How dumb is Memphis for playing Wiseman?

Cap'n Geech · Nov 13, 2019

Or do they know something we don't know?

My understanding is that if the the TRO is lifted and the ineligibility ruling is upheld not only would they forfeit (or vacate?) victories that he plays in, they could be banned from this season's tourney.

jethreauxdawg · Nov 13, 2019

The NCAA said he was eligible

6 months ago, and then said an hour before game one that he might be ineligible. Typical NCAA two faced crap. Just play him, he’s gone next year anyway and so are several other starters. It also tells recruits that the school and coach have their backs.

Cooterpoot · Nov 13, 2019

It also tells recruits Penny will cover their costs to get them there.

Philly Dawg · Nov 13, 2019

It tells me that the administration at Memphis has no control over their basketball program or Penny.

stateu1 · Nov 13, 2019

Philly Dawg said:
It tells me that the administration at Memphis has no control over their basketball program or Penny.

Huh? It tells me they have his back and they have the back of the player. If they back down they are 17’ing Wiseman by not letting him play this season.
Whereas state just suspends guys 8 games and opens their ********.

DesotoCountyDawg · Nov 14, 2019

You don’t know Memphis athletics then. Basketball is everything to them and they are fully backing Penny and Wiseman but they’re just the guy in a poker tournament with the short stack who decides to go all in.

jdbulldog · Nov 14, 2019

Cap'n Geech said:
Or do they know something we don't know?

My understanding is that if the the TRO is lifted and the ineligibility ruling is upheld not only would they forfeit (or vacate?) victories that he plays in, they could be banned from this season's tourney.

NCAA’s once solid, intimidating empire is beginning a slow crumble. It will back down and reach a resolution in this matter.

patdog · Nov 14, 2019

Memphis is all in. I think they figure they can keep it tied up in the courts with an injunction letting him play until after the season is over. They'll vacate wins if they have to.

Drebin · Nov 14, 2019

Somebody had to step up and ultimately challenge the NCAA. I'm glad it's Memphis doing it, because if they fail, it's just Memphis, so nobody will care if they get smashed. But if they succeed...we may start to see some real changes.

1984dog · Nov 14, 2019

Cap'n Geech said:
Or do they know something we don't know?

My understanding is that if the the TRO is lifted and the ineligibility ruling is upheld not only would they forfeit (or vacate?) victories that he plays in, they could be banned from this season's tourney.

I was told that Penny paid the recruits mother some $$ for moving expenses a couple of years ago when Penny was a high school coach. Penny then got hired to Coach Univ of Memphis and low and behold the player signed with Memphis. If the rules were different, the kid/recruit would have been a 1st round NBA pick out of high school. The NCAA ruled that he would be eligible because all the cash flow was before Penny was coach at Univ of Memphis and the player had yet to play for Penny at the high school Penny was coaching. If the NCAA would have told him that he would not be eligible, the player would have made a few million $ to play one year in Europe and then on to the NBA. However, since the NCAA cleared the player and Penny, the kid signed to play one year at Univ of Memphis and then on to the NBA.

The NCAA has now ruled that since Penny played at University of Memphis and many years ago made a very large financial contribution to the University of Memphis, that Penny was considered a Booster. The NCAA now claims that since Penny is classified as a Booster, that the kid would not be eligible.

I think this is sad because the kid could have made a few million playing ball in Europe this year if the NCAA would not have been two faced about this. The NCAA should be held accountable for the kids financial loss.

ll Martain ll · Nov 14, 2019

NCAA football and basketball are minor league sports at this point. Pretending some these guys are “student-athletes” is getting harder and harder.

I hope the NBA adopts the NFL/MLB three year rule soon. It’s been good for both of those sports at the collegiate level.

Bucky Dog · Nov 14, 2019

Speaking of, how in the 17 is will Wade on the sideline and not in jail??? I’m sure Penny and Memphis see that **** show and say the NCAA ain’t goons do **** to us!

i hope LSU loses every basketball game they play! And I hope every home team does to LSU what the students at VCU did last night. That was awesome!

Drebin · Nov 14, 2019

patdog said:
Memphis is all in. I think they figure they can keep it tied up in the courts with an injunction letting him play until after the season is over. They'll vacate wins if they have to.

The funny thing is that they aren’t particularly well coached. They looked like dog **** the other night. I doubt they win anything of significance this year anyway.

Cap'n Geech · Nov 14, 2019

What did the VCU students do last night?

DesotoCountyDawg · Nov 14, 2019

Or could have just not signed with Memphis and played somewhere else then there’s no issue.

DesotoCountyDawg · Nov 14, 2019

Some of them dressed up as FBI agents and were harassing the LSU bench.

Seinfeld · Nov 14, 2019

Personally, I think it's a bad move. The situation looks very bad for all involved, and being that the NCAA initially ruled him eligible in May and then admitted that it made a mistake, there's no one that wants this to go away more quickly than them. Now that legal teams and courts are involved as well, I'd expect the NCAA to make an official ruling within a matter of days. If that happens, then you have to ask what Memphis really got out of playing Wiseman for 3-4 games, and was it really worth the possible backlash that could come from it. At this point, it's very possible that the NCAA says that Wiseman is only suspended for 10 games, but because Memphis chose to play him, they get a postseason ban, Penny is suspended, lost scholarships, etc. And all for what?

From the Memphis point of view, you do have to remember that they received a court issued restraining order against the NCAA, so if the NCAA does try to get tough on them, best case... a judge won't allow it. Worst case, they'll be able to string this entire thing out in court for the next 6 months, and by the time it's over, the season will be over as well. At that point, it's just a matter of whether you care about vacated wins and such

Again, I wouldn't be playing Wiseman right now, but I do get why Memphis thinks they have the NCAA backed into a corner. What's going to be interesting is how the NCAA initially rules on Wiseman and then what they decide to to about Memphis playing him anyway. Bear in mind that Sidney was penalized 1.3 seasons for what amounted to $11,800 in preferential benefits, so it's hard to imagine any scenario where Wiseman is ruled ineligible for anything less than a season. This is the NCAA, though...

Drebin · Nov 14, 2019

Seinfeld said:
Personally, I think it's a bad move. The situation looks very bad for all involved, and being that the NCAA initially ruled him eligible in May and then admitted that it made a mistake, there's no one that wants this to go away more quickly than them. Now that legal teams and courts are involved as well, I'd expect the NCAA to make an official ruling within a matter of days. If that happens, then you have to ask what Memphis really got out of playing Wiseman for 3-4 games, and was it really worth the possible backlash that could come from it. At this point, it's very possible that the NCAA says that Wiseman is only suspended for 10 games, but because Memphis chose to play him, they get a postseason ban, Penny is suspended, lost scholarships, etc. And all for what?

From the Memphis point of view, you do have to remember that they received a court issued restraining order against the NCAA, so if the NCAA does try to get tough on them, best case... a judge won't allow it. Worst case, they'll be able to string this entire thing out in court for the next 6 months, and by the time it's over, the season will be over as well. At that point, it's just a matter of whether you care about vacated wins and such

Again, I wouldn't be playing Wiseman right now, but I do get why Memphis thinks they have the NCAA backed into a corner. What's going to be interesting is how the NCAA initially rules on Wiseman and then what they decide to to about Memphis playing him anyway. Bear in mind that Sidney was penalized 1.3 seasons for what amounted to $11,800 in preferential benefits, so it's hard to imagine any scenario where Wiseman is ruled ineligible for anything less than a season. This is the NCAA, though...

One thing to consider about Memphis...this is the second time in recent memory that the NCAA has cleared a player to play for them and then later changed their mind. The first player was Derrick Rose and Memphis had to vacate a final four and 38 wins. I'm sure they are sick of this crap. The NCAA wouldn't do this to a blue blood program and they need to be called out on stuff like this.

It's beyond bush league for the NCAA to backtrack on clearance decisions. Supposedly, Memphis sought guidance from the NCAA before Wiseman signed and got the all clear, and then he was cleared by the NCAA clearinghouse in May. If something like this happened to us, we would all be going nuclear. It may not work out well for them in the end, but I don't blame Memphis for going to the mattresses over this.

Go Budaw · Nov 14, 2019

1984dog said:
I was told that Penny paid the recruits mother some $$ for moving expenses a couple of years ago when Penny was a high school coach. Penny then got hired to Coach Univ of Memphis and low and behold the player signed with Memphis. If the rules were different, the kid/recruit would have been a 1st round NBA pick out of high school. The NCAA ruled that he would be eligible because all the cash flow was before Penny was coach at Univ of Memphis and the player had yet to play for Penny at the high school Penny was coaching. If the NCAA would have told him that he would not be eligible, the player would have made a few million $ to play one year in Europe and then on to the NBA. However, since the NCAA cleared the player and Penny, the kid signed to play one year at Univ of Memphis and then on to the NBA.

The NCAA has now ruled that since Penny played at University of Memphis and many years ago made a very large financial contribution to the University of Memphis, that Penny was considered a Booster. The NCAA now claims that since Penny is classified as a Booster, that the kid would not be eligible.

I think this is sad because the kid could have made a few million playing ball in Europe this year if the NCAA would not have been two faced about this. The NCAA should be held accountable for the kids financial loss.

It’s not being two faced as much as it is general incompetence on the part of the NCAA. The NCAA ruled it OK because they didn’t know Penny made the donation that classified him as a booster....like somehow they didn’t think that was worth checking into when a millionaire alumni to a university who also has deep AAU ties is hired as head ball coach. Or, they knew about it, and still made some horrendous ruling initially without correctly applying their own rules. Either way, its just flat out idiots running the show.

Drebin · Nov 14, 2019

Go Budaw said:
It’s not being two faced as much as it is general incompetence on the part of the NCAA. The NCAA ruled it OK because they didn’t know Penny made the donation that classified him as a booster....like somehow they didn’t think that was worth checking into when a millionaire alumni to a university who also has deep AAU ties is hired as head ball coach. Or, they knew about it, and still made some horrendous ruling initially without correctly applying their own rules. Either way, its just flat out idiots running the show.

They did know about the donation. According to Wiseman's attorneys, Memphis disclosed that information to the NCAA and they still cleared Wiseman initially.

The black helicopter theory is that a particular blue blood coach who was the head coach at Memphis when Penny made his donation and missed out on Wiseman in recruiting is the one that got all of this stirred up with the NCAA. I'm not sure if I believe that or not, but it sounds like something he would do.

Maroon Eagle · Nov 14, 2019

At least one of them is an old friend of Wade's according to the Baton Rouge Advocate:

Leaving the court after LSU rallied from a 15-point first-half deficit and came up two points shy of overtime, Wade hugged one of the faux FBI agents — an old friend from his time here.

"Gary Watkins is a good dude, I still talk to him some," Wade said laughing. "He probably doesn’t want that out there, but I still talk to him. I don’t know that anybody wants to be associated with me here, but he’s a good dude."

Edit to add link: Here.

johnson86-1 · Nov 14, 2019

Cap'n Geech said:
Or do they know something we don't know?

My understanding is that if the the TRO is lifted and the ineligibility ruling is upheld not only would they forfeit (or vacate?) victories that he plays in, they could be banned from this season's tourney.

Well, Memphis was technically a defendant in the lawsuit. Can't find the actual restraining order, but it may have prohibited the university from not playing Wiseman.

But the university is openly supporting the lawsuit, not hedging and claiming that they are just complying with the judge's order.

I suspect that with an elected judge in shelby county, whatever final order he gives will prohibit the NCAA from punishing Memphis for Wiseman playing while the temporary restraining order (and any subsequent injunction) is in place. Not sure that would have happened in the past, but with California taking the position that they can dictate policy to the NCAA, I think you'll see fewer courts and legislatures scared to do the same.

o_dawgnabit · Nov 14, 2019

Well Memphis just announced they are sitting Wiseman until the investigation is over.

Nunya.sixpack · Nov 14, 2019

Drebin said:
The black helicopter theory is that a particular blue blood coach who was the head coach at Memphis when Penny made his donation and missed out on Wiseman in recruiting is the one that got all of this stirred up with the NCAA. I'm not sure if I believe that or not, but it sounds like something he would do.

in the realm of black helicopters, that is not so far fetched. if it's lined up timing wise, it makes a great dotted line.

mstateglfr · Nov 14, 2019

Bucky Dog said:
..I’m sure Penny and Memphis see that **** show and say the NCAA ain’t goons do **** to us!

View attachment 14543

mstateglfr · Nov 14, 2019

Cooterpoot said:
It also tells recruits Penny will cover their costs to get them there.

That isnt even close to what has been documented and well published.

Go Budaw · Nov 14, 2019

Drebin said:
They did know about the donation. According to Wiseman's attorneys, Memphis disclosed that information to the NCAA and they still cleared Wiseman initially.

The black helicopter theory is that a particular blue blood coach who was the head coach at Memphis when Penny made his donation and missed out on Wiseman in recruiting is the one that got all of this stirred up with the NCAA. I'm not sure if I believe that or not, but it sounds like something he would do.

Calipari pulling a Phil Fulmer. Very nice. In any case, it’s a black and white ruling as to how the rules should be applied. He should have never been able to be recruited by Memphis.

Go Budaw · Nov 14, 2019

You’re definitely right about everyone looking bad. Penny is exposed as being sleazy as hell, as we pretty much already knew. Like he really paid 5 figures in moving costs out of the goodness of his heart. Wiseman family has their hand out (as you would expect). NCAA is bungling and incompetent. Memphis fans and the university are actively rooting for him to play strictly based on a technicality / loophole, and waxing poetic about “fairness to the student athlete” to cover up for their purely selfish reasons for wanting him on the court. Whole thing makes me feel like I need to take a shower.

DeeBostJumper · Nov 14, 2019

Just read this thread. Some of y'all have no grasp on the actual situation. Living in Memphis so I have some ties and enjoy their basketball program. But the whole Penny paid him to go to Memphis or this was all thought out that Tubby Smith would get fired and Penny would take Wiseman to Memphis wasn't even a thought when this payment went down. Penny was pushing Wiseman to Kentucky before taking the job. Anybody with knowledge of Memphis High school basketball would tell you that.
As for Cal making the call to the NCAA, that's a horrible misguided rumor. Cal is upset at himself for not hiring Penny so that he could then get Wiseman. And have more connections to the AAU circuits

fishwater99 · Nov 14, 2019

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...wiseman-ineligible-play-drops-lawsuit-vs-ncaa

Yep...

johnson86-1 · Nov 14, 2019

fishwater99 said:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...wiseman-ineligible-play-drops-lawsuit-vs-ncaa

Yep...

I'm guessing there is an agreement in principal on the number of suspended games. They'll wait a little while to announce it, let Wiseman sit for a couple of games before the announcement and a couple of games after, and that will be that. Too much for the NCAA to lose to fight it, but they have to have Wiseman sit at least for a little while or it will be obvious Wiseman didn't drop his lawsuit as much as the NCAA capitulated.

CochiseCowbell · Nov 14, 2019

fishwater99 said:
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...wiseman-ineligible-play-drops-lawsuit-vs-ncaa

Yep...

"Wiseman's lawyers from Ballin, Ballin & Fishman and Farese, Farese & Farese released a statement..."

This team clearly also represents The Department of Redundancy Department.

mstateglfr · Nov 14, 2019

Go Budaw said:
You’re definitely right about everyone looking bad. Penny is exposed as being sleazy as hell, as we pretty much already knew. Like he really paid 5 figures in moving costs out of the goodness of his heart. Wiseman family has their hand out (as you would expect). NCAA is bungling and incompetent. Memphis fans and the university are actively rooting for him to play strictly based on a technicality / loophole, and waxing poetic about “fairness to the student athlete” to cover up for their purely selfish reasons for wanting him on the court. Whole thing makes me feel like I need to take a shower.

The last thing I have thought thru all of this is that Penny looks sleazy as hell.

Back when he wasnt in any way a college coach, he helped pay for the family to move. He also coached Wiseman.
Oh the horror that a wealthy pro athlete helps guide a phenomenal kid thru the dirty worlds of AAU play and college recruiting.
By all accounts, Wiseman is polite and has his **** together.

If Hardaway wanted to work with Wiseman on his AAU and high school teams, then ok so be it. Paying moving expenses helped make that happen. That doesnt make Hardaway sleazy.

This all was before Hardaway had any idea he would be the coach at Memphis.

I dont see a distinction in difference between this current issue and when college coaches lead national junior teams then land players from the junior teams.

Bulldog Bruce · Nov 14, 2019

The dumb part is that NCAA basketball is unwatchable unless you like seeing rebounds. There has been such a drain of talent with players leaving after 1 or 2 years. They need to let these talented players PLAY. If they get drafted and don't like their position, let them come back and PLAY. If they have been playing in Europe professionally and then want to get an education, let them PLAY. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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If in the initial investigation they decide he can't go to Memphis, then fine. But once he was approved, let him PLAY.

Seinfeld · Nov 14, 2019

I agree with you that there is zero actual evidence at this point to tie this all back to Cal, but a “horrible misguided rumor”?

What would possibly make you think that Cal is above an act like that?

Seinfeld · Nov 14, 2019

That’s my thought as well because there’s really no other reason for Memphis to suddenly drop it’s lawsuit and declare Wiseman ineligible on the same day. They’re waiting on an agreed upon ruling that will likely be coming any day now.

My question, though, is how in the world would the NCAA defend a minimal suspension when it has banned guys for entire seasons for less? Our own Renardo Sidney got 1.3 years for < $12k in benefits

Go Budaw · Nov 14, 2019

mstateglfr said:
The last thing I have thought thru all of this is that Penny looks sleazy as hell.

Back when he wasnt in any way a college coach, he helped pay for the family to move. He also coached Wiseman.
Oh the horror that a wealthy pro athlete helps guide a phenomenal kid thru the dirty worlds of AAU play and college recruiting.
By all accounts, Wiseman is polite and has his **** together.

If Hardaway wanted to work with Wiseman on his AAU and high school teams, then ok so be it. Paying moving expenses helped make that happen. That doesnt make Hardaway sleazy.

This all was before Hardaway had any idea he would be the coach at Memphis.

I dont see a distinction in difference between this current issue and when college coaches lead national junior teams then land players from the junior teams.

So you think Penny paid to have his family moved as a philanthropist, and by sheer coincidence the dude just happened to be the best player in the 17ing country that could also help out his AAU team? ********. He paid because he benefitted from having the kid on his team, and stood to benefit even more by steering him to whatever XYZ school could fetch the highest bid. Hell, the way that whole shady system is set up, it may not have even been his money used to issue the payment...could have been just a pass through situation. If it was a random kid from Nashville that didn’t even play basketball but lives in the ghetto and is gang banging, does he lift that family out to give them a better life? Hell no. Penny was serving Penny. No two ways about it. And he ended up serving himself way better than he could have possibly imagined when it turned out that he got the Memphis job.

jethreauxdawg · Nov 14, 2019

So that makes him sleazy?

That’s an incredibly clean AAU procedure. Nike wants the kid to wear their shoes. Penny is a big rep for Nike. Penny has an AAU team. Nike gets this kid on Penny’s team by paying for his family to move to Memphis. Kid wants to be on the team because it is the best AAU team in the country. Everyone wins. Penny never told the NCAA he didn’t do it. In fact he told the NCAA about it in order to make sure wiseman would be cleared to play. They cleared him to play 6 months ago, then for some reason said “whoops, we didn’t mean that” right before the first game.

Go Budaw · Nov 14, 2019

jethreauxdawg said:
That’s an incredibly clean AAU procedure. Nike wants the kid to wear their shoes. Penny is a big rep for Nike. Penny has an AAU team. Nike gets this kid on Penny’s team by paying for his family to move to Memphis. Kid wants to be on the team because it is the best AAU team in the country. Everyone wins. Penny never told the NCAA he didn’t do it. In fact he told the NCAA about it in order to make sure wiseman would be cleared to play. They cleared him to play 6 months ago, then for some reason said “whoops, we didn’t mean that” right before the first game.

Yes, it makes him sleazy. The whole AAU system is cancerous and sleazy in general, and he was right in the middle of it. It was a running joke everywhere right after he got hired that you might as well start taking bets on how long it takes Memphis to get put on probation, because everyone knew where he came from and how transparent it was that they were just trying to cash in on the shady underworld of AAU. This was a guy who had no college or NBA coaching experience, period, who landed a head job at a historical Top 20-25 program. Couldn’t have been any more obvious what Memphis was trying to do with this hire. And fast forward to now and he’s already looking at vacating the first couple of wins of his career. Also, I don’t believe for one second that the $11,800 is all that changed hands between Penny (or whoever he represents), but it was enough obviously for there to be big issues.

And in regards to the above bolded part, what is that even supposed to mean? It’s OK to blatantly cheat when recruiting and landing top prospects as long as you are upfront about it? That’s not exactly how it works.

mstateglfr · Nov 14, 2019

Go Budaw said:
So you think Penny paid to have his family moved as a philanthropist, and by sheer coincidence the dude just happened to be the best player in the 17ing country that could also help out his AAU team? ********. He paid because he benefitted from having the kid on his team, and stood to benefit even more by steering him to whatever XYZ school could fetch the highest bid. Hell, the way that whole shady system is set up, it may not have even been his money used to issue the payment...could have been just a pass through situation. If it was a random kid from Nashville that didn’t even play basketball but lives in the ghetto and is gang banging, does he lift that family out to give them a better life? Hell no. Penny was serving Penny. No two ways about it. And he ended up serving himself way better than he could have possibly imagined when it turned out that he got the Memphis job.

Wait what?

No i dont think penny did this as a philanthropic gesture. I didnt say that or suggest it.
He clearly wanted to work with Wiseman due to a mix of talent, effort, and coachability. As I said, helping the family move was him helping ensure he would get to work with Wiseman.
It's was a mutually beneficial move at the time.

That isnt sleazy.

If I had millions and was retired doing what I want in my 40s, I could easily see scenarios where I financially help families I know thru kids I mentor(i help run a youth mentorship program right now). So if I coached and cared about legacy, yeah I could definitely see doing that same thing if it mutually benefitted the kid/family as well as me.

As for your rambling about who penny will lift a finger for- you cant 'save' everybody. You connect with others thru shared interests or circumstance and that is often who benefits and has an opportunity to move up in life. Others are naturally left behind in the process. Hell yes this happened because Wiseman is absurdly talented- it's a basketball player and coach...who the 17 do you expect Hardaway to take an interest in?
A basketball coach taking an interest in a player...again- oh the horror.

I cant comment on Hardaway 'fetching the highest bid' for Wiseman because inhavemt heard anything about that. I plead ignorance if that happened and if it did happen, I would look at the situation differently. If you have links to stories about this happening, please post them. If you dont, then it's just a wild *** guess on your part due to stereotyping the situation and there is no reason to pay the guess any attention.

Again- when this happened, Penny wasnt a college basketball coach. He didnt steer Wiseman to Memphis with this moving payment.

Basically, the ncaa is saying that once you donate a big check, you are a booster forever. There is no end date according to them. Its absurd and it should be challenged.

Hardaway didnt give that money so Wiseman would attend Memphis. If the money were so Wiseman would attend Memphis, then sure that's shady. But it wasnt for that.

How dumb is Memphis for playing Wiseman?

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