I'll have to check it out closer.
Is it possible to have spread concepts and still have a physical football team?
Identity
- Thread starter jflores
- Start date
Is it possible to have spread concepts and still have a physical football team?
Absolutely it is, look at Auburn. They are a very physical run first spread team. Ohio St has an element of physicality. Mississippi St is very physical. But they use a lot more 21 and 22 packages than UCF and Oregon ran.
I haven't charted a UCF game, but at Oregon, it was tempo based, to wear out the defense, not lean on them to to wear them down.
Good quote. Seems Frost knows it is important to be physical. Fast and physical is what he wants. Sounds good to me
He's wishing Oregon was more physical, because the nature of their offense isn't inherently physical. He said in the same article he wished someone would combine the two...and cutting to my opinion now....its logical that it would be him but as of yet we've yet to see that transition take place. Either when he was at OU or UCF.
In that same interview, he starts out with most teams are not successful in replicating Oregon's offense because they only take pieces. He says you have to take the whole hog, practices, recruiting, mentality, all in alignment.
I would assume then, that one reason he hasn't combined Osborne's offense with Kelly's offense is that he doesn't know how to do it yet without "breaking" Oregon's "whole system" approach.
My guess would be that if Frost were a long tenured coach here....he'd eventually get around to it. However in the short term, if he's given keys to this Ferrari, he's probably not going to reinvent the wheel with some new offense he's never tried out anywhere before, he's probably going to run what he has been trained to run in the last decade.
Which is why I'm curious as to whether folks are just fine with being a run based "finesse" team, rather than this Riley based "finesse" team.
We talked about this earlier. The problem with combining tempo and power is that you lose the effectiveness of one or the other. Bigger, powerful linemen cant keep up with a play every 20 seconds and smaller quicker linemen cant overpower bigger DLinemen. So you find yourself with medium sized linemen that aren't quite as good at tempo or quite as good at power. If you could find enough 320 lb offensive linemen that had stamina to run a play every 20 seconds, that would be the ultimate.
Yah the dichotomy of speed and power is another reason merging the two would be hard from a "master your identity" standpoint.
There was something I read not too long ago where a reporter asked Frost about comparing his "The Process" with Nick Saban's "The Process".
Frost kinda shot back, well everyone obviously knows Saban's "The Process" and ours is much different (ostensibly because Frost runs a tempo system and Saban mostly runs a traditional/power system historically).
This leads me to believe that Frost doesn't have some magic "blue pill" that is going to give us both. Its clear that he doesn't mimic Saban's offensive philosophy. At least right out of the gate.
Frost kinda shot back, well everyone obviously knows Saban's "The Process" and ours is much different (ostensibly because Frost runs a tempo system and Saban mostly runs a traditional/power system historically).
This leads me to believe that Frost doesn't have some magic "blue pill" that is going to give us both. Its clear that he doesn't mimic Saban's offensive philosophy. At least right out of the gate.
I hope nobody assumes that Frost is gonna run the same thing he ran in Oregon or in Florida.
For pretty much all coaches this is a safe bet.
I’m not saying it’s impossible for frost to roll a different offense than the one he does... it’s just unlikely
Frost is a QB and even though he won the NC running a run based offense most former QB love passing offenses. How many times have you heard former QBs say "I wish I'd played in an passing offense" I think it's unrealistic to think Frost would scrap everything he was tutored under.
To be fair, Frost is running an offense at UCF utilizing what he already had on campus and could easily recruit, mostly smaller fast RBs, WRs and QB. It's not like he can line up and run smash mouth with his roster. He might do something very different at a different school. Didn't Oregon have LeGarrett Blount at RB? I would say that was a power back.
Power was a huge part of Chip Kelly's offense. Helfrich seemed to pass more. The biggest thing is we have a qb with mobility in the future. You are handicapping your team if you don't have a mobile qb. Don't get me wrong, it is okay to have a pass first guy, but he better have some mobility to keep the defense honest. Frost also looks like he has the real deal at D.C. If Frost comes, he better bring him along.
I guess I don't get all of this identity stuff. I see what Riley is trying to do with his offense. It is basically pro set. You could ask the question - are the pros physical and the answer would be yes. So if you ask me what this teams "identity" is I would look at it a bit differently. I would say they run a pro set on O and a 3-4 D. That is not identity to me.
I get from reading this forum that identity means run the darn ball. Don't care what the formation is just run it. A lead block would be nice as well. Oh and two blocking TE's. So I guess that is still back to formation, not identity.
Now if you ask what the Husker teams of old were known for, to me it was hard nose, get in your face, physical and relentless effort on every play and in every facet of the game with the intent to unleash violence on the opposition. Of course we they did that regardless of the formation or style at the time. It was a precision and dedication to the details of the game, regardless of the formation, that escape many coaches and certainly the above average fan.Most see the result of the play and are happy or mad.
If that is what people are calling identity, it can be done in any set and if you think the O Frost has been running, I think you may be disappointed. And if you think he is going to change when he goes to another school because someone says, oh by that way, we have a certain identity around here we have to maintain so find a way to get there and he says oh, thats fine, I will just learn an entirely new offense to teach everyone. Doesn't work that way. If you think it does you are dreaming.
Just because Frost ran one thing in college doesn't mean that is all he knows or even knows the finer details of coaching it. Big difference there. I would like to see things turn around and work out for Riley and the team going forward. I just think no matter what happens, there is going to be a hard core group that is not going to be happy. Its all about identity somehow I guess - whatever that is. Oh it is run the darn ball, I get it.
I get from reading this forum that identity means run the darn ball. Don't care what the formation is just run it. A lead block would be nice as well. Oh and two blocking TE's. So I guess that is still back to formation, not identity.
Now if you ask what the Husker teams of old were known for, to me it was hard nose, get in your face, physical and relentless effort on every play and in every facet of the game with the intent to unleash violence on the opposition. Of course we they did that regardless of the formation or style at the time. It was a precision and dedication to the details of the game, regardless of the formation, that escape many coaches and certainly the above average fan.Most see the result of the play and are happy or mad.
If that is what people are calling identity, it can be done in any set and if you think the O Frost has been running, I think you may be disappointed. And if you think he is going to change when he goes to another school because someone says, oh by that way, we have a certain identity around here we have to maintain so find a way to get there and he says oh, thats fine, I will just learn an entirely new offense to teach everyone. Doesn't work that way. If you think it does you are dreaming.
Just because Frost ran one thing in college doesn't mean that is all he knows or even knows the finer details of coaching it. Big difference there. I would like to see things turn around and work out for Riley and the team going forward. I just think no matter what happens, there is going to be a hard core group that is not going to be happy. Its all about identity somehow I guess - whatever that is. Oh it is run the darn ball, I get it.
Their run game is primarily inside zone and outside zone, though they will pull linemen some. They use fairly wide line splits. Frost will use four and five WR sets, but the TE is a key piece. They have two good ones at UCF. Their starting TE is arguably their best player. An important piece is that they like hybrid RB/WR guys so they will motion from 11 to 21 or from 21 to 11 personnel.
Whether you want to call it physical or not, it's been an effective rushing offense for years. Far better than what we have now.
Whether you want to call it physical or not, it's been an effective rushing offense for years. Far better than what we have now.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. LaMichael James and Kenjon Varner were speed backs. Both 5’9 and 190-195 lbs.
I don't think it will be exactly the same but very similar I would say. I've seen him running some lead blockers out of the SG which I never really noticed much watching Oregon but I'd expect much of the same from him.
Power back doesn’t necessarily mean he played in a power run offense.
You are assuming Frost doesn’t want smaller faster WR and Backs. And you are assuming he wants to line up and run smash mouth. Nothing I’ve read on him, including what JFlores posted in this thread, indicates a desire to get away from the Oregon style offense.
I would say this +1000. If Nebraska had an amazing D like a few teams do, it wouldn't matter what type of offense you ran. If we could hold the other team to 14 or fewer points per game we would win everyone of those.
The inside zone read was a huge part of Kelly's run game. There were some years he ran the play around 200 times for 6-8 yards a carry. He has said before their goal was to be a physical downhill run team. Kelly also typically had a 60-40 or 65-35 run to pass ratio. His offense wasn't total finesse.
I don’t think anyone said he didn’t like to run the ball. Just that he didn’t line up with in 22 package and smash mouth and power run. A lot of single back with 3 and 4 wide and/or a Flex TE. They took advantage of numbers and tempo. There was some physicality to their run game, I just wouldn’t consider it a power run game.
Any good run offense is going to take advantage of numbers. Osborne did the same thing with his run game. The running qb gives you a numbers advantage. You said Kelly didn't run much power. The inside zone play was one of the main staples of his run game. To say Kelly didnt believe in the power run game is wrong. When Kelly's teams typically had problems is when that play got shut down. Stanford gave Oregon fits some years by getting after them up front.
Inside zone and power are two completely different plays. Overwhelming force at the point of attack is the idea, the inside zone is not blocked in the same manner.
It’s getting too late to have this discussion. The advantage in numbers was done by spreading the defense sideline to sideline, it opened up the middle of the field leaving 5 blockers to 4 or 5 defenders. Inside zone doesn’t necessarily equate to power. I can run inside zone in flag football setting picks instead of blocking.
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.c...ight-chip-kelly-and-his-oregon-ducks-playbook
Chip Kelly explains it. I'll take his word that its physical football.
I guess what I'm saying is...can't you be tempo AND be nasty at the same time? I mean physical mentality brought to the tempo game?
Zach weigert and rob zatecha said what made them all so good was 1s vs 1s hammering each other wth no other goal than to kick the others ***.
Do you have to be tempo and finesse?
A team can run two tight FB sets and be pussies....can't a spread tempo team be physical and nasty?
I never said it wasn't physical, that would be foolish of me considering football is a physical game. I said that these zone plays are not power but that certainly doesn't mean zone blocking isn't physical. You can run power, counter, lead dives, etc. out of spread sets as well but Oregon is not what one would really call a power spread offense. Auburn runs quite a bit of power type stuff and they have a more physical style than most, pretty cool offense to watch. That usually isn't the norm though, kind of goes against the idea of even using a spread offense. You're using speed and spreading them out to get them in to space so they can make plays, you're not really making space by paving the way with lead blocks and such.
I guess my point in it all is that I think some are going to expect smash mouth football and we're probably not going to get that style of play. We wont be the most physical team and we may throw it on 3rd and 2 (Oregon's screen game is sort of an extension of their run game). Our defense may be strained as well due to the uptempo offense. I'm not saying we cant be good or cant be physical, rather that the idea is to have room to work so you athletes can make a man miss in the open instead of just throwing people out of the way.
I don't expect us to run smash mouth offense, but the Oregon offense under Kelly does have some similar concepts to Osborne's. We can argue how the inside zone play is blocked under Kelly, but it's essentially a dive play up the middle. There is no finesse about it. I would still consider that a power run play. I still believe to win at Nebraska you need to have a mobile qb with a run first mentality. The qb better be able to throw accurate when needed. Frost looks like the easy hire because he would bring a type of offense which could win here, and the guy knows the culture. Nothing is a guarantee if Frost would win. I also get that. However if Frost was successful here, you have your coach for 20 years. The guy isn't going to leave.
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But physical and power aren’t the same thing are they? I should have addressed this specifically in my response. When most Nebraska fans think of the days of yore, they think of power football, OLinemen coming straight off the ball vertically and pushing the defender back 10 yards and creating a hole. Oregon and even Frost’s offense isn’t about that. The linemen move horizontally down the LOS and the back finds a gap. When you are spread them out, the defense is even more vulnerable because now you have space and numbers.
So yes it can still be physical but I don’t consider the offense a power running offense.
I think my original response to you was yes there is an element of physicality but that it isn’t a physically imposing offense. Teams arent getting worn out from getting pounded play after play, they are getting worn out from tempo and defending a play every 20 seconds.
It's in the data. He doesn't run the ball more than Riley et al. If RTDB guy is all roses for Frost it would further illustrate the ridiculous insider vs. outsider double standard ******** that is ubiquitous in our fanbase.
Oregon ran with generally smaller quicker O linemen and relied on getting people out of position with their tempo and scheme. They ran in to trouble sometimes where they met similar speed and needed to be able to be physical and run the ball. UCF right now is using the same model in part because that's what they have to work with. Would Frost use more power in a different location? Maybe.
Yes understood
Personally I just want an effective run game especially when it's called for. I don't like it when coordinators outthink themselves as langsdorf has done at times.
UCf and Oregon have shown they can run effectively when needed.
Frost should be a candidate if there is indeed a change. But there should be other candidates.
To me it's more about when it is called for or needed.ucf has shown they can
That's comment is about as subjective as it comes. And frankly, how many UFC games have you watched? Charted? How about Nebraska games?
Are the losses we've had due to poor clock management and failure to run the ball to grind out wins subjective?
I know you're extremely butt hurt by this, but Riley is currently failing and frost will logically, for numerous reasons, be a candidate if Riley can't right the ship and is fired.