Giving a head coach another year or more.

[bulldogcountry1]

You’re an AD with a head coach (in any sport) who has grossly underperformed after inheriting a very good program. You want to give them more time because there are a lot of reasons not to fire them.

BUT players start leaving. At some point, the losses in talent become so significant that it would be near impossible for that head coach to succeed in the amount of time you are willing to give them. How much of the roster are you willing to see leave before you cry uncle and fire the head coach now to try to minimize the damage?

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

You definitely hang on to them for another year now. That way, you let them hang themselves out to dry when their talent level sinks to the average level. For reference see Moorhead, J. 2018 talent vs. Moorhead, J. 2019 talent.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

If you’re a head coach and I’m an AD, I want a very clear picture of why the players are leaving. What’s the vision of the program, how are you executing it, and what’s going on with the people who want no part of it? I’m going to want you to succeed, but fan expectations are real things, and if we won’t see results from your plan in a reasonable timeline, then it’s not going to work out.

If this is NMP, which it probably is, then give her another year. She had a bad year 1 at ODU followed by good years 2 and 3. If the team doesn’t start turning it around by the end of next season, she should be gone, but we should at least give her two years and see what the trajectory is

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

She is not going to have the team to turn it around. So the excuse will be “it is a rebuild due to the transfers”. That should not fly.

 

[ronpolk]

I just have a hard time imagining NMP is ever going to have more talent than she had this past season. If she continues to be the coach, what is the fix for the problem? You can’t answer that and say talent. We didn’t appear to have a culture problem until NMP showed up.

 

[kired]

This had to be the worst year ever to be a new coach. You couldn’t meet the team for what, a few months? Hard to take over a leadership position and earn respect from the players when you really can’t even interact with them. And it’s easy for the players to develop bad habits or poor attitudes when there’s no coach to answer to.


In hindsight hiring Johnnie would have been the best thing simply because of the relationships she already had.


I hate it for NMP, hard to say it’s all her fault when it’s been such an unusual 12 months. But at this point I don’t see how she recovers and rebuilds this team. You almost have to start over fresh. But either way it’s going to be a long time before we see WBB anywhere near the level is was under Vic.

 

[ronpolk]

This had to be the worst year ever to be a new coach. You couldn’t meet the team for what, a few months? Hard to take over a leadership position and earn respect from the players when you really can’t even interact with them. And it’s easy for the players to develop bad habits or poor attitudes when there’s no coach to answer to.


In hindsight hiring Johnnie would have been the best thing simply because of the relationships she already had.


I hate it for NMP, hard to say it’s all her fault when it’s been such an unusual 12 months. But at this point I don’t see how she recovers and rebuilds this team. You almost have to start over fresh. But either way it’s going to be a long time before we see WBB anywhere near the level is was under Vic.

I agree... very difficult year to be a new head coach. But the team got worse as the year progressed.

 

[Apoplectic_Objurgator]

Give her another year. Talent or no talent The team’s presence on the floor will tell you whether she gets another year. If the team looks like they dgaf like they did this year then cut her at eoy

 

[DAWG61]

Give her next year to see what she does with all the new players. Leach had a bunch of players leave too. It's rare a new coach holds the entire roster given to them together their first year. Lemons may be the exception.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Leach did have players leave but percentage wise not nearly so bad. But still in my opinion you simply can not rationally fire her after one year. I mean I doubt it improves but still you just hired her and it was a messed up year. It just seems like to me everybody quit. Thats pretty sketchy if you can't motivate your players to put forth good effort.

 

[kired]

But the team got worse as the year progressed.

I think that's to be expected if a head coach starts off on the wrong foot. There's always going to be conflicts between players and a new coach. We saw the same thing with Leach - things that probably would have gotten worked out one way or another during the spring became very obvious problems during the season. Difference is in football you can afford to cut a few people loose. In basketball most teams only have about 7 or 8 players they depend on for 90% of their minutes. You cut 2 or 3 of those loose during the season and soon you're depending on a benchwarmer to give you legit minutes.

Just really sucks for our WBB program, and unless she's some kind of awesome recruiter - I don't see any way she gets this fixed quick.

 

[thekimmer]

Here is my more circumspect take on NMP....

If you’re a head coach and I’m an AD, I want a very clear picture of why the players are leaving. What’s the vision of the program, how are you executing it, and what’s going on with the people who want no part of it? I’m going to want you to succeed, but fan expectations are real things, and if we won’t see results from your plan in a reasonable timeline, then it’s not going to work out.

If this is NMP, which it probably is, then give her another year. She had a bad year 1 at ODU followed by good years 2 and 3. If the team doesn’t start turning it around by the end of next season, she should be gone, but we should at least give her two years and see what the trajectory is

Gut instinct in the moment was get rid of her if she doesn't have us back near the top next season. The reality however is this. The program that Vic built is gone. There is nothing left to build on and we are starting over. Whoever is the coach now will be starting over. Yes, it's NMP's fault but now what? It makes sense to see if she really can rebuild us to where we were in her mold in the off chance that she really does need to get her players in here to be successful I think you have to judge her performance next year by that standard. I still think to keep her job she must show significant improvement but I think it might need to be more in the realm of effort, competitiveness and potential more so than getting a 2 or 3 seed in the tournament.

 

[dog12]

If you’re a head coach and I’m an AD, I want a very clear picture of why the players are leaving. What’s the vision of the program, how are you executing it, and what’s going on with the people who want no part of it? I’m going to want you to succeed, but fan expectations are real things, and if we won’t see results from your plan in a reasonable timeline, then it’s not going to work out.

If this is NMP, which it probably is, then give her another year. She had a bad year 1 at ODU followed by good years 2 and 3. If the team doesn’t start turning it around by the end of next season, she should be gone, but we should at least give her two years and see what the trajectory is

Agree.

Also, I'd talk to a few players to get their perspective too.

Finally, anytime a player of any sport leaves our school via transfer, I'd like to interview that player before he/she leaves, if possible.

 

[maroonmania]

In hindsight hiring Johnnie would have been the best thing simply because of the relationships she already had.

I 100% agree on this and thought exactly this at the time Vic left. Letting JH take over the program would have been the best option because of the continuity with the culture Vic had built and because of the existing relationship JH already had with the players. This aspect of things was especially true because of the COVID environment the Head Coach transition occurred in. JH already knew all the players well and the players knew her. NMP having to start from scratch with these players over zoom calls was a really big disadvantage to other programs who didn't have changes with their coaching staffs during the lockdown. Sometimes I feel like Cohen can't see the forest for the trees on these coaching hires. Only exception to this would have been if you could have gotten a true, big time HC hire that was willing to come in and lead the program. NMP was definitely not that. Even with a couple of pretty good years at ODU she never even got to coach one game in the NCAA tournament with them.

 

[maroonmania]

Agree.

Also, I'd talk to a few players to get their perspective too.

Finally, anytime a player of any sport leaves our school via transfer, I'd like to interview that player before he/she leaves, if possible.

I certainly would hope we do that at some level. Even when an employee takes another job most all companies have an exit interview to get the perspective of the departing employee.

 

[Shmuley]

Every time I see this thread I read, "Giving head ..."

 

[Hanmudog]

At this point I feel like we have no choice but to give NMP another year. What coach worth a crap is going to want to come into our situation now? Hell we don't even have enough players for a scrimmage.

I think we witnessed history this past season with the worst coaching job ever shat forth since Naismith nailed up his first peach basket. Unfortunately trying to hire a new coach now would be like trying to sell a house that is currently engulfed in flames.

 

[The Peeper]

If Cohen didn't have a sit down w/ her when the team started giving up after the first of the year then he is softer than I already think he is. We are stuck w/ her for one more season. He has to demand an answer NOW to what the problem is and what her plan is to reverse it and I'm not talking just "coach speak" answers like she gives in post game press conferences, real answers. I don't give a rats arse if they all leave, if there is the same amount or lack thereof effort we saw this year w/ whoever she trots out there next year then she has to go after next season and she should resign if that's the case

 

[maroonmania]

At this point I feel like we have no choice but to give NMP another year. What coach worth a crap is going to want to come into our situation now? Hell we don't even have enough players for a scrimmage.

I think we witnessed history this past season with the worst coaching job ever shat forth since Naismith nailed up his first peach basket. Unfortunately trying to hire a new coach now would be like trying to sell a house that is currently engulfed in flames.

Yep, in for a penny in for a pound at this point especially given the current social climate. And next year her results will essentially have to be judged with what the potential is of the roster she ends up with. Going to be hard to demand she produce a high seed team in the NCAA tournament if she ends up with a total rebuild of the roster.

 

[Cooterpoot]

So far, we haven't lost any talent in WBB. None of those leaving were very good. Might have depth issues but we haven't lost talent.

 

[Go Budaw]

Gut instinct in the moment was get rid of her if she doesn't have us back near the top next season. The reality however is this. The program that Vic built is gone. There is nothing left to build on and we are starting over. Whoever is the coach now will be starting over. Yes, it's NMP's fault but now what? It makes sense to see if she really can rebuild us to where we were in her mold in the off chance that she really does need to get her players in here to be successful I think you have to judge her performance next year by that standard. I still think to keep her job she must show significant improvement but I think it might need to be more in the realm of effort, competitiveness and potential more so than getting a 2 or 3 seed in the tournament.

Vic’s program was gone the moment he left. NMP didn’t inherit a Top 10 WBB program, because there is no such thing. Yes, she still sucks and yes she should still probably be fired sometime this year barring a drastic turnaround next season. But let’s not act like she inherited a Corvette and ran it off a cliff. WBB programs are ALWAYS a 100% product of who the coach is and how good they are.

The truth is, if we made a hire that had us in the Sweet 16 this year, or even one that would have hosted the first 2 rounds in a non-COVID year but got upset in the first round or two, that would have been a 100% grand slam home run of a hire given the landscape of women’s basketball in general...but you would still have people bitching that whoever that was had squandered some awesome roster and that the program was headed to hell in a hand basket.

 

[PirateDawg]

I agree but in fairness to Cohen

We might be having this conversation about her right now too. We will never know . I'm willing to give NMP the benefit of a doubt simply because everything was screwy the last year. Let's give her next season to see if we see a significant up tick in the teams performance. This was her first year coaching in the toughest WBB league in the country. I'm sure she learned a lot and will adjust during the off season. It was no different for Leach coming in and installing a completely different offense. Many on here have already written Leach off as well. She came in with excellent credentials as a head coach. Usually that leads to success.

I 100% agree on this and thought exactly this at the time Vic left. Letting JH take over the program would have been the best option because of the continuity with the culture Vic had built and because of the existing relationship JH already had with the players. This aspect of things was especially true because of the COVID environment the Head Coach transition occurred in. JH already knew all the players well and the players knew her. NMP having to start from scratch with these players over zoom calls was a really big disadvantage to other programs who didn't have changes with their coaching staffs during the lockdown. Sometimes I feel like Cohen can't see the forest for the trees on these coaching hires. Only exception to this would have been if you could have gotten a true, big time HC hire that was willing to come in and lead the program. NMP was definitely not that. Even with a couple of pretty good years at ODU she never even got to coach one game in the NCAA tournament with them.

 

[maroonmania]

Totally agree.

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

Yep, in for a penny in for a pound at this point especially given the current social climate. And next year her results will essentially have to be judged with what the potential is of the roster she ends up with. Going to be hard to demand she produce a high seed team in the NCAA tournament if she ends up with a total rebuild of the roster.

Are you suggesting we pay her pennies on the pound?**** I could live with that and forget about WBB and let Ole Miss have women’s sports in Mississippi.****

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Vic’s program was gone the moment he left. NMP didn’t inherit a Top 10 WBB program, because there is no such thing. Yes, she still sucks and yes she should still probably be fired sometime this year barring a drastic turnaround next season. But let’s not act like she inherited a Corvette and ran it off a cliff. WBB programs are ALWAYS a 100% product of who the coach is and how good they are.

The truth is, if we made a hire that had us in the Sweet 16 this year, or even one that would have hosted the first 2 rounds in a non-COVID year but got upset in the first round or two, that would have been a 100% grand slam home run of a hire given the landscape of women’s basketball in general...but you would still have people bitching that whoever that was had squandered some awesome roster and that the program was headed to hell in a hand basket.

I agree somewhat with your take but I think our talent level was better than just sweet sixteen and out. We beat Georgia early when they still remembered their own coaching and Georgia was in the conference finals.

At worst we should have been somewhere in the top 8 of our conference and in the top 25.

I'm betting Dawn Staley is supporting her knowing as long as nothing changes, Dawn will rule the SEC for years to come.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Are you suggesting we pay her pennies on the pound?**** I could live with that and forget about WBB and let Ole Miss have women’s sports in Mississippi.****

Ole Miss already swept us in Softball this year.. WBB at MSU is kaput.... mission accomplished

 

[Go Budaw]

I agree somewhat with your take but I think our talent level was better than just sweet sixteen and out. We beat Georgia early when they still remembered their own coaching and Georgia was in the conference finals.

At worst we should have been somewhere in the top 8 of our conference and in the top 25.

I'm betting Dawn Staley is supporting her knowing as long as nothing changes, Dawn will rule the SEC for years to come.

I can respect that. Don’t really know if we could be the 8th best SEC team and still be Top 25, but either way both of those things individually were reasonable goals, and we came nowhere close on either one. No question that we 17ed up royally.

 

[Reunion Dog]

Seems like Vic did pretty damn good with a new team this year...

You apologists for Rick Ray mccray & Cohen are a damn joke. It's folks like you is why State will never be any better because you except losing & ALWAYS make excuses...