheonix]

The IHSA A for Altitude mascot is supposed to be replaced by a number of”3” mascot in support of all of the underdogs entering into this years playoffs.

I for one love a Cinderella story and will be glued to my NHFS app in support of what some are calling “the participation award entrants”

 

[jha618]

So in your world, winning the game itself has no value? BR at 50 says their strength of schedule is significantly tougher than Westinghouse 29 points. System perfectly define the separation in the two schedules. Are we to ignore Westinghouse wins? Should we just do away with conferences so everyone can schedule like BR and see what the results are? Keep in mind the District proposal is what solves this concern and level the playing field by setting everyones schedule.

Playoff points are based on wins (which determine how good a teams is correct?) therefore, a team that never win a game will have 8 more playoff points than a team that goes 8-0. That is why actual records matter right?

You are making some wild assumptions my friend. There has to be atleast some sort of rationale, level-headed logic here. How did we get to the point where you are suggesting I want to ignore Westinghouses' wins? You brought up playoff points in an attempt to give credit to its value and accuracy by saying how it can separate teams with similar records. And my response was highlighting how wildly different two "similar" teams can be in playoff points, which is not reflected in the IHSA playoff seeding system.

You are also conflating two different arguments and using Playoff points and system interchangably. Playoff points is just basic, elementary school math. The "system" is what determines whether an 8-1 team with 30 playoff points gets a better seed than a 7-2 team with 55. Just saying "wins" determines how good a team is is really short sighted in the context of this discussion. You have been one of the biggest champions of Sunkett going out and scheduling the best competition he can, so for you to now champion this sort of race to 5 mentality where all wins are equal is odd.

 

[Cross Bones]

You are making some wild assumptions my friend. There has to be atleast some sort of rationale, level-headed logic here. How did we get to the point where you are suggesting I want to ignore Westinghouses' wins? You brought up playoff points in an attempt to give credit to its value and accuracy by saying how it can separate teams with similar records. And my response was highlighting how wildly different two "similar" teams can be in playoff points, which is not reflected in the IHSA playoff seeding system.

You are also conflating two different arguments and using Playoff points and system interchangably. Playoff points is just basic, elementary school math. The "system" is what determines whether an 8-1 team with 30 playoff points gets a better seed than a 7-2 team with 55. Just saying "wins" determines how good a team is is really short sighted in the context of this discussion. You have been one of the biggest champions of Sunkett going out and scheduling the best competition he can, so for you to now champion this sort of race to 5 mentality where all wins are equal is odd.

Its that he gets it and you think you can eyeball teams and place them in a tournament, but you cant.

 

[jha618]

Its that he gets it and you think you can eyeball teams and place them in a tournament, but you cant.

Go back and find my post where I said we should use the eyeball test to determine seeds. Or do you just like making up bs?

 

[SiuCubFan8]

You are making some wild assumptions my friend. There has to be atleast some sort of rationale, level-headed logic here. How did we get to the point where you are suggesting I want to ignore Westinghouses' wins? You brought up playoff points in an attempt to give credit to its value and accuracy by saying how it can separate teams with similar records. And my response was highlighting how wildly different two "similar" teams can be in playoff points, which is not reflected in the IHSA playoff seeding system.

You are also conflating two different arguments and using Playoff points and system interchangably. Playoff points is just basic, elementary school math. The "system" is what determines whether an 8-1 team with 30 playoff points gets a better seed than a 7-2 team with 55. Just saying "wins" determines how good a team is is really short sighted in the context of this discussion. You have been one of the biggest champions of Sunkett going out and scheduling the best competition he can, so for you to now champion this sort of race to 5 mentality where all wins are equal is odd.

As stated before all wins are not equal though.

 

[LHSTigers94]

You are making some wild assumptions my friend. There has to be atleast some sort of rationale, level-headed logic here. How did we get to the point where you are suggesting I want to ignore Westinghouses' wins? You brought up playoff points in an attempt to give credit to its value and accuracy by saying how it can separate teams with similar records. And my response was highlighting how wildly different two "similar" teams can be in playoff points, which is not reflected in the IHSA playoff seeding system.

You are also conflating two different arguments and using Playoff points and system interchangably. Playoff points is just basic, elementary school math. The "system" is what determines whether an 8-1 team with 30 playoff points gets a better seed than a 7-2 team with 55. Just saying "wins" determines how good a team is is really short sighted in the context of this discussion. You have been one of the biggest champions of Sunkett going out and scheduling the best competition he can, so for you to now champion this sort of race to 5 mentality where all wins are equal is odd.

Let me help you narrow focus.
Do the number 1 seed in all sports win a championship? We can look at College football, College Basketball, High School football in every State and High school Basketball in Illinois (Coaches do the seeding).

You are making some wild assumptions my friend. There has to be atleast some sort of rationale, level-headed logic here. How did we get to the point where you are suggesting I want to ignore Westinghouses' wins? You brought up playoff points in an attempt to give credit to its value and accuracy by saying how it can separate teams with similar records. And my response was highlighting how wildly different two "similar" teams can be in playoff points, which is not reflected in the IHSA playoff seeding system.

You are also conflating two different arguments and using Playoff points and system interchangably. Playoff points is just basic, elementary school math. The "system" is what determines whether an 8-1 team with 30 playoff points gets a better seed than a 7-2 team with 55. Just saying "wins" determines how good a team is is really short sighted in the context of this discussion. You have been one of the biggest champions of Sunkett going out and scheduling the best competition he can, so for you to now champion this sort of race to 5 mentality where all wins are equal is odd.

You like to take things off the rail with side comments that have no value. I am very specific with what I am saying.

All wins aren't equal, playoff points separate those. All loses aren't equal again playoff points separate those. What's constant is the value of the win. If you want the higher seed, win your games. No guessing, no assuming, no theory. If you win, you get a higher seed. When wins and loses are equal, playoff points shows the value in strength of schedule.

There is zero controversy with the NFL (cut and dry similar to IHSA) however, there is a ton in NCAA (the method you are suggesting). I support cut and dry. Everyone knows the rules and know how to operate under those terms.

 

[crusader_of_90]

History would be the only way...

Obviously it is D1 recruits!

 

[jha618]

Let me help you narrow focus.
Do the number 1 seed in all sports win a championship? We can look at College football, College Basketball, High School football in every State and High school Basketball in Illinois (Coaches do the seeding).

Being a #1 seed is not to suggest that you will or should win the championship. The #1 seed represents the team that has had to strongest or most impressive resume leading up to the assignment of those seeds. Its not a prediction of future success.

You like to take things off the rail with side comments that have no value. I am very specific with what I am saying.

What side comments are you referring to?

All wins aren't equal, playoff points separate those. All loses aren't equal again playoff points separate those. What's constant is the value of the win. If you want the higher seed, win your games. No guessing, no assuming, no theory. If you win, you get a higher seed. When wins and loses are equal, playoff points shows the value in strength of schedule.

I am not debating that point or diminishing the value of wins. But I feel there should be greater consideration for challenging schedules. And not just when the two teams have identical records. There is no additional benefit if i schedule 1 or 2 tough non con games and lose as I will still be seeded behind the team who scheduled 1 or 2 cupcake wins. There is a team with 19 playoff points who is comfortably in the playoffs. In that same class, there is a team who is a long shot to get in with 41. If that is a metric IHSA tracks and uses, then use it more than just when there is a tie in record.

There is zero controversy with the NFL (cut and dry similar to IHSA) however, there is a ton in NCAA (the method you are suggesting). I support cut and dry. Everyone knows the rules and know how to operate under those terms.

In the NFL, there is alot more parity and cut and dry makes more sense. It makes less sense the greater the chasm is between teams and conferences.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

In the end we are trying to fix something that the member schools must not mind or care about. Has there been alternate seeding proposal out there that I missed? And I might have missed it.

 

[SpeedyBoy25]

What are the chances that any first round team wins a state title?

Right now in 6A they have Naz in the south bracket. If they are actually in 6A south bracket they have a good chance to win it or at least make it to the finals

 

[Alexander33]

In the end we are trying to fix something that the member schools must not mind or care about. Has there been alternate seeding proposal out there that I missed? And I might have missed it.

About a week ago a very similar thread was introduced and discussed. The thread was titled, "With the expanded playoffs, is it time to use computer seeding?" Although it was not a formal proposal by an IHSA member school, the 50th post in that thread provided a comprehensive alternative seeding proposal.

In the last ten playoffs, neither division of the Upstate Eight Conference has had a single team reach the semifinal round.

Whereas, in the last five playoffs, the four-team Green Division of the Chicago Catholic League has had 15 teams make it to the semifinal round.

To not recognize that a much better level of football is played in the Green Division of the CCL than in the Upstate Eight is to simply deny a fundamental truth.

With that truth in mind, the comprehensive proposal (by using objective and transparent criteria) would increase (for seeding purposes) Nazareth's current win total from 4 to 6, and would decrease Riverside-Brookfield's win total from 7 to 5. That adjustment would give Nazareth a better seed than Riverside-Brookfield.

Interested individuals may want to read the comprehensive proposal referred to above. It is a short read.

 

[4Afan]

Interested individuals may want to read the comprehensive proposal referred to above. It is a short read.

The thing is, the only interested individuals are people around here looking to fix a system that isn't broken.

 

[K58W]

The thing is, the only interested individuals are people around here looking to fix a system that isn't broken.

Only thing that is broken is the North/South split for lower classes.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

I love the current seeding process.

Its one thing the IHSA got right.

 

[Alexander33]

The thing is, the only interested individuals are people around here looking to fix a system that isn't broken.

Your statement is a statement of opinion.

It seems a majority of IHSA members share your opinion. Otherwise, a formal proposal would have been submitted by an IHSA member and, if approved by a membership vote, the system would have been changed. It is appropriate, in a matter like this, that the preference of the majority should prevail. For my part, I have a slight preference for the current system over any other that I have seen proposed.

However, let's not pretend that a significant minority does not exist that have a different opinion. They think the strength of schedule component of the seeding process should carry more weight. We hear from that minority on this message board. We also know that it must exist among IHSA members because the matter is currently being discussed at the IHSA committee level.

So, let's not pretend that this is a matter of fact, rather than a matter of personal preference that it truly is. Let's not pretend that the current system does a good job of seeding teams based on their ability to play good football. Finally, let's not pretend that "jha618" is somehow way off base for voicing a minority opinion that many others share.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

The thing is, the only interested individuals are people around here looking to fix a system that isn't broken.

4a, I can't believe we agree on something!