If Cliff Is Hurting?

[zappaa]

There’s been a ton of speculation on this board during and after games so I don’t want this thread to downplay how Cliff’s defense and rebounding in the 2nd half last night was great.
If in fact any of your core players are compromised….IMO, it should be noted and communicated by the coach.
The viewing public and media should never have to watch a player struggle and have to speculate something is wrong with him….it’s doing a disservice to the player.
It’s important a coach acknowledges a young man is playing through an injury and gutting up for the team.
As for those who believe revealing an injury helps the opponent game plan or attack the affected player, I say through my experience it doesn’t not, as a matter of fact, we actually feared supposedly injured players, as they were the ones who seemed to step up at big moments.
Players at this level know immediately (if not sooner)…when the guy they are playing against isn’t right or moving normally…If Cliff is hurting Ohio St. already knows it and will plan accordingly for Cliff, then the supposedly hurt Cliff can swat, rebound and dunk on them leaving them to say, I thought Cliff was hurt!
That’s my take.
I don’t believe Cliff is injured , just my opinion, if he was truly in pain and taking one for the team just being out there, it should be noted and lauded.

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

Great post. He had (by the end of the game) a few good moments, but seemed overmatched and slow throughout. He’s looked like that since the Purdue game. Having him hedge out on the perimeter didn’t do him any service either.

 

[BigRnj]

I think there may be something to this about Cliff not being 100%. FWIW I have row A seats and I posted this in a thread back on December 22nd:

”Up close (both shu and wf games) it looks like Cliff is wearing a brace on his right knee under his legging. He barely jumped for the opening tap against wf.”

He was clearly limping back then and was wearing a support or brace. While he has certainly recovered enough to play hard I don’t think he looks 100% as explosive jumping or running as he did prior. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[zappaa]

I think there may be something to this about Cliff not being 100%. FWIW I have row A seats and I posted this in a thread back on December 22nd:

”Up close (both shu and wf games) it looks like Cliff is wearing a brace on his right knee under his legging. He barely jumped for the opening tap against wf.”

He was clearly limping back then and was wearing a support or brace. While he has certainly recovered enough to play hard I don’t think he looks 100% as explosive jumping or running as he did prior. I hope I’m wrong.

My OP has nothing to do with your observations Big Rnj… you could be right, although sleeves and braces are commonplace.

My OP is about the coach and staff acknowledging and lauding Cliff if he’s playing compromised.
The basketball world should know if he’s gutting up and playing hurt.
It has Zero affect on opposition game planning and gives them no information they can use against us.
The opposition center knows Cliff’s condition after 60 seconds

 

[BigRnj]

i agree with your thoughts regarding communication from the coaches. I’m just trying to shed some light on the “is he? / Is he not? Injured question.” My point is there was evidence, and a thread on this topic 2 1/2 weeks ago where he was limping and he was wearing support… there was radio silence from the staff back then too. Again I hope I’m wrong, but if he is gutting it out I agree that he should be lauded by the staff.

 

[Scangg]

Cliff is not 100%. As I've said. I was front row at Iowa. It's crystal clear from that close that he is favoring his right side.

Zappa thinks I'm just making this up apparently to protect Cliff and give an excuse for him I guess? Weird

Also, OP about Pike doing a disservice for not talking about Cliff being hurt is pure comedy

 

[zappaa]

Cliff is not 100%. As I've said. I was front row at Iowa. It's crystal clear from that close that he is favoring his right side.

Zappa thinks I'm just making this up apparently to protect Cliff and give an excuse for him I guess? Weird

Also, OP about Pike doing a disservice for not talking about Cliff being hurt is pure comedy

I also sit in the front row 3 feet from the players.
And if you believe players shouldn’t be commended and lauded by coaches publicly for gutting up and playing hurt for their team, so be it…you’re entitled to your opinion, and you can refer to giving a physically compromised player due props as “pure comedy” your choice.
I’ve been in the situation at the highest level, so has my brother…we respectfully disagree with you Dr Scangg.

 

[eedouble]

It could be as simple as a few nagging bumps and bruises. At this point of the season, I'm sure most guys are nursing something that's keeping them from being 100%. Maybe not enough to make it worth mentioning, but just enough to slow them a tiny bit.

 

[zappaa]

It could be as simple as a few nagging bumps and bruises. At this point of the season, I'm sure most guys are nursing something that's keeping them from being 100%. Maybe not enough to make it worth mentioning, but just enough to slow them a tiny bit.

The observations of his injuries by some of our board posters goes way beyond nagging bumps and bruises every rotation player in the league has
We’re talking no explosion, no jumping ability…It’s a big deal to play through that

 

[billgumpper]

Cliff is not 100%. As I've said. I was front row at Iowa. It's crystal clear from that close that he is favoring his right side.

Zappa thinks I'm just making this up apparently to protect Cliff and give an excuse for him I guess? Weird

Also, OP about Pike doing a disservice for not talking about Cliff being hurt is pure comedy

He dunked the ball last night with a defender pushing him in the back. He is not hurt.

 

[bac2therac]

has anyone explained why someone who is that hurt would be doing Gumbys off the floor

 

[billgumpper]

has anyone explained why someone who is that hurt would be doing Gumbys off the floor

Or hasn't missed practice.

 

[zappaa]

He also leads the team out for final warmups and dunks from the foul line

 

[Yeah Baby]

Great post. He had (by the end of the game) a few good moments, but seemed overmatched and slow throughout. He’s looked like that since the Purdue game. Having him hedge out on the perimeter didn’t do him any service either.

Overmatched? Lmao

 

[Yeah Baby]

has anyone explained why someone who is that hurt would be doing Gumbys off the floor

Agreed he is a much better athlete than any of us so I’m not having this discussion.

 

[hoquat63]

The observations of his injuries by some of our board posters goes way beyond nagging bumps and bruises every rotation player in the league has
We’re talking no explosion, no jumping ability…It’s a big deal to play through that

What about the play against Iowa went he leaped over the Iowa center?

 

[mikeyoc]

There could be a simple explanation: Like many players at this level, he's still
learning how to play

 

[Scangg]

It's funny people can't understand that Cliff can be hurt and still dunk. He's a freak athlete. He can do things less than 100% that others could only dream of doing. It doesn't mean he's perfectly healthy

It's not that hard to comprehend

 

[kwrightnj]

Could it be that maybe he's in a bit of a slump? I mean does anyone play great all the time?? Caleb has been a bit off too. The schedule is grueling and there are ebbs and flows. Cam will not continue to stay this hot. I hope he does but it's just not realistic. Good teams have enough good players to step up and weather these inconsistencies. Cliff will be fine.

 

[goru7]

Could it be that maybe he's in a bit of a slump? I mean does anyone play great all the time?? Caleb has been a bit off too. The schedule is grueling and there are ebbs and flows. Cam will not continue to stay this hot. I hope he does but it's just not realistic. Good teams have enough good players to step up and weather these inconsistencies. Cliff will be fine.

I think this is more to the truth. Cliff does look like he has lost some explosion the last few games and maybe the nagging bumps and bruises are adding up as the amount of banging he endures is greater than most. Caleb also seems to be dealing with things since the defender landed on his back and he went down awkward about 3 games ago. It is taxing on their bodies and it is rearing it’s head. Neither Caleb and Cliff look as explosive and also leading to mental lapses we have not seen. So the combination of physical and mental grind has resulted in what we are seeing.

Now basketball is a game of confidence and I am not seeing that out of Caleb or Cliff last 3 games. Have to get it back as we need both of them at their peak if we are going to win the BiG 10.

 

[zappaa]

It's funny people can't understand that Cliff can be hurt and still dunk. He's a freak athlete. He can do things less than 100% that others could only dream of doing. It doesn't mean he's perfectly healthy

It's not that hard to comprehend

What’s so funny about Cliff avoiding criticism from announcers and fans by Pike acknowledging he’s playing compromised? If he truly is?
What’s hard for you to comprehend playing hurt irequires a team first commitment that should be lauded if true?

 

[RUaddicted]

It looks like he is hurting from a lack of hands. Physically, he looks the same to me, just the level of competition has improved.

 

[RUBlackout]

Simpson must be hurt too with all those missed attempts….

I just think certain players get into slumps and need to break out of it. The first half of that Purdue game was amazing for cliff.

CM and Simpson are both in a funk right now too

 

[Scangg]

What’s so funny about Cliff avoiding criticism from announcers and fans by Pike acknowledging he’s playing compromised? If he truly is?
What’s hard for you to comprehend playing hurt irequires a team first commitment that should be lauded if true?

People play hurt all the time without talking about it. Or downplay it when they are clearly hurt and asked about it. It happens alllll the time. Maybe Cliff isn't so desperate for public praise that he needs Pike to publicly praise him for it and prefers to not talk about it or use it as an excuse

I'm not the one blaming Cliff saying he's ineffective and that he's healthy

 

[SirPerceval]

There’s been a ton of speculation on this board during and after games so I don’t want this thread to downplay how Cliff’s defense and rebounding in the 2nd half last night was great.
If in fact any of your core players are compromised….IMO, it should be noted and communicated by the coach.
The viewing public and media should never have to watch a player struggle and have to speculate something is wrong with him….it’s doing a disservice to the player.
It’s important a coach acknowledges a young man is playing through an injury and gutting up for the team.
As for those who believe revealing an injury helps the opponent game plan or attack the affected player, I say through my experience it doesn’t not, as a matter of fact, we actually feared supposedly injured players, as they were the ones who seemed to step up at big moments.
Players at this level know immediately (if not sooner)…when the guy they are playing against isn’t right or moving normally…If Cliff is hurting Ohio St. already knows it and will plan accordingly for Cliff, then the supposedly hurt Cliff can swat, rebound and dunk on them leaving them to say, I thought Cliff was hurt!
That’s my take.
I don’t believe Cliff is injured , just my opinion, if he was truly in pain and taking one for the team just being out there, it should be noted and lauded.

That's why I do not think he is hurt - I don't ever recall injuries being kept a secret with Pike (type and extent of injury maybe) but not the mere fact that someone is less than 100%.

 

[Scangg]

Pike completely downplayed Paul and Caleb's injuries already this year. Said Caleb "tweaked" his knee and acted like it was nothing and he was out over a month. Cliff isn't even missing games so no reason to even mention it

 

[SkilletHead2]

There’s been a ton of speculation on this board during and after games so I don’t want this thread to downplay how Cliff’s defense and rebounding in the 2nd half last night was great.
If in fact any of your core players are compromised….IMO, it should be noted and communicated by the coach.
The viewing public and media should never have to watch a player struggle and have to speculate something is wrong with him….it’s doing a disservice to the player.
It’s important a coach acknowledges a young man is playing through an injury and gutting up for the team.
As for those who believe revealing an injury helps the opponent game plan or attack the affected player, I say through my experience it doesn’t not, as a matter of fact, we actually feared supposedly injured players, as they were the ones who seemed to step up at big moments.
Players at this level know immediately (if not sooner)…when the guy they are playing against isn’t right or moving normally…If Cliff is hurting Ohio St. already knows it and will plan accordingly for Cliff, then the supposedly hurt Cliff can swat, rebound and dunk on them leaving them to say, I thought Cliff was hurt!
That’s my take.
I don’t believe Cliff is injured , just my opinion, if he was truly in pain and taking one for the team just being out there, it should be noted and lauded.

Hey Zap,
That is a take on a situation I had never really considered before. Thanks for posting that! Hope you and yours are doing well.

 

[zappaa]

People play hurt all the time without talking about it. Or downplay it when they are clearly hurt and asked about it. It happens alllll the time. Maybe Cliff isn't so desperate for public praise that he needs Pike to publicly praise him for it and prefers to not talk about it or use it as an excuse

I'm not the one blaming Cliff saying he's ineffective and that he's healthy

When you play sports at a high level you need to be able differentiate between hurt and injured
Players play hurt all the time and there productivity doesn’t suffer much, playing injured is a different animal.
We’re watching Cliff score in the single digits 3 straight games…4, 9, 4
He’s better than that.
If he’s playing injured the public should know, the opposing team sure does.
Personally, it bothers me the color commentators are asking what’s the matter with Cliff

 

[hiwater]

Great post. He had (by the end of the game) a few good moments, but seemed overmatched and slow throughout. He’s looked like that since the Purdue game. Having him hedge out on the perimeter didn’t do him any service either.

You must have been watching a different game. He controlled the boards, turned away drives, and disrupted shots all game. He force a few shots that he should not have, but he made up for and some with his passing and being a decoy to draw doubles so others can get open shots.

Your other thread Cliff a liability right now was such a bad take. We lose the game easily by 10 points without him on the floor.

 

[jerseybird]

You must have been watching a different game. He controlled the boards, turned away drives, and disrupted shots all game. He force a few shots that he should not have, but he made up for and some with his more passing and being a decoy to draw doubles so others can get open shots.

Your other thread Cliff a liability right now was such a bad take. We lose the game easily by 10 points without him on the floor.

Cliff wears a lot of different hats during a game.

 

[Scangg]

When you play sports at a high level you need to be able differentiate between hurt and injured
Players play hurt all the time and there productivity doesn’t suffer much, playing injured is a different animal.
We’re watching Cliff score in the single digits 3 straight games…4, 9, 4
He’s better than that.
If he’s playing injured the public should know, the opposing team sure does.
Personally, it bothers me the color commentators are asking what’s the matter with Cliff

Cliff is a guy who scores based on his elite athleticism. If he has a calf strain and is 80/85% or so it is going to impact his game. He isn't relying on superior technique or skill to get buckets. It's all about explosion and athleticism for Cliff

 

[anon1753890747]

There’s been a ton of speculation on this board during and after games so I don’t want this thread to downplay how Cliff’s defense and rebounding in the 2nd half last night was great.
If in fact any of your core players are compromised….IMO, it should be noted and communicated by the coach.
The viewing public and media should never have to watch a player struggle and have to speculate something is wrong with him….it’s doing a disservice to the player.
It’s important a coach acknowledges a young man is playing through an injury and gutting up for the team.
As for those who believe revealing an injury helps the opponent game plan or attack the affected player, I say through my experience it doesn’t not, as a matter of fact, we actually feared supposedly injured players, as they were the ones who seemed to step up at big moments.
Players at this level know immediately (if not sooner)…when the guy they are playing against isn’t right or moving normally…If Cliff is hurting Ohio St. already knows it and will plan accordingly for Cliff, then the supposedly hurt Cliff can swat, rebound and dunk on them leaving them to say, I thought Cliff was hurt!
That’s my take.
I don’t believe Cliff is injured , just my opinion, if he was truly in pain and taking one for the team just being out there, it should be noted and lauded.

Willis Reed comes to mind
That said I don’t think he is hurt, the play he got called on a travel under the basket the way he went up came down did a 180 no way he is hurt

 

[RUHouston]

Maybe Pike is respecting his HIPAA status?

Kidding.

 

[zappaa]

Cliff is a guy who scores based on his elite athleticism. If he has a calf strain and is 80/85% or so it is going to impact his game. He isn't relying on superior technique or skill to get buckets. It's all about explosion and athleticism for Cliff

Or he’s not hurt and just in an offensive funk.
The way teams are playing him or the way we’re running our offense also has an impact

 

[bitnez]

I believe someone else said it in here (or another thread) — Cliff is getting pushed off the block. He’s not comfortable 8-10 ft. from basket. He should kick it back out and give himself an opportunity to reset deeper. At the same time, because teams are sagging to him it has opened up outside shots.

It will be very interesting to see what teams start to do with Cam. The secret is out. We’re about to find out how good Cam’s dribble drive is and that should free up Cliff for some drop off dunks.

 

[billgumpper]

People play hurt all the time without talking about it. Or downplay it when they are clearly hurt and asked about it. It happens alllll the time. Maybe Cliff isn't so desperate for public praise that he needs Pike to publicly praise him for it and prefers to not talk about it or use it as an excuse

I'm not the one blaming Cliff saying he's ineffective and that he's healthy

And I'm not the one making excuses for a player who is not meeting the expectations put on him in the off season. Ritchie said in the Ask the staff post that Cliff is not hurt.

 

[hiwater]

I believe someone else said it in here (or another thread) — Cliff is getting pushed off the block. He’s not comfortable 8-10 ft. from basket. He should kick it back out and give himself an opportunity to reset deeper. At the same time, because teams are sagging to him it has opened up outside shots.

It will be very interesting to see what teams start to do with Cam. The secret is out. We’re about to find out how good Cam’s dribble drive is and that should free up Cliff for some drop off dunks.

That hasn't worked for Cam on the dribble so far. He either gets a poor off balance shot off, gets blocked or hung up. He has not shown the knack for passing to Cliff or anyone on the block when he is stopped, and he looks like he lacks the hops to get a good shot off. He has not shown a runner like Mulchahy uses at times. Driving inside is not his game

 

[mildone_rivals]

What I thought I saw in the first half of the game, Cliff's transitions from motionless to movement looked stiff. Once moving, it wasn't visible. And it seemed better in the second half.

I've had various back issues since college age and what I'm describing was always associated with soreness in my lower back. I'd easily put it out of my mind once moving. But I'd always feel it as I got started moving, and now and then when in the midst of twisting motions.

Cliff moved fine when jumping and when moving straight. Where he seemed slow, to me, was when something would happen behind him (a strong-side player getting past one of our guards and driving the lane, or his mark rolling behind him after he steps out high to give a guard time to get around a pick). So Cliff would have to rapidly turn and move towards that player behind him.

Normally, he's very quick to do that, and we don't even notice anything because he's very good at recovering back quickly to his man after getting out to defend the pick or when stepping over to help with a driving guard. But in this last game, he was really slow in those sorts of moments.

And that fits perfectly with the sort of lower back thing I'm talking about. It's not an injury, per se. But it's an irritant that can definitely have an impact on one's performance.

OTOH, maybe he's dealing with sleep issues or GF issues or other distractions. Or maybe he's just been off his game for a couple games. It happens to the best of 'em.

But despite what the team might've replied to questions about it, I'm still leaning towards a minor lower back thing.

 

[zappaa]

What I thought I saw in the first half of the game, Cliff's transitions from motionless to movement looked stiff. Once moving, it wasn't visible. And it seemed better in the second half.

I've had various back issues since college age and what I'm describing was always associated with soreness in my lower back. I'd easily put it out of my mind once moving. But I'd always feel it as I got started moving, and now and then when in the midst of twisting motions.

Cliff moved fine when jumping and when moving straight. Where he seemed slow, to me, was when something would happen behind him (a strong-side player getting past one of our guards and driving the lane, or his mark rolling behind him after he steps out high to give a guard time to get around a pick). So Cliff would have to rapidly turn and move towards that player behind him.

Normally, he's very quick to do that, and we don't even notice anything because he's very good at recovering back quickly to his man after getting out to defend the pick or when stepping over to help with a driving guard. But in this last game, he was really slow in those sorts of moments.

And that fits perfectly with the sort of lower back thing I'm talking about. It's not an injury, per se. But it's an irritant that can definitely have an impact on one's performance.

OTOH, maybe he's dealing with sleep issues or GF issues or other distractions. Or maybe he's just been off his game for a couple games. It happens to the best of 'em.

But despite what the team might've replied to questions about it, I'm still leaning towards a minor lower back thing.

Ok
So if he in fact he’s dealing with lower back issues say it.
In no way does it affect or help the opposing team prepare for him, they’re going to break down game film and see it, or attack him the same way teams have the last three games .regardless.
There’s even people saying they think Caleb is hurting, if he is who ever he’s guarding knows it immediately

 

[RUDiddy777]

Pike completely downplayed Paul and Caleb's injuries already this year. Said Caleb "tweaked" his knee and acted like it was nothing and he was out over a month. Cliff isn't even missing games so no reason to even mention it

And a banged up Cliff is still better than anyone else behind him.