To me it just shows how BAD our defense really is.....NC STATE almost DOUBLED UP a MUCH BETTER TEAM's output yesterday against us. In fact NC STATE's 2nd half output of 53 yesterday outscored UNC's ENTIRE POINT TOTAL against UVA, 53-49! EXTRAORDINARY to myself.... Not to mention embarrassing....OFC
Hiring a Defensive Coordinator
- Thread starter BlueDevilWildcat
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To me it just shows how BAD our defense really is.....NC STATE almost DOUBLED UP a MUCH BETTER TEAM's output yesterday against us. In fact NC STATE's 2nd half output of 53 yesterday outscored UNC's ENTIRE POINT TOTAL against UVA, 53-49! EXTRAORDINARY to myself.... Not to mention embarrassing....OFC
Love to watch their D, and wish we could at least SIMULATE SOME of the switching/rotation/communication schemes they incorporate. OFC
Yeah it’s great! We used a similar variation in 2010 which is the reason we won the NC...was a great adjustment from Coach K....we have never done it since....makes no sense to me...this team would be perfect for it...limit the penetration...make them shoot over our length all game...our bigs would always be in position and we would rebound and block shots like crazy...the dribble penetration just breaks the foundation of our entire scheme...and it’s so easy to do when you overplay everything and are extended out so far...
Makes zero sense to press either if starting five is all going 37min plus...to much fatigue...over fourty min...why the bigs can’t run the floor...they are tired...
No doubt, admittedly pace definitely has something to do w\it given UVA's propensity to melt the clock down on each possession. Obviously there are LESS possessions too! Still the way they lock you down and limit transition, dont give up many wide open dunks, and contest most every shot is quite impressive.
Just the sheer disparity in numbers- was alarming to me especially since the Wolfpack scored more in ONE HALF vs us yesterday than UNC's total number in C'ville. Surely no where to go but up for us defensively.
I thought K-coach described our'10 defense very well. I think you also noted the Ken-Pom highly ranked defensive stat for that squad.
OFC
It is not the switch that is killing us but the weak side rotation that we have not mastered.Example Bagley rotated up top and left someone unguarded for a dunk.That is the hardest concept to master in man to man defense.As they play more they will start to recognize who to pick up or at least I hope they do
Ks best teams could hold you to 60 while dropping 100. K is/was a phenomenal Defense coach but at the same time he is a phenomenal Offensive coach.. to suggest otherwise is silly. And to suggest he's not the great 1 or 2 coachs in basketball history is silly too. But as we sit today we still put up the points but the D has changed. that's because of the one and done embrace. If he wants that talent he has to figure out a D that can work or we will never reach the talents potential. It's so frustrating because we have incredible talent and the best player in the country (sorry trae)
Pisgah spot on, and the points you brought out are really why we're spoiled in a sense I suppose. OFC
Those teams had the advantage of being in the system for two or three years.In today’s world that does not happen.We are judging this team fourteen games into the season.I would expect them to improve on their rotations as the season progresses
Very true. We just hope our guys will embrace that side of the ball a little better. I'm not saying that they're selfish or anything and don't want to play defense, it's just that we are further behind on that side of the ball than we expected them to be, or that's how I feel. Then K's comments after the BC game gave hope that the practice time would help, but it hasn't.
Duke's D per Kenpom
2002 - 2011: 01, 15, 03, 02, 16, 06, 07, 28, 05, 09
2012 - 2018: 79, 26, 86, 11, 86, 47, 108
We know why 2015 was an anomaly - Quinn finally buying in, Amile as quarterback, a very special talent in Winslow, and good matchups in the tourney that brought our D down from a regular season of about 50ish.
We know that Coach's D is complicated enough to require defensive talent and upperclass experience. But we don't address either of those needs. We largely focus on offensive skills when we recruit, and we play such a short bench that guys like Chase don't stick around long enough for us to benefit from his experience.
Even that would be at least partially addressable if we simply adjusted our approach to fit how Coach runs his teams. But we don't do that, either.
Having a father in his 70s, I know that someone in that age bracket isn't changing their ways, no matter how much common sense dictates they should. Which is why we all have professional reporting relationships, to help address our blind spots, for the good of the organization.
Personally I hope that more reporters start asking very pointed questions of Coach, to address the lack of common sense in some of these answers he's giving. If that provides some pressure to make some changes, I think that's a good thing for Duke basketball.
2002 - 2011: 01, 15, 03, 02, 16, 06, 07, 28, 05, 09
2012 - 2018: 79, 26, 86, 11, 86, 47, 108
We know why 2015 was an anomaly - Quinn finally buying in, Amile as quarterback, a very special talent in Winslow, and good matchups in the tourney that brought our D down from a regular season of about 50ish.
We know that Coach's D is complicated enough to require defensive talent and upperclass experience. But we don't address either of those needs. We largely focus on offensive skills when we recruit, and we play such a short bench that guys like Chase don't stick around long enough for us to benefit from his experience.
Even that would be at least partially addressable if we simply adjusted our approach to fit how Coach runs his teams. But we don't do that, either.
Having a father in his 70s, I know that someone in that age bracket isn't changing their ways, no matter how much common sense dictates they should. Which is why we all have professional reporting relationships, to help address our blind spots, for the good of the organization.
Personally I hope that more reporters start asking very pointed questions of Coach, to address the lack of common sense in some of these answers he's giving. If that provides some pressure to make some changes, I think that's a good thing for Duke basketball.
Interesting post BDW....Curious, what one question would you most like to ask K?
OFC
How would you suggest we address upperclass experience?
We continue to see more use of zone defenses and there have been notable changes to how we have traditionally overplayed passing lanes. How has K not adjusted?
Is your father still working?
You think it's a good thing for Duke basketball if reporters influence our coach?
Respectfully do not totally agree.Three phases to an effective man defense is stooping dribble penetration Effectively switching when you get beat then you have to have weak side rotations.We are improving in the first two phases but are getting killed in the third phase.This is due to inexperience and lack of recognition by young players.I am sure this is being pointed out by the coaching staff but it still takes game experience to get it down.Also it doesn’t help when 28 percent shooters hit shots when they are being knocked down.Both games we have lost had guys hitting shots that they normally don’t make
Topps I think you've mentioned you've coached before and its quite evident. I enjoy your explanations of technique. However I think what Mac may be saying (at least way I inferred it) is simply more "want-to" if you will on the defensive end. Show some pride, some eagerness and true will to lock down the other team.
Now OBVIOUSLY I am oversimplifying and I cant speak for Mac, and havent coached at an elite level like yourself.However I have watched enough Duke basketball to know this DUKE team and certainly last year' s dont "get after it" so to speak like the Duke teams of old...OFC
I don't see improvement yet. I've never been a basketball coach, but on my eye test, the results I'm seeing are no different than the BC game, which was no different from the games where we come back to win. We also got outrebounded in both of these losses. What are we giving up defensively, like 92-93 a game now? All this after practice time from that BC game to the Fsu game.
"Practice time" (lack thereof) is what the answer was (for poor D) when K addressed assembled media following BC game. He said it was priority and defensive defencies would be addressed. We saw it demonstrated against an injury riddled Evansville team, and since its faded once again to back burner. OFC
While we tend to attack and dictate the action on offense, we play defense on our heels for most of the game. One solution to our sad defense is to attack on both sides of the floor. We have 5 smaller guys in the rotation and and excess of big guys. We could pick up full court and dog ball handlers much more.
I know that would be tough playing two bigs at the same time, but we've got to find a way to make this lineup work for us. We can't play like other teams because we're not built like other teams. One thought I had was slowing things down and using the entire shot clock on offense. I know Tre wants to run, but everyone else is probably more suited for a half court set. It would be boring to watch, but we're getting killed sometimes changing ends with our two most efficient scorers having to run baseline to baseline.
I know that would be tough playing two bigs at the same time, but we've got to find a way to make this lineup work for us. We can't play like other teams because we're not built like other teams. One thought I had was slowing things down and using the entire shot clock on offense. I know Tre wants to run, but everyone else is probably more suited for a half court set. It would be boring to watch, but we're getting killed sometimes changing ends with our two most efficient scorers having to run baseline to baseline.
I like this strategy....No need to be in a hurry w/two bigs to feed like we have.....Feed the post, let the twin towers operate toward the hoop and/or relocate. Limits other team's possessions too....I think we could keep our own offensive adjusted rating quite consistent.
OFC
Again the part I disagree most with the effort part.Using the example of Bagley in a help side rotation he busted his butt to close out out on a three point shooter st the top of the key which left the basket wide open for a dunk.His responsibility was bucket protection..To me this was an error of judgement rather than effort.I singled this one out but have seen the same thing by numerous players this year. My hope is that by tournament time they will have have been in enough of these game time situations that they make the right decisions.I hope that I am not looking at this with my Duke colored glasses on.Using K”s analogy of a closed fist on defense right now we are hitting teams with an open hand rather than the fist
I'd address upperclass experience by playing guys like Chase enough to both get the experience and stick around long enough to play a bigger role. If an example is needed, head 8 miles down 15-501 and see how Luke Maye is contributing. He was ranked much lower than nearly everyone on our bench the past 5 years. At Duke he would have transferred by now.
We're playing largely the same D as we always have, especially problematic because we have 2 bigs on the floor at most times, which makes our approach an even worse fit. This D is the worst Duke has fielded in at least the last 20 years. Anyone who thinks an even younger team than recent vintages will "pick up rotations" between now and April is ignoring the past few years.
I think reporters serve a critical function of holding public figures and institutions accountable. My preference would be accountability through internal channels but that doesn't appear to be happening here.
IMO it's not as easy to get 18 year olds with NBA visions in their eyes to buy in defensively. The 2015 squad had guys who were mature beyond their years. Defense is about desire and pride. You have to want it.
Unfortunately I am not Gary 7 so I have not coached at an elite level.Shoot I don’t even have a Mafia to rub out anyone who disagrees with me
Playing guys who then stick around is kind of like saying you'll play guys who won't do that well now, in the present, for the sake of having them prepared for the future.
Playing "largely" the same D means some adjusting. I gave the example of playing more zone. The coaches are switching things up. When you have as much turnover as we've had of late, you start over.
It sounds like your preference is to get whatever you want to happen by any means possible. In this instance, you are willing to compromise K's control over the program he built.
I, like all Duke fans have spent way too much time debating why Duke plays such poor defense.
I will say, I've seen other supposedly good defensive teams (not Virginia, but Villanova, Xavier, etc.) that give up open 3s and layups occasionally as well. We're not looking for perfection, just improvement.
With today's depth of good players, it is inevitable that you run into teams that shoot lights out and I'm not sure you can stop that. Just slow them down a little.
I agree with I think Topps in saying that the lack of weak side help is a main culprit in Duke's inability to stop the pick and roll. There's always going to be a second or so that the "roller" is open and it's the help side that's supposed to cover that before jumping back to the corner or wing to stop the 3 point shot if the ball is rotated. I'm disappointed that Duke's guys don't pick that up better, just as I'm disappointed they turn their head on denial and get beat back door.
I thought this team would be a good defensive team because of the combination of long wings and mobile basket defenders. I still think it can become serviceable on defense. There's no reason AOC and Trent can't become above average defenders with their length and footwork and Duval should be elite.
So like everyone else I'm hoping for the best and look forward to the journey.
I will say, I've seen other supposedly good defensive teams (not Virginia, but Villanova, Xavier, etc.) that give up open 3s and layups occasionally as well. We're not looking for perfection, just improvement.
With today's depth of good players, it is inevitable that you run into teams that shoot lights out and I'm not sure you can stop that. Just slow them down a little.
I agree with I think Topps in saying that the lack of weak side help is a main culprit in Duke's inability to stop the pick and roll. There's always going to be a second or so that the "roller" is open and it's the help side that's supposed to cover that before jumping back to the corner or wing to stop the 3 point shot if the ball is rotated. I'm disappointed that Duke's guys don't pick that up better, just as I'm disappointed they turn their head on denial and get beat back door.
I thought this team would be a good defensive team because of the combination of long wings and mobile basket defenders. I still think it can become serviceable on defense. There's no reason AOC and Trent can't become above average defenders with their length and footwork and Duval should be elite.
So like everyone else I'm hoping for the best and look forward to the journey.
There's literally nothing you said that I agree with. I'll save us the waste of time and put you on ignore.
I know it sounds odd, but I think one of the primary problems for Duke defensively is an issue of personality. And by that I don't mean the will or desire. What I mean is the primary five guys in Duke's rotation are mostly all quiet guys by nature. There isn't a guy there like Nolan or Quinn who just fills a room with personality. Guys like Grayson, Trevon, Gary, and Wendell are generally quiet and unassuming off the floor. I think their genuine personal natures are kind of working against them on the floor. Perpetual communication is not in their personal wheelhouses.
Like I would want you to want me to...
Seriously? Grow up. Or go ahead and get your last, childish word in like always.
One of my favorite strategy books is Good Strategy Bad Strategy. I was re-reading it earlier today and came across this passage. It resonated and I think describes what's going on with our program.
“An organization’s greatest challenge may not be external threats or opportunities, but instead the effects of entropy and inertia."
<< I compare this to sticking with an approach that worked for so long but is simply out of date (inertia). And the last couple of years, I think we can all agree that there has been an increasing sense of entropy, of disorder. >>
"In such a situation, organizational renewal becomes a priority."
<< Fresh blood, new ideas. Perhaps a defensive coordinator?
But my strong impression is that Coach does not support an environment that welcomes new ideas and fresh faces. >>
"Transforming a complex organization is an intensely strategic challenge. Leaders must diagnose the causes and effects of entropy and inertia, create a sensible guiding policy for effecting change, and design a set of coherent actions designed to alter routines, culture, and the structure of power and influence.”
<< I would be surprised if a single one of these "steps" are being taken.>>
So that's my diagnosis, copied from a book. I'm reasonably confident that it describes what's going on with the program. The reason why I've brought up lines of reporting authority is because if Coach does not support an environment of organizational reflection and renewal, then someone needs to lead that change. The alternative, in my opinion, is accelerating levels of entropy both on and off the court.
“An organization’s greatest challenge may not be external threats or opportunities, but instead the effects of entropy and inertia."
<< I compare this to sticking with an approach that worked for so long but is simply out of date (inertia). And the last couple of years, I think we can all agree that there has been an increasing sense of entropy, of disorder. >>
"In such a situation, organizational renewal becomes a priority."
<< Fresh blood, new ideas. Perhaps a defensive coordinator?
But my strong impression is that Coach does not support an environment that welcomes new ideas and fresh faces. >>"Transforming a complex organization is an intensely strategic challenge. Leaders must diagnose the causes and effects of entropy and inertia, create a sensible guiding policy for effecting change, and design a set of coherent actions designed to alter routines, culture, and the structure of power and influence.”
<< I would be surprised if a single one of these "steps" are being taken.>>
So that's my diagnosis, copied from a book. I'm reasonably confident that it describes what's going on with the program. The reason why I've brought up lines of reporting authority is because if Coach does not support an environment of organizational reflection and renewal, then someone needs to lead that change. The alternative, in my opinion, is accelerating levels of entropy both on and off the court.
I’m a little disappointed my Buddy Ryan suggestion got absolutely no traction.
The last couple years? As in 2? We're talking about 2 years? 38th year at Duke, but we're talking about the last couple years? 2 years? The last couple of years? What are we talking about? 2 years. We're talking about 2 years.
Maaaaaaaaan. You need to go sit in the concussion tent for a bit, bruh. K's stint as the U.S. coach has resulted in all kinds of new ideas. As for fresh faces... the 2010 National Championship team, buoyed by 3 seniors and 2 juniors (but only 3 guards total, so K dialed back the defensive aggressiveness to save fouls and energy, and featuring a 4-man post rotation -- among the deepest Duke has had in many years -- but I digress...), had 3 assistant coaches: Wojo, CC, and Nate. The 2015 National Championship team, led by just one senior, also starring 3 OAD freshmen (the first time Duke ever had more than one OAD player, which included the most dominant post player in a decade -- who the offense was changed to feature, but for whom the defense had to be adjusted to protect and sometimes hide -- and the first true, effective, pass-first PG arguably since Chris Duhon's graduation in 2004, but I digress...), had 3 assistant coaches: Capel, Scheyer, and Nate (who had actually left that position for another role in the program to make room for Capel after the '10-'11 season, and stayed there for 2 years before moving back into an assistant coach's position, thus making him "new" in a way, too, but I digress...). Since then, Nolan Smith has been added to the staff in a special assistant's role. 8 seasons removed from the championship team they starred on, Scheyer (who just turned 30) and Nolan (29) are now on the coaching staff that has seen 100% turnover since they were players (including the aforementioned 2-year re-assignment for Nate, but I digress...).<< Fresh blood, new ideas. Perhaps a defensive coordinator?
To recap, we've implemented new ideas and we have new faces. And you need to go through the NFL's concussion protocol.
Better get an extension squeegee to get your eyebrows off the ceiling then. I just told you all about transformation we've seen. It didn't happen by accident or coincidence, so my guess would be that there was some diagnosis of c&e of entropy and inertia... and we saw a completely different team make-up and coaching faces on the national championship a mere two years ago than we did on the previous national championship just 5 years before that (which, incidentally, tied K's own record of the longest period between national championships at 9 years, but I digress...), so unless it was just dumb luck I'd guess the sensible and effective changes were the result of a sensible guiding policy... and that's led to actions different from how things have been run at different stages of K's 38 year career.
But you'd be surprised if a single one of those things is happening...
Put these on your reading list:
"The Inverse Correlation Between Knowledge and Confidence," '"The Comfort of Ignorant Bliss," (also known as the "Dunning-Kruger Effect," named for the two psychologists whose research led to it, but I digress...),
and these two quotations, which I'll paste in their entirety here: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science" (Darwin); and "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure" (Twain).
Good luck and happy reading!
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