Identity

[RAC93]

What is the team’s identity now that we are 12 games in? The team itself is unsure of their identity as a group, that’s a big problem. All offseason we heard about this uptempo, three point shooting and high scoring team……that’s not what we see. Are they a tough, defensive minded, grind it out, low scoring typical Pike team? No, not so much. This group has no identity and they still lack connectivity on both ends of the floor.
Pike and team need to pick a lane and go with it. I could care less about being fast paced and shooting a ton of threes. If playing a slower, defense first and tough style is what they play with, then so be it. Part of the reason this team looks so disjointed and out of sync is they don’t know who and what they are as a team. Just make a choice, pick a lane, don’t care but go with something that allows us to have some sort of shot at being remotely competitive in conference while developing the young players, pick a SHORTENED (we play too many guys) rotation that best suits that style, and PLAY HARD AND PLAY TOUGH. Maybe it’s not a big identity mantra or anything…..they could just say, from this day forward no one in the Big Ten is going to box out better than us, play with more toughness for 50/50 balls in the entire conference or outwork us. This is obviously not the most talented group, but an underdog mindset of hustle, grit, and toughness would be the start of some semblance of an identity that they currently lack.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

The staff needed to change for recruiting sake and growth of the program.

BUT

It's 2 months and we haven't or may not have our full backcourt (Davis missed games, Austin Williams missed games) and we went to a backcourt and didn't commit to remaining uptempo, which play to the strengths of Davis, Fernandes, Simpson and especially Griffiths.

Kinda hard to get running, when the front court wings, never align to compliment the backcourt. Mag, Palmquist Woolfolk and Hyatt are not run and gun players. The only one who maybe can claim that they can play uptempo is probably Hyatt, he played in that style with Will Wade at LSU, but that was 4 years ago.

Cliff would also benefit by this, but there's no consistent rebounding to help him.

The team is seeing Davis and Simpson taking some ownership as underclassmen, which is good. They're guards and mixed with Fernandes, that should be where the identity comes from. I don't see Cliff or Mag being that type of leadership and it's much harder to do so, when you don't have the ball in your hands, like the guards do.

Fans may freak out about Simpson taking these shots, but someone has to take a leadership role, so it's him and Davis, once he is back in the lineup, creating this identity.

 

[RAC93]

The staff needed to change for recruiting sake and growth of the program.

BUT

It's 2 months and we haven't or may not have our full backcourt (Davis missed games, Austin Williams missed games) and we went to a backcourt and didn't commit to remaining uptempo, which play to the strengths of Davis, Fernandes, Simpson and especially Griffiths.

Kinda hard to get running, when the front court wings, never align to compliment the backcourt. Mag, Palmquist Woolfolk and Hyatt are not run and gun players. The only one who maybe can claim that they can play uptempo is probably Hyatt, he played in that style with Will Wade at LSU, but that was 4 years ago.

Cliff would also benefit by this, but there's no consistent rebounding to help him.

The team is seeing Davis and Simpson taking some ownership as underclassmen, which is good. They're guards and mixed with Fernandes, that should be where the identity comes from. I don't see Cliff or Mag being that type of leadership and it's much harder to do so, when you don't have the ball in your hands, like the guards do.

Fans may freak out about Simpson taking these shots, but someone has to take a leadership role, so it's him and Davis, once he is back in the lineup, creating this identity.

I agree with what you said especially regarding Davis and Simpson, but let’s commit to something. I want to see Simpson, Davis, and Gavin get as many minutes as practicable for their development towards next season. I don’t care what style this team plays, just pick one and commit as it still looks like a bunch of guys playing pick up ball getting in their cardio for the day at the local gym like it did against Princeton. We just got out worked and out hustled by Stonehill…..that should be a big eye opener for them that they need to play tougher and work harder. Let’s play hard and develop this year.

 

[zappaa]

Our successful Identity under Pike has been, tough, relentless, physical, beat you up and frustrate you basketball.
I have a ton of opposition coaches quotes to prove it!!!
Any form of going away from it is a change in philosophy

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

At thsi poi

The staff needed to change for recruiting sake and growth of the program.

BUT

It's 2 months and we haven't or may not have our full backcourt (Davis missed games, Austin Williams missed games) and we went to a backcourt and didn't commit to remaining uptempo, which play to the strengths of Davis, Fernandes, Simpson and especially Griffiths.

Kinda hard to get running, when the front court wings, never align to compliment the backcourt. Mag, Palmquist Woolfolk and Hyatt are not run and gun players. The only one who maybe can claim that they can play uptempo is probably Hyatt, he played in that style with Will Wade at LSU, but that was 4 years ago.

Cliff would also benefit by this, but there's no consistent rebounding to help him.

The team is seeing Davis and Simpson taking some ownership as underclassmen, which is good. They're guards and mixed with Fernandes, that should be where the identity comes from. I don't see Cliff or Mag being that type of leadership and it's much harder to do so, when you don't have the ball in your hands, like the guards do.

Fans may freak out about Simpson taking these shots, but someone has to take a leadership role, so it's him and Davis, once he is back in the lineup, creating this identity.

This all may be true. But this gives us no hope for making a run for the rest of the season.

 

[RAC93]

Our successful Identity under Pike has been, tough, relentless, physical, beat you up and frustrate you basketball.
Any form of going away from it is a change in philosophy

Agreed, we were supposed to see a change in philosophy this year but I would argue the only thing we’re seeing is soft play. The good news about the Stonehill game is we finally won the rebounding battle……by 48-46………..we outrebounded STONEHILL by 2 rebounds!!! We should outrebound a team like that by at least 20+ boards. Let’s get back to effort, grit, and toughness with this group as Stonehill showed more of it than we did.

 

[jakeknight]

Rac93, you are correct right now there is no identity the are disparate pieces, probably the quickest way to develop one is too concentrate on one aspect, defense would be a good place to start now that Mag is back, at least that brings the team to a common focus. If this year turns into a write off, then Noah is the odd man out and you play the young guys plus Mags and Cliff, might as well who can be complimentary pieces to the three freshman next yr.

 

[RAC93]

Rac93, you are correct right now there is no identity the are disparate pieces, probably the quickest way to develop one is too concentrate on one aspect, defense would be a good place to start now that Mag is back, at least that brings the team to a common focus. If this year turns into a write off, then Noah is the odd man out and you play the young guys plus Mags and Cliff, might as well who can be complimentary pieces to the three freshman next yr.

I am buying what you’re selling. Let’s get something out of this season for next season. This team lacks common, singular focus, let’s at least figure that out and maybe they can develop and compete better at the same time.

 

[willisneverrana43]

This year's basketball team has an identity, we just don't like it. They are an excellent defensive team that can't shoot (ranked worse than 300th in nation), can't pass (near 200th), and is middling to below average at rebounding (110th). That's how they've been all year, that's how they are right now. Identity. Maybe they'll improve; maybe not. But it's not hard to identify who they are and who they have been up to this point.

 

[RAC93]

This year's basketball team has an identity, we just don't like it. They are an excellent defensive team that can't shoot (ranked worse than 300th in nation), can't pass (near 200th), and is middling to below average at rebounding (110th). That's how they've been all year, that's how they are right now. Identity. Maybe they'll improve; maybe not. But it's not hard to identify who they are and who they have been up to this point.

I disagree with the excellent defensive team. They press well at times during games and their half-court defense has been better this year than I though it would be. But their defensive rebounding is atrocious, don’t care that they are 110th overall in rebounding. Against real opponents (Princeton, SHU, Wake, Illinois, and Miss. State) they have lost the rebounding battle while struggling to get defensive rebounds. Even Stonehill was basically a dead heat, with RU grabbing 48-46 in rebounds……..that was Stonehill, with only 6 scholarship players. I can’t categorize them as excellent defensively, maybe they’re a good defensive team but not excellent. Their identity can be defense, that’s fine, I am fine with that….. but if that’s the case then they need to greatly improve on the defensive glass. The OOC games against lower opponents don’t tell us much, but when you look at this team in the 5 real opponent games they’ve played, they have not looked tough and have given up too many extra possessions on offensive rebounds. They sure could use a go to guy for buckets in the last few minutes (Hyatt is closest thing they have but that’s not really him), sure would love to see one of the young guys grow into that role during the season (Gavin, Simpson). Not saying that is going to happen, just would love to see it.

 

[fluoxetine]

can't shoot (ranked worse than 300th in nation), can't pass (near 200th)

Where are you getting this? If it's an assist ranking it's heavily impacted by the first part of this quote (i.e. you cannot get an assist if the shot is missed).

We are decent at not turning the ball over (15.8% offensive turnover percentage is #77) and assist on a fair percentage of our baskets (assist rate 53.9 is #106). Furthermore, a lot of the times we make bad passes it seems to be because our guys hesitate to shoot (see point #1).

 

[willisneverrana43]

Where are you getting this? If it's an assist ranking it's heavily impacted by the first part of this quote (i.e. you cannot get an assist if the shot is missed).

We are decent at not turning the ball over (15.8% offensive turnover percentage is #77) and assist on a fair percentage of our baskets (assist rate 53.9 is #106). Furthermore, a lot of the times we make bad passes it seems to be because our guys hesitate to shoot (see point #1).

TeamRankings. Even the numbers that you cite aren't good. Data mine all you want, but right now this team's identity is that of a bad, very bad offensive team.

 

[NickRU714]

This year's basketball team has an identity, we just don't like it. They are an excellent defensive team that can't shoot (ranked worse than 300th in nation), can't pass (near 200th), and is middling to below average at rebounding (110th). That's how they've been all year, that's how they are right now. Identity. Maybe they'll improve; maybe not. But it's not hard to identify who they are and who they have been up to this point.

We don't like it or it's not working?

I'm sure some people love our identity of all defense and minimal offense.
Same as it always has been.
Previously it worked despite whether a segment of fans liked it or not.

This season, it isn't working though.

 

[fluoxetine]

TeamRankings. Even the numbers that you cite aren't good. Data mine all you want, but right now this team's identity is that of a bad, very bad offensive team.

Well I meant what stat is it, not the source. But it appears to be assists per game? Much like raw rebounding stats it's completely skewed by shooting.

Yes, the numbers I cited are mediocre, not good. But they aren't terrible. Shooting is the problem.

 

[willisneverrana43]

We don't like it or it's not working?

I'm sure some people love our identity of all defense and minimal offense.
Same as it always has been.
Previously it worked despite whether a segment of fans liked it or not.

This season, it isn't working though.

To be more frank, focusing on an amorphous notion of "identity" is a way to bloviate around the problem. The real problem is the talent, not some sort of identity crisis.

 

[bac2therac]

okay one thing RU does do pretty well is forcing turnovers..anyone have a stat on that

unfortunately RU does not seem to do much after they force turnovers

 

[fluoxetine]

okay one thing RU does do pretty well is forcing turnovers..anyone have a stat on that

unfortunately RU does not seem to do much after they force turnovers

Defensive turnover rate is 23.2% which is #11.

 

[bac2therac]

Defensive turnover rate is 23.2% which is #11.

thats excellent...we found somethiing that this team does excellent....is there a points off turnover rate

 

[fluoxetine]

Don't think so as it's not calculable from standard box score stats.

 

[RU-ROCS]

okay one thing RU does do pretty well is forcing turnovers..anyone have a stat on that

unfortunately RU does not seem to do much after they force turnovers

And that is mostly due to a very effective full court press, which is hard to do when you don’t make baskets on the offensive end. The most recent example - We couldn’t press Stonehill at key times because we kept missing shots on offense.

 

[BillyC80]

Well I meant what stat is it, not the source. But it appears to be assists per game? Much like raw rebounding stats it's completely skewed by shooting.

Yes, the numbers I cited are mediocre, not good. But they aren't terrible. Shooting is the problem.

I wish I could like this twice.

Yes, we could do a better job on the defensive glass, but we make up for it by getting more turnovers.

Teams beat us in total rebounding because we miss so many shots.

The idea on offense is to get (and make) as many good shots as possible. If you factor in offensive rebounding differential with turnover differential, we’re usually pretty even with our opponents in terms of shots taken from the field. We get tons of good looks that we simply miss. Same with FTs.

Stonehill got 30 defensive rebounds against us, but we missed 45 shots from the field (we got 15 ORebs vs 10 for them), plus they fouled us 27 times and we missed 13 foul shots which made the game closer and gave them a few more defensive rebound opportunities. Cliff alone took 20 foul shots and missed 9 of them.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Pike has had his fair share of teams that couldn't shoot well. But the rebounding numbers were never this bad.

 

[fluoxetine]

Pike has had his fair share of teams that couldn't shoot well. But the rebounding numbers were never this bad.

Kenpom adj offensive efficiency

2016-17 101.5 / #231
2017-18 99.2 / #270
2018-19 105.6 / #152
2019-20 107.9 / #72
2020-21 108.1 / #82
2021-22 106.9 / #96
2022-23 106.3 / #151
2023-24 101.0 / #240

Offense is back to the early days.. all of Pike's decent to good teams were at least above the D1 average offensively. You can compete with the #150 offense. You can be good with the #72 offense. It's pretty hard to overcome the #240 offense.

Defensive rebounding is also atrocious but it is true that our defensive efficiency (which includes the impact of the horrible rebounding) is #16. So we are doing a lot of other really good things on that side of the ball that are offsetting the rebounding to a degree. (It also means if we actually rebounded like other Pike teams we would be looking at a top 5 defense).

 

[fluoxetine]

- Also kenpom is still including preseason weightings, if you look at Bart and remove preseason we are #286 on offense and #9 on defense

- And the offensive ineptitude is virtually all about shooting percentage. Contrary to the defensive side we are average at offensive rebounding (#144 in OR%), we are above average at not turning the ball over (#77 in TO%), we are above average at drawing fouls (#48 in FTR). What we have been just absurdly dreadful at is shooting the ball (#327 in eFG%).

 

[willisneverrana43]

Yes, Pike has had his fair share of bad shooting teams.

 

[Scangg]

Definitely lack of identity and leadership

You can't run if you can't rebound

You can't press if you can't score

We lack toughness. Remember when we regularly would see Rutgers players diving on the floor?

 

[NickRU714]

thats excellent...we found somethiing that this team does excellent....is there a points off turnover rate

I would assume (with no actual stats) that we are lower in points off turnover rate.
We don't seem to finish and score on breakaways often.
Feels like it's a contested layup or blocked shot frequently.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

I don't see an on-court "alpha" out there. Thinking it might be Jeremiah Willaims but that can't help on game day right now.