I hear announcers (former college and pro baseball players) talk about how they've never seen anything quite like our hitting drills, and I hear them say we look like a high school team when we take the field. If you're recruiting and hitting drills are that much different than everyone else's, there are two possible conclusions to draw. Either you're an innovative genius, or you're doing it wrong. We're consistently in the bottom half of the SEC in runs scored. I'm afraid the most likely answer is the second one. This is why I would be completely OK with him being fired after only one truly bad season in the last 5 (he's really only had 1 truly good season in those years as well).
Here's my red flag re: Cohen.
- Thread starter patdog
- Start date
I don't think we should fire Cohen after this season
It was a dumpster fire season too... but I think he should stick around for a couple of reasons:
1) Would any good coach come to MSU if we got rid of a coach after one bad season only two years removed from the NC game? I don't think they would.
2) Cohen went to the extremes on recruiting for our stadium, Omaha's stadium, and the old style ball. He changed up what he was doing last year in recruiting and is continuing that trend this year. In fact, it's become pretty apparent that a lot of current players are going to be asked to leave after this season, considering how many prospects we have signed. Let's hope the MLB draft doesn't poach the top-end of our class too hard. A lot of people are going to counter with "why didn't it affect everyone else".... and that's because Cohen went to the extremes (which is squarely on Cohen's shoulders).
3) Back to recruiting.... this class could be the best class we've ever signed as a baseball program. If Cohen had developed a multi-year trend that proves he is in over his head, the recruiting class wouldn't do anything for me. But I still think Cohen is the right guy for the MSU job.
Anywho... I've been quiet on baseball since mid-March. I didn't like what I saw then and definitely don't like what I see now. But I still think Cohen is our guy.
If there is one red-flag for me on Cohen, it's the lack of impact freshman and rsFR under his watch. Outside of Gavin Collins and Johnathan Holder, who has ever come in under the current staff and immediately contributed? Maybe I'm not doing my research thorough enough, but it just seems like we have these highly touted guys come in and none of them produce early on.
It was a dumpster fire season too... but I think he should stick around for a couple of reasons:
1) Would any good coach come to MSU if we got rid of a coach after one bad season only two years removed from the NC game? I don't think they would.
2) Cohen went to the extremes on recruiting for our stadium, Omaha's stadium, and the old style ball. He changed up what he was doing last year in recruiting and is continuing that trend this year. In fact, it's become pretty apparent that a lot of current players are going to be asked to leave after this season, considering how many prospects we have signed. Let's hope the MLB draft doesn't poach the top-end of our class too hard. A lot of people are going to counter with "why didn't it affect everyone else".... and that's because Cohen went to the extremes (which is squarely on Cohen's shoulders).
3) Back to recruiting.... this class could be the best class we've ever signed as a baseball program. If Cohen had developed a multi-year trend that proves he is in over his head, the recruiting class wouldn't do anything for me. But I still think Cohen is the right guy for the MSU job.
Anywho... I've been quiet on baseball since mid-March. I didn't like what I saw then and definitely don't like what I see now. But I still think Cohen is our guy.
If there is one red-flag for me on Cohen, it's the lack of impact freshman and rsFR under his watch. Outside of Gavin Collins and Johnathan Holder, who has ever come in under the current staff and immediately contributed? Maybe I'm not doing my research thorough enough, but it just seems like we have these highly touted guys come in and none of them produce early on.
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I just do not
agree with this at all. How can you say that? In '11 we were tied for 2nd in the toughest division in college and went to a SR. In '12 we were tied for 2nd in the toughest division in college and went to a Regional. In '13 we finished 3rd in the toughest divisions (w the toughest schedule ever) and had our most successful post-season ever. In '14 we finished 3rd in the toughest division in college (while having our best conf record in 20 years, albeit a favorable schedule) and went to a Regional. This season has been a Charlie Foxtrot.
I just do not see how someone that is not a fan of LSU or USCarolina or Vanderbilt can say that the above only constitutes as 1 good season.
agree with this at all. How can you say that? In '11 we were tied for 2nd in the toughest division in college and went to a SR. In '12 we were tied for 2nd in the toughest division in college and went to a Regional. In '13 we finished 3rd in the toughest divisions (w the toughest schedule ever) and had our most successful post-season ever. In '14 we finished 3rd in the toughest division in college (while having our best conf record in 20 years, albeit a favorable schedule) and went to a Regional. This season has been a Charlie Foxtrot.
I just do not see how someone that is not a fan of LSU or USCarolina or Vanderbilt can say that the above only constitutes as 1 good season.
I'm still trying to figure out what Cohen means when he says he recruited for the new bats, a big DNF, and a big CWS stadium. So he's telling us that his first choice was to go after 5'10" guys who were sort of fast and sort of could play multiple positions? Every JUCO in America has 4-5 of those guys that are looking for an offer, and that is what we have been ending up with. I'm not really buying it as a valid approach/excuse.
Yes, he's changed his recruiting philosophy, but I'll start believing when next year's starting lineup isn't full of undersized JUCO defensive replacements.
Yes, he's changed his recruiting philosophy, but I'll start believing when next year's starting lineup isn't full of undersized JUCO defensive replacements.
for crying out loud...........
everybody knows we happened to get hot in '13. The SEC run in '12 was due to everybody saving their pitching. We have Austin Peay and injuries to GT ans USM to thank for 2011. Our 18-12 mark in '14? We didn't play anybody.
The way I see it, Cohen has yet to have a decent season. If you don't agree then you don't know crap about baseball.
everybody knows we happened to get hot in '13. The SEC run in '12 was due to everybody saving their pitching. We have Austin Peay and injuries to GT ans USM to thank for 2011. Our 18-12 mark in '14? We didn't play anybody.
The way I see it, Cohen has yet to have a decent season. If you don't agree then you don't know crap about baseball.
1 - Hell yes, there would be several good coaches who would love to take our job if we fired Cohen this year. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.
2 - Pretty much agree with this. I do think Cohen is going to make some of the changes he needs to make, and that includes getting rid of current players and assistant coaches.
3 - We supposedly had a good class coming in 2 years ago too, and that class, as a whole, has been slow to develop, at best. As have all of Cohen's classes offensively. I'm cautiously optimistic about this class, but we're going to need real production a lot quicker than Cohen's other classes have shown or it's just a question of whether we fire him this year or next year.
2 - Pretty much agree with this. I do think Cohen is going to make some of the changes he needs to make, and that includes getting rid of current players and assistant coaches.
3 - We supposedly had a good class coming in 2 years ago too, and that class, as a whole, has been slow to develop, at best. As have all of Cohen's classes offensively. I'm cautiously optimistic about this class, but we're going to need real production a lot quicker than Cohen's other classes have shown or it's just a question of whether we fire him this year or next year.
Completely agree with this.
When has any talking head said we look like a high school team? I've heard one announcer talk about how we do batting practice but his tone made it sound like he thought it was not a bad thing. But I've never heard an announcer say we look like a high school team.
This is such dumb logic. Any college or pro team that wins the WS or CWS got hot. Anytime you're playing and beating the best teams in the nation, you got hot. I don't know why some of our fans want to diminish what we accomplished 2 years ago.
Last year during. Can't remember his name, but he went to Auburn and played in the majors back in the 80s or so. He said that physically,we looked like a high school team out there. He's right.
I think you and I are going to disagree on #1 no matter what. I think we'd be able to find a solid coach, no doubt. But we're not going to get a top 10 or 15 coach from another school who has had success over the past 5 years.
That class 2 years ago was rated high by one of the services. The other services had it in the 20s, if I recall correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The difference in this class and that class 2 years ago is the number of guys projected in the top 10 rounds of the draft.
How the hell are we supposed to detect your sarcasm. It's not like we can see or hear you. Use ** next time.
You can't really disagree with that statement. Its amazing how small we are compared to most sec teams.
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I recognize the sarcasm. And you will never hear me say anything other than the 2013 team was a damn good baseball team and Cohen deserves 100% credit for it. That does give me some hope that he may get this turned around. But 2013 is the exception to his whole career here. The 2011 team was pretty average and got a very favorable draw in the regionals. He's had two terrible seasons, then 2 pretty average ones, 1 great one, 1 average one, and 1 terrible one. So, throw out the first 2 years and he's pretty much been average (considering our high expectations) with 1 very much above average year and 1 very much below average year.
We're not going to hire a proven top 10 or 15 coach if we have to fire Cohen, whether it's after 1 bad season, 2 bad seasons, or 3 bad seasons. Maybe we could if he retires after taking us to 2 straight CWS appearances.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this class. I don't follow baseball recruiting, just what the SPS (and now ED) recruiting "experts" say. But it does appear this class, in general, is higher rated than the 2011 class was. But we have been slow to develop offensive talent (I'm being generous) and that's going to have to change no matter how good the recruiting classes are.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this class. I don't follow baseball recruiting, just what the SPS (and now ED) recruiting "experts" say. But it does appear this class, in general, is higher rated than the 2011 class was. But we have been slow to develop offensive talent (I'm being generous) and that's going to have to change no matter how good the recruiting classes are.
So I guess the more things change the more they stay the same. I can remember these same comments when Ron Polk was the coach and you compared our teams physically to the bulked up players like LSU and others had during the old gorilla ball days. If fact we used to joke that Polk didn't want anyone bigger than he was on the team so he wouldn't be physically intimidated.
I don't understand why others can't see this. Cohen was fully committed to playing small ball offense with great pitching backed up by a solid defense. The last few years we've been near the bottom of the league in homeruns, scoring, and slugging %. At the same time we've been near the top in bunts, walks, and hit-by-pitch. It's obvious that our offensive strategy was to get guys on base and try to score 3 or 4 per game any way possible. I've been saying that it seems like Cohen depends on the other team screwing up for us to score (walks, errors). For 3 years that was good enough to have decent seasons because we backed it up with great pitching and good defense. And the one time we had a couple of good hitters it was enough to make the championship.
But this year our pitching fell apart - partially because a few of our best pitchers depended on movement that they don't get with the new balls. Our best returning pitcher was worthless. We're allowing more baserunners per game than in previous years, we're not striking out as many batters (more balls in play), and we're giving up more HRs. It all adds up to a lot more runs allowed.
Combine terrible pitching with an offensive strategy that doesn't take advantage of the new balls, and you end up with this abysmal season. It's on Cohen to get this turned around. He's got to completely rethink our hitting and pitching strategies. I don't think we'll see a dramatic turn around next year - but I do think he'll get it figured out eventually.
My last post on this utter cluster17 of a season.
People can talk about the bats, the balls, the ballpark, or whatever other excuse has been floating around out there. At the end of the day, though, good leaders do not let seasons like this happen. Notice I didn't say "great" leaders. I limited it to "good" because anybody that is even in the upper quartile of college baseball coaches would not let things get anywhere close to being this bad prior to making a change, and THAT is my red flag for Cohen.
This isn't basketball where a season can be turned completely upside down following a single transfer and a couple guys going pro. It takes years of poor recruiting, poor development, and/or poor evaluations to get this bad in baseball. People want to blame the equipment? It's on Cohen to adjust. People want to blame the recruits? It's on Cohen to recruit the right players. People want to blame technique? It's on Cohen to teach the ones that give us the best chance to win. This year was the culmination of a complete failure to do any of this, and that failure didn't suddenly happen over the summer. It's happened over the course of years which is completely disturbing to say the least.
I'm not on the Fire Cohen train at this time, but I'll reiterate one more time. Good leaders do not let seasons like this happen. They have foresight, they know what levers to pull in order to adjust, and they execute in a timely manner on those adjustments. Cohen did not. He's got one season to turn this ship around
People can talk about the bats, the balls, the ballpark, or whatever other excuse has been floating around out there. At the end of the day, though, good leaders do not let seasons like this happen. Notice I didn't say "great" leaders. I limited it to "good" because anybody that is even in the upper quartile of college baseball coaches would not let things get anywhere close to being this bad prior to making a change, and THAT is my red flag for Cohen.
This isn't basketball where a season can be turned completely upside down following a single transfer and a couple guys going pro. It takes years of poor recruiting, poor development, and/or poor evaluations to get this bad in baseball. People want to blame the equipment? It's on Cohen to adjust. People want to blame the recruits? It's on Cohen to recruit the right players. People want to blame technique? It's on Cohen to teach the ones that give us the best chance to win. This year was the culmination of a complete failure to do any of this, and that failure didn't suddenly happen over the summer. It's happened over the course of years which is completely disturbing to say the least.
I'm not on the Fire Cohen train at this time, but I'll reiterate one more time. Good leaders do not let seasons like this happen. They have foresight, they know what levers to pull in order to adjust, and they execute in a timely manner on those adjustments. Cohen did not. He's got one season to turn this ship around
Yikes! ..
Just had deja vu flashbacks to the thousands of times Coach 34 posted .. "Fire Stans .. there's great coaches ready, willing & able to step in and take us to the NCAAT"
Results .. Three long years in basketball wilderness.
At least Strick learned from that disaster.
Just had deja vu flashbacks to the thousands of times Coach 34 posted .. "Fire Stans .. there's great coaches ready, willing & able to step in and take us to the NCAAT"
Results .. Three long years in basketball wilderness.
At least Strick learned from that disaster.
John Savage
That's how idiotic this statement is. He's had 3 losing seasons at UCLA and 1 right after winning the CWS. He had just as bad a season at UCLA last season as Cohen is having this season. Look how their doing this season.. You guys sure do like to throw **** at the wall and hope it sticks. 1 bad season in the toughest baseball conference doesn't mean Cohen is a bad leader or forgot how to coach.
That's how idiotic this statement is. He's had 3 losing seasons at UCLA and 1 right after winning the CWS. He had just as bad a season at UCLA last season as Cohen is having this season. Look how their doing this season.. You guys sure do like to throw **** at the wall and hope it sticks. 1 bad season in the toughest baseball conference doesn't mean Cohen is a bad leader or forgot how to coach.
Ha. Didn't even think about that. I was actually one of the ones who kept telling him it's not going to be that easy. Turns out he was right though, just 3 LONG years later. I do think the MSU baseball job is a much more attractive job than the MSU basketball job is, though.
So you're comparing a team that almost literally lost every single player in the starting lineup to injury to the one that Cohen put together for this year? Yeah, perfect comparison chief
I realize that I made a blanket statement, but the bottom line is that there was absolutely nothing that John Savage could control about his team being completely decimated by injuries last year. Cohen, on the other hand, had it well within his power to prevent this season
I realize that I made a blanket statement, but the bottom line is that there was absolutely nothing that John Savage could control about his team being completely decimated by injuries last year. Cohen, on the other hand, had it well within his power to prevent this season
almost all their injuries happened
after they were already struggling. Their senior 1B hit .173 that season. Plus the guys that filled in for the guys injured before the season had pretty good seasons. You say Cohen could have prevented it but I doubt he could. You have one pitcher that was a sub 2 ERA jump to a 4 or 5 this season because of the ball change. Cohen had his team built a certain way, and the ball change was the opposite of what he built his team around. That would be like the NCAA saying you can't spread the field in football and everyone had to run the I formation. Mullen has built his team around the spread, so how do you think his offense would do if he had to run the I formation with 2 WR? Probably not very well.
after they were already struggling. Their senior 1B hit .173 that season. Plus the guys that filled in for the guys injured before the season had pretty good seasons. You say Cohen could have prevented it but I doubt he could. You have one pitcher that was a sub 2 ERA jump to a 4 or 5 this season because of the ball change. Cohen had his team built a certain way, and the ball change was the opposite of what he built his team around. That would be like the NCAA saying you can't spread the field in football and everyone had to run the I formation. Mullen has built his team around the spread, so how do you think his offense would do if he had to run the I formation with 2 WR? Probably not very well.
Off the deep end bro. Full retard, you have went. I recommend taking a day off, or thinking about football. Cohen will deal with baseball, and I will be here to tell you about it a year from now.
However, until then, you and your fantastic friends have your bragging rights for being 'right' about this season. I am just warning you not to rub it in too much, you will be looking stupid.
Now, flame on.
However, until then, you and your fantastic friends have your bragging rights for being 'right' about this season. I am just warning you not to rub it in too much, you will be looking stupid.
Now, flame on.
Most baseball people consider him an innovative genius, right up until this season. But we all know it is a 'what-have-you-done-for-me-today' society, so sh*t is easily forgotten.
http://www.championshipproductions.com/cgi-bin/champ/auth/2513/John-Cohen.html
Well... first off, I don't have anything to gloat about because I never called for this season to be awful. I just didn't bury my head in the sand six weeks ago when the writing was already on the wall.
If Cohen does clean this mess up and get us back to a regional next year, I'll be the first one here to congratulate you for keeping a cool head. Considering what we're dealing with at this point, though, it's going to take one hell of a turnaround. He's got one year
If Cohen does clean this mess up and get us back to a regional next year, I'll be the first one here to congratulate you for keeping a cool head. Considering what we're dealing with at this point, though, it's going to take one hell of a turnaround. He's got one year
College teams were notified about the flat seam balls in November, 2013. Considering the teams that Cohen had built and the players that he had recruited up to that point, I'll readily agree with you that the transition wouldn't have been easy and it would take some time. To be blaming a ball that every other team in the country is using for this horrid season is laughable to me, though.
Using your comparison, though, you're telling me that if Mullen were told today that college football would be moving to a mandatory I formation in 2017, we'd finish dead last in the SEC that season? Maybe we would, but I'd take the bet that says otherwise. He'd figure it out and deal with it like most other coaches
Using your comparison, though, you're telling me that if Mullen were told today that college football would be moving to a mandatory I formation in 2017, we'd finish dead last in the SEC that season? Maybe we would, but I'd take the bet that says otherwise. He'd figure it out and deal with it like most other coaches
Respectfully ..
throwing the BS flag on this statement. It DOES happen and it DOES happen to "good coaches."
In '13 we lost the CWS to a good John Savage coached UCLA team. One year removed from a national championship, UCLA suffered through a 'dumpster fire' season of 25-30-1 and 12-18 in the PAC12. Didn't make post season.
UCLA didn't panic and fire Savage. Instead, he came back and has UCLA as #1 in the PAC12, #2 in the country.
throwing the BS flag on this statement. It DOES happen and it DOES happen to "good coaches."
In '13 we lost the CWS to a good John Savage coached UCLA team. One year removed from a national championship, UCLA suffered through a 'dumpster fire' season of 25-30-1 and 12-18 in the PAC12. Didn't make post season.
UCLA didn't panic and fire Savage. Instead, he came back and has UCLA as #1 in the PAC12, #2 in the country.
The vast majority of baseball signing classes are in November. For your comparison to be valid, it would have to be the 2016 season for Mullen. Cohen has only one class on campus since the new ball was announced.
Of course I think Mullen would be OK because we aren't that great of a departure from power football right now. We are about as traditionally/power built as any spread team out here. We were as far sold out to the old ball as any team in the country in baseball.
I agree on the bold. Got to make a regional at minimum, too much talent not to. And yes, you are one of the more reasonable ones here.
I'm not blaming the ball for this horrid season
did it play a part? You damn right it did. You don't have a pitcher solid for 3 seasons and now gets crushed every time he pitches because he forgot how to pitch. I don't know how many teams were affected by the new ball, because I only keep up with one. I only have to look at Mitchell stats to know it took our most established pitcher and made him useless this season. If Mitchell was as solid as he has been in the past, I guarantee you this season wouldn't be this bad, and we would probably looking at making a regional. Mitchell's struggles affected the whole team, because it changed how we used our bullpen this season.
I don't keep up with baseball recruiting, but several people on here who do, say that Cohen adjusted his recruiting as soon as it was announced. Can't do more than that. If Mullen was told in June 2014 he had to change his offensive game plan for the 2016 season, I guarantee you there would be struggles. He wouldn't even have time to adjust his recruiting, because it's hard to land recruits if you haven't been on them for over a year. I'm just as mad at the next guy about this season, but I don't think Cohen should take all the blame much less be fired.
did it play a part? You damn right it did. You don't have a pitcher solid for 3 seasons and now gets crushed every time he pitches because he forgot how to pitch. I don't know how many teams were affected by the new ball, because I only keep up with one. I only have to look at Mitchell stats to know it took our most established pitcher and made him useless this season. If Mitchell was as solid as he has been in the past, I guarantee you this season wouldn't be this bad, and we would probably looking at making a regional. Mitchell's struggles affected the whole team, because it changed how we used our bullpen this season.
I don't keep up with baseball recruiting, but several people on here who do, say that Cohen adjusted his recruiting as soon as it was announced. Can't do more than that. If Mullen was told in June 2014 he had to change his offensive game plan for the 2016 season, I guarantee you there would be struggles. He wouldn't even have time to adjust his recruiting, because it's hard to land recruits if you haven't been on them for over a year. I'm just as mad at the next guy about this season, but I don't think Cohen should take all the blame much less be fired.
I think the issue is that people are taking my comments as saying that good coaches never have a down year, and if I had said that, I'd chalk it up to one too many glasses of bourbon and move on. That's not what I said, though. I posted that good leaders don't let seasons like this happen. They have down years all the time, sure, but this isn't a down year. It is an absolute dumpster fire and barring a minor miracle this weekend, we will end up dead last in the league. On top of that, most seem to be in agreement that there's going to be a significant overhaul within the program this offseason which is great I guess, but it makes me that much less confident that next year will be anything to write home about.
Hey, maybe we'll hire an amazing hitting coach, Cohen will quit screwing with lineups, and all the freshmen will be incredible next year. I'm sure as hell hoping that will be the case, but I'll believe it all when I see it next season.
As far as UCLA goes, I get that people keep bringing them up because their season was a disaster last year just like ours is this year. The problem, though, is that the only thing that is similar about the two seasons is the record itself.
Players drafted from the prior roster: UCLA 7 MSU 4
Signees drafted: UCLA 8 MSU 2?
Injuries: UCLA - Every fielding position with the exception of 1B and C was handled by a bench player or someone that was moved over due to injuries at some point in the season. MSU - Ok, we've had a couple but really?
My point of all this being that once again, there wasn't hell of a lot that Savage could have done about his team last year. Cohen, on the other hand, may have had some crappy luck here and there, but it's no comparison to what UCLA dealt with last year.
Hey, maybe we'll hire an amazing hitting coach, Cohen will quit screwing with lineups, and all the freshmen will be incredible next year. I'm sure as hell hoping that will be the case, but I'll believe it all when I see it next season.
As far as UCLA goes, I get that people keep bringing them up because their season was a disaster last year just like ours is this year. The problem, though, is that the only thing that is similar about the two seasons is the record itself.
Players drafted from the prior roster: UCLA 7 MSU 4
Signees drafted: UCLA 8 MSU 2?
Injuries: UCLA - Every fielding position with the exception of 1B and C was handled by a bench player or someone that was moved over due to injuries at some point in the season. MSU - Ok, we've had a couple but really?
My point of all this being that once again, there wasn't hell of a lot that Savage could have done about his team last year. Cohen, on the other hand, may have had some crappy luck here and there, but it's no comparison to what UCLA dealt with last year.
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