Zags have a tough test Thursday night when 7-15 Pacific comes to Spokane.
Gonzaga
- Thread starter USARMYWILDCAT
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They’re playing teams who are planning for the long haul. It’s like bragging that you beat UK in novermber when everyone knows UK isn’t playin for November. On the flip side those are huge games for Gonzaga, and they still lose them. Imagine Alabama beating this. I mean….
They’re a good team but they’re in a unique situation that shouldn’t lend itself to top seeds unless they can make arraignments to play quality competition late in the season.
And I don’t think it helps their case that they did well in the tournament for some years. If UK played BUY and San Diego we’d be healthy, rested, and no telling where we’d end up every year. Same for others.
They've had a cake walk all of those years. The best seed they've beaten in that run? A 4 seed. Last year the made the championship game by beating a 16, 8, 5, 6, and 11.
Wouldn’t make it thru SEC with less than 4-7 losses. Lol. Cats must be 2/3 times better than Zags. Right?
What seeds did the Cats play in 2018 and couldn’t make it to the FF.
Well, they have played in two of the previous four national championship games.
In the past it did but the past 5 years they have proven they can get it done. They blew their best shot at a title though.
Once you've played in multiple finals in the last four years to me the "battle tested" comment doesn't really fly all that much.
Oh well. Just something at some point I feel will be disproved.
Oh well. Just something at some point I feel will be disproved.
Doesn’t at all change the fact that they had them on their schedule, which was the point. The argument was that they try to play a schedule just to rack up wins. They can’t control their conference and the non conference games they schedule are very difficult. Did you really take the time to reply to something without looking back at what the argument was?
Or we can talk about the 1 seed, 4 seed, 2 seed and another 2 seed the cats beat in 2014 or the 4, 3, 4 and 2 they beat in 2012 to win title. They also beat a 1 and 2 in 2011 and also beat a 3 in 2015 and a 3 in 2019. And so on.
Ah ok, I see how I missed that. I thought listing Duke twice was including when they played in the tournament.
I think Gonzaga does a great job trying to do what it can with its schedule. I dont think they are ducking people. But regardless, the schedule is what it is, and as a whole, it's not very good.
Who here said they "try to play a schedule to rack up wins", though? I must have missed that. I think people are just saying that if you want to be seen as a top team, get a 1-seed, you really need to be playing in a power conference.
I don't know why people have such a tough time understanding this. Football drives the train for the power conference athletic departments. If you don't have football, you're not getting in. Not only does Gonzaga not have football, they also don't have a major media market.
The Big East? Great fit in terms of them not having football and being a small, religious school. Not so great in terms of travel, not only for basketball, but for all other sports as well. Their closest Big East rival would be Creighton, which is nearly 1400 miles away. In contrast, a trip to College Station for UK is 994 miles to play aTm, which is our longest SEC road trip. The AAC? It's 1600 miles to their closest road game in Wichita. No football, no media market and being a million miles away from the schools of the only conference they would really be a good fit in has doomed them.
They're good, but they don't deserve the red carpet rolled out for them every year by the media and selection committee.
You missed the point. Just because you get to play high seeds guarantees nothing.
Funny enough though.. Omaha is just as close to Spokane as it is to Storrs, CT.
I still would love to see it work somehow. I think if you could add Gonzaga and another Midwest team, you could divide it into east and west where Gonzaga maybe only has to make a few trips to the east coast, and vice versa.
Pipe dream, I know.
Obviously Rafters is more knowledgeable than the selection committee. Not sure I even had to say that.
What some are forgetting (conveniently) is that aside from Gonzagas two runs to the title games, they've largely flamed out early in the tournament.. example, those mid 2000 years. Lots of high seeds, lots of premature exits.
So aside from two specific years, it seems like a team that built a ranking off the backs of a weak WCC team.. that then runs into much harder competition in the tournament.. gets clipped.
Of course, it seems Mark Few has found a new level.. but I want to see what they do this year. If they flame out early, then yes the two-final4 having Gonzaga is being overrated by the pollsters.
So aside from two specific years, it seems like a team that built a ranking off the backs of a weak WCC team.. that then runs into much harder competition in the tournament.. gets clipped.
Of course, it seems Mark Few has found a new level.. but I want to see what they do this year. If they flame out early, then yes the two-final4 having Gonzaga is being overrated by the pollsters.
Why is it funny? DePaul is Creighton's closest BE rival. It's 468 miles. Marquette is 508 miles. Butler is 608 miles. Xavier is 719 miles. That's 4 conference games for Creighton that are substantially closer than Gonzaga. Even more pertinent, do you think Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, UConn, Providence and St Johns want to add a 2500+ mile trip to their schedule, not only for basketball but for other sports as well?
Article came out today from Ken Pomeroy that is fitting for this thread
A portion:
"Since the 2017 season, they've gone 39-11 against teams from the six best conferences — Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-12, Big East, ACC and SEC — with just six of those games being played on Gonzaga's home floor. (To be fair, just six of those games have been true road games as well. Most of these games have been played either in the NCAA Tournament, in-season tournaments, or other showcase games on neutral floors.)"
A portion:
"Since the 2017 season, they've gone 39-11 against teams from the six best conferences — Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-12, Big East, ACC and SEC — with just six of those games being played on Gonzaga's home floor. (To be fair, just six of those games have been true road games as well. Most of these games have been played either in the NCAA Tournament, in-season tournaments, or other showcase games on neutral floors.)"
11-4 wouldn’t win the SEC most years.
Beyond that, Kentucky has most definitely played 15 non-con games against good teams over four years AND has to go in conference.
Gonzaga should play at least 7-8 tough non-con games a year to get close to what the rest of the CBB elite has to go through.
No doubt that Gonzaga has ramped up since that time. But id like to see what that record is from 2000 to 2017.
I imagine Gonzaga over the next decade will be somewhere in between. Few has stepped it up, but I also think he's had some fortunate teams and recruiting recently, that might not get duplicated so easily. And as we've seen with UK and Duke, going all in on OAD recruiting has some big limitations. Chet is gone, 8th-year Nembhart is gone, Bolton is gone.. Hickman and Salis are still a ways off... but most importantly, Gonzaga won't have a single top40 recruit in 2022, as they're all taken. They have one 3-star player.
This is it for Gonzaga being the 3-loss or less team that walks to a 1-seed.. at least for now.
It is the same argument every year for the last 10 years or so. Eventually the Zags I think will win a national championship on the any given day mind set. While they play one or two good teams each year as one person noted, all of the other games are cupcakes in comparison. But since they look good doing it, they continue to get high seeds which helps them get further along in the tourney which will eventually help them win a championship. Not saying they are bad, just saying they get an easier path most years.
They also have the best winning percentige against the top 6 conferences of any team in the country since 2017 at 78%.
Haven't seen them play recently, but their weakness IMO is Nembhard. Against those 5 good teams he was Florida Nembhard, good one game, mediocre the next. If he does that in the tourney, they won't make FF.
People say this every year. They are legit. Look at their roster. They have a potential #1 pick in Holmgren, an All-American in Timme, and other talent around them.
People said this last year and they made the title game as an undefeated team.
Go check out Gonzaga's OOC schedule and quality wins the past 5 seasons, it's very impressive. Add in the fact that they've played in 2 title games the past 5 years, don't have a revolving door of players leaving early (ready or not) and I will have to admit that they've been better than us, by far, the past 5 seasons - they haven't had a terrible season the past 5 years either. Love my Cats, but the "Gonzaga's weak conference" stuff doesn't cut it.
People say this every year because they were a true mid-major, that made some noise in the regular season, yet flamed out early.. for YEARS.
I'm fine looking at the last few seasons and saying "yes Gonzaga has been legit since 2017".. but why can't we critique the 20 years before that? There's a reason so many people still doubt them.
Also, last year was 1. A shortened season and 2. There were no true road games as there were no fans. A team that plays in the WCC going undefeated on 32 games means little to me. Impressive as a team? Sure.
I'll tell you this, assuming nothing big changes like a decommit or Chet miraculously returning, I don't think Gonzaga will touch the top10 in metrics next year, and wouldn't be surprised if they flirted with dropping out of top25. And I'd be glad to revisit this and own it if I'm wrong.
No recruits. Two years of top talent leaving. Their only hope is going to be to kill it in the transfer protocol with several additions.
No recruits. Two years of top talent leaving. Their only hope is going to be to kill it in the transfer protocol with several additions.
I think Gonzaga is the team to beat this year. They will probably be my pick to win it all. It’s a shame they are in a waste of a conference where I don’t bother watching them for months. Don’t give me any non sense about San Fran and Saint Mary’s being better this year. They don’t have major conference talent. Also what are they getting out of tomorrows game against 7-16 Pacific? 33 point favorites(and probably too low). Don’t worry if you think 7-16 WCC teams aren’t exciting…they still have 7-18 Pepperdine to look forward to!
Things really changed for them 7 years ago. That’s when they started relying heavily on international guys and transfers. I think Few finally figured out they were a first weekend team unless he changed his strategy. 4 of their 5 top scorers that year were transfers or international players. They have since added big time recruits to mix in. Our team this year is actually a Gonzaga-ish team the past half dozen years. Transfers, really good college basketball players in their 4th and 5th years and a stud recruit mixed in.
We are definitely a what have you done for me lately society. Just as I wouldn’t judge Stoops on his first few years because he has significantly changed the program, I judge and view Gonzaga over the last half dozen years or so and not the early flame outs they had in earlier years. It’s just a completely different program.
With that said, Few has got to win the big one before people stop questioning their ability down the stretch and how much their weak conference effects them.
I agree with them pre 2017 not being as good but then again the majority of their good seeding has been post 17. Before that it's basically been a huge mixed bag.
Seeding 2000 to 2016.
10th
12th
6th
9th
2nd
3rd
3rd
10th
7th
4th
8th
11th
7th
1st
8th
2nd
11th
So I think most people didn't really see them as anything special until the past 5 years or so.
Seeding 2000 to 2016.
10th
12th
6th
9th
2nd
3rd
3rd
10th
7th
4th
8th
11th
7th
1st
8th
2nd
11th
So I think most people didn't really see them as anything special until the past 5 years or so.
And yeah I'm curious to see how next season goes as well. They've had the most efficient offense the past four seasons and with the personel they are going to have I can't see that happening again next season.
Chet had 20 and 17 against BYU. He is starting to put up huge numbers.Yeah the conference sucks but they are gonna be a tough out, and prob. make the FF again.
Kentucky has had 12 games scheduled against top 25 teams over the past four seasons in the non conference. They only got to play 11 of them and went 6-5 in those 11 games. Sure Kentucky played a much more difficult schedule overall and sure the rigors of a difficult conference schedule weigh on a team and I know Gonzaga does deal with that. But, I do think they play a difficult non conference and the rigors of that appear to be more than what UKs have been based only on rankings, and they ha e fared significantly better. I think UK is great and has been for sometime with the exception of last season, but, dismissing Gonzaga because of their weak schedule is silly.
And saying 11-4 wouldn’t win the SEC most years makes zero sense. If half the teams in the SEC were top 10 and all were top 25, I would guess few teams would go 11-4 in conference.