Gio non-first down and penalty

[sherrane]

Isn't the rule the ground can't cause a fumble? I think it was a first down unless they changed the rules.

It was a blown call, but the ground CAN cause a fumble if the runner is not down. A runner is not down until a body part other than a foot or hand touches the ground. They had to determine if Gio's forearm was down before the ball was dislodged after the back of his hand hit the ground. If Gio lost control of the ball when the back of his hand hit the ground while his forearm was still in the air, it was a fumble. His forearm was clearly down in my opinion. Their inability to determine that was the reason why "the play stands as call" rather than CONFIRMED or OVERRULED.

 

[LETSGORU91_]

We then had to punt. we pinned them deep. They punted to us, And we got the ball almost exactly where Gio got the ball when he dove, at the 25

So it did not hurt us as bad as it seemed, other then take a few minutes off the clock in a tie game

Momentum of keeping the offense out there, MSU defense staying on the field and scratching their heads as to how Rutgers is beating them, and the time loss. That call hurt. Gio's forearm appeared to be on the turf prior to the ball being loose. Refs botched the call, then tacked on 15 yards. Plus, the other blown calls by the refs. An inept offense coupled with a B1G RU screw doomed our Knights. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

 

[wheezer]

so, if Gio had not been called for the penalty, it would have been 4th and about 1....do we still kick the field goal, or do we gamble for the first down?

 

[BlockR]

so, if Gio had not been called for the penalty, it would have been 4th and about 1....do we still kick the field goal, or do we gamble for the first down?

Ash would have called a timeout..that we know for certain.

 

[wheezer]

Momentum of keeping the offense out there, MSU defense staying on the field and scratching their heads as to how Rutgers is beating them, and the time loss. That call hurt. Gio's forearm appeared to be on the turf prior to the ball being loose. Refs botched the call, then tacked on 15 yards. Plus, the other blown calls by the refs. An inept offense coupled with a B1G RU screw doomed our Knights. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

end result, without the penalty, and figuring they move the "fumble" back the yard, was 4th and about one....best guess is we kick the field goal right then and there

 

[Caliknight]

That moment for me was the punt that landed on the one yard line. I said, unbelievable as it sounds, that punt just lost us the game

It was the kick off for me. It’s harsh to say, but winners win. The opposite is true also.

 

[LETSGORU91_]

end result, without the penalty, and figuring they move the "fumble" back the yard, was 4th and about one....best guess is we kick the field goal right then and there

Absolutely...the 15 yard penalty is a true head scratcher.

 

[RUnTeX]

His forearm was clearly down in my opinion. Their inability to determine that was the reason why "the play stands as call" rather than CONFIRMED or OVERRULED.

Yeah, I thought the forearm was pretty close to being all the way down if not completely down. Has the ball started to loosen from his hand upon contact with the ground as his wrist bends along with his forearm falling to the ground and by the time the elbow hits the ground? Maybe not quite.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

This is a great explanation. For those still not convinced, the beginning of the linked clip shows the most famous time it happened.

yeah--

whatever.........

 

[krup]

yeah--

whatever.........

Do you even do reading comprehension?

My post was part of a discussion over the general idea of whether the ground can cause a fumble or not. I didn't chime in either way on the specific Rutgers play.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

Do you even do reading comprehension?

My post was part of a discussion over the general idea of whether the ground can cause a fumble or not. I didn't chime in either way on the specific Rutgers play.

take a stand.........

 

[krup]

take a stand.........

Next time just stand aside and let the adults talk if you are incapable of adding to the discussion.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

So let me understand what we are arguing here.

A) Gio says nothing and keeps his composure and it's 4th and less than 1, on a tremendous effort play that got the entire roster excited.....and he probably gets the 1st down on a QB sneak.

B) Ash or McNulty say nothing to the QB and almost everyone defends the turnover instead of understanding the call on the field was correct (even though people take the announcers as referees when many don't know the rulebook).

C) The play didn't cost RU the game but just because we forced a 3 and out and got the leading FG, doesn't mean we couldn't have continued the drive for a FG or TD and then forced another 3 and out....you essentially had a turnover with no points.

If the play was a 4th down, then i would have understood the frustration but if it was 4th down and you get an unsportsmanlike call, MSU probably starts their next drive almost at their own 45, which is practically midfield. In a tight game with 2 offenses struggling offenses, its very tough when you're a huge underdog on the road.

 

[scarletcrew]

The call could of gone either way. That I can accept.

But I will never accept the penalty on Gio when he was nowhere near the refs and could not of said anything that is not said a hundred times a game in every game played in America.

You can hear what he says.
That's a first down
That's a first down
That's an effing first down

Then you hear whistles being blown and the crowd yells (assuming because the ref throws a flag when he blows the whistle).

Obviously the refs were not from NJ because that is normal conversation around here. I don't think that people who live in NJ realize that the F bomb isn't used so frequently in other parts of the country.

 

[robcac26]

It was a blown call, but the ground CAN cause a fumble if the runner is not down. A runner is not down until a body part other than a foot or hand touches the ground. They had to determine if Gio's forearm was down before the ball was dislodged after the back of his hand hit the ground. If Gio lost control of the ball when the back of his hand hit the ground while his forearm was still in the air, it was a fumble. His forearm was clearly down in my opinion. Their inability to determine that was the reason why "the play stands as call" rather than CONFIRMED or OVERRULED.

Finally someone capable of analyzing this correctly. They must have determined that he lost control of the ball in the split second between his hand touching the ground and his forearm. On top of this, it always makes me laugh when fans say an unsportsmanlike conduct shouldn't have been called when they don't even know what the player said. It definitely seemed likely that he said something that warranted the call. I thought his arm was down, but "the ground can't cause a fumble" isn't relevant here.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I thought it was a terrible call until they showed a different angle, from across the field. From that angle, it seemed pretty clear that where the ball touched down on the field was short of the actual first down marker.

The ball was touched down on top of the digitally displayed yellow line on TV. Which is what threw me off and made me think it was a horrible call by the officials.

But when they showed the other angle, it looked like the yellow virtual line was also short of where the first down marker was. They reviewed it for a while. So I would have to conclude that, given the long review, they probably make the correct call.

A more favorable spot would've helped for sure. But we mostly haven't had the calls going our way this season. We haven't had that kind of luck. And they might've reviewed it and changed the call anyway.

You cannot trust angled shots from across the field.. the yellow line is better. A zoom lens would exaggerate distances involved... you would need a camera on the line to make exactly shooting straight across.. the typical across the field camera is always at an angle.

It was a horrible call.

The ground cannot cause a fumble and even if you believe it can if the runnier is not "down", that ball bounced straight up then hit the ground out of bounds.. on the line-to-make and then rolled backwards. Refs got it wrong twice.

 

[willisneverrana43]

. . . The ground cannot cause a fumble and even if you believe it can . . . .

You should realize that this isn’t a matter of belief.

 

[sherrane]

You cannot trust angled shots from across the field.. the yellow line is better. A zoom lens would exaggerate distances involved... you would need a camera on the line to make exactly shooting straight across.. the typical across the field camera is always at an angle.

It was a horrible call.

The ground cannot cause a fumble and even if you believe it can if the runnier is not "down", that ball bounced straight up then hit the ground out of bounds.. on the line-to-make and then rolled backwards. Refs got it wrong twice.

I completely agree with your analysis regarding how deceptive angled shots can be.

The ground can absolutely cause a fumble. "The ground can't cause a fumble" is a generalization, not a rule. One example of this happening was in the NFC Championship Game in 1998 when Falcons reserve RB Harold Green tripped himself, went to the ground, lost control of the ball after hitting the ground, and the Vikings recovered (with 1:08 remaining in the 1st quarter). Because he wasn't down by contact, the ground DID cause this fumble (Go to the 24:30 mark and see how Summerall and Madden made the same mistake you are making). He would have been down in college (and the announcer would say, "The ground can't cause a fumble") on this play. Another occasion I recall was with former Virginia Tech RB Ken Oxendine when he played with the Falcons. He used his ball hand to try to keep himself from going down after being hit. The ball came free when the back of his hand hit the ground and because no other body part other than his feet was in contact with the ground, the ball was correctly ruled as a fumble. This is similar to how the referees ruled with Gio. They apparently ruled his hand hit the ground first and was losing possession upon contact and that happened before his forearm touched the ground.

 

[bigbirdru]

After seeing it again on kratchs film review, his elbow is clearly down with the ball. He ground/fumble rule doesn’t matter. His elbow is down. The video of the fumble someone posted in this thread is not the same as what happened here.

 

[rudad02]

What you saw today was the B1G protecting their blue bloods. Can't have lowly Rutgers pull a shocker and upset the applecart. The media and other conferences would mock the B1G for allowing this to happen.

Absolutely CORRECT!

 

[gef21]

Kid needs to keep his mouth shut either way.

 

[cubuffsdoug_rivals]

Kid needs to keep his mouth shut either way.

You do realize football is an emotional sport? Sometimes it can get the best of you when you continually see one side being favored over the other.

 

[wheezer]

the old adage that the ground cannot cause a fumble is 99% accurate.

the 1% exception is, if the ball is the first thing to touch the ground..... here, maybe Gio reached out and put the ball on the ground, still holding it, but no part of Gio hit the ground..... in this case, it might be considered a fumble.

problem is, you rarely see this, so it seems wrong to so many, who have heard and fully believe the saying.

my belief is that this play itself did not affect the
winning and losing, since we held Mich st
and got the ball almost exactly where that
play ended...we had a first and ten, right there,
just minutes later.....

 

[gef21]

You do realize football is an emotional sport? Sometimes it can get the best of you when you continually see one side being favored over the other.

Yes I do. Have been on the side line most of my life as a player and a coach. And I have had kids say things to coaches. I have yanked a kid from a college game for not keeping his cool.

My job to talk to the refs not yours.

 

[albanyknight]

how do you know what he said?

I don't. But watching the kid for four years and how he conducted himself and how respected he was by his teammates, what do you think the chances are that he said something so over the top that players don't say a hundred times a game?

 

[willisneverrana43]

One thing we do know: the chances of guessing right that he said something that deserved a flag went up significantly the moment the ref threw the flag. The goobly gook about knowing him, when you don't, aside. Even if we did, players who are respected by their teammates and players who are not say things that draw flags every day--every day--in sports. These arguments are silly post-hoc justifications because the refs threw a flag against the team that you root for, and suddenly your team is undeniably peopled with nothing but Abraham Lincolns and Ms. Manners who would never say anything worthy of a penalty. Ok. Move on.

 

[RU848789]

After seeing it again on kratchs film review, his elbow is clearly down with the ball. He ground/fumble rule doesn’t matter. His elbow is down. The video of the fumble someone posted in this thread is not the same as what happened here.

I looked at that play over and over and I agree that Gio was past the line to gain when the ball hit the ground, but I thought the ball was starting to come loose before his forearm hit the ground, meaning it was a fumble. The next question would be where the ball crossed the plane on its way out of bounds (I believe that's where the ball gets spotted on a fumble out of bounds) and I thought it would've been about halfway between where the fumble occurred and where it bounced, out of bounds.

That means it would've been incredibly close to the first down line, as it looked like it bounced just short of the line, but I don't recall a great angle on where the ball would've crossed the out of bounds line prior to bouncing out of bounds. Hard to reverse the call on the field in this case, IMO. And Gio just needs to not drop an F-bomb there.

I assume we would've gone for the half a yard to gain, rather than a 42 yard FG in the rain. It might not look like a big play, but if we had made the first down and then either a TD or FG, it would've changed the complexion of the game. And keep in mind that if we made that first down, another 2+ minutes likely come off the game clock, even if we don't get another first down, as we likely run at least 2 of those 3 next plays. Of course, if we only gained a few yards on the next set of downs, we easily could've missed a 35-40 yard FG and then MSU gets the ball at the 20 and not inside its 10.

https://www.nj.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/11/2ac8b52b051461/rutgersmichigan-state-film-rev.html

 

[gef21]

I don't. But watching the kid for four years and how he conducted himself and how respected he was by his teammates, what do you think the chances are that he said something so over the top that players don't say a hundred times a game?

He cursed at the ref. Heard it clear as day on the radio because the refs mike was on. Can not direct an F bomb at an official.

 

[cubuffsdoug_rivals]

He cursed at the ref. Heard it clear as day on the radio because the refs mike was on. Can not direct an F bomb at an official.

I've said a lot worse to the ref during a game. Usually, the ref will give you a warning before they hit you with a penalty. It's an emotional game, so people occasionally fly off the handle. A good ref does a better job of managing the situation like going to the HC to address the situation before hitting one team with a game-changing penalty.

 

[gef21]

I've said a lot worse to the ref during a game. Usually, the ref will give you a warning before they hit you with a penalty. It's an emotional game, so people occasionally fly off the handle. A good ref does a better job of managing the situation like going to the HC to address the situation before hitting one team with a game-changing penalty.

I am sure they let tons of cursing go, but direct cursing at a ref, that got sent out over his microphone, is stupid.

And he needs to stay disciplined. He lost his cool as a senior and it cost the team. No matter how the ref could or could not of handled the situation Gio screwed up and lost his cool. No matter how angry I would have been at the ref for throwing the flag I would have been more mad at my player. I have been in that situation and won and lost games because of kids keeping or not keeping their cool.

Unacceptable from a senior captain.

 

[scarletcrew]

He cursed at the ref. Heard it clear as day on the radio because the refs mike was on. Can not direct an F bomb at an official.

He said "That's a first down, that's a first down, that's an effing first down."

It wasn't a great decision but I think a lot of refs would have let that go or given him a warning to keep his mouth shut. Seems Gio has picked up some colorful NJ lingo.

 

[cubuffsdoug_rivals]

I am sure they let tons of cursing go, but direct cursing at a ref, that got sent out over his microphone, is stupid.

And he needs to stay disciplined. He lost his cool as a senior and it cost the team. No matter how the ref could or could not of handled the situation Gio screwed up and lost his cool. No matter how angry I would have been at the ref for throwing the flag I would have been more mad at my player. I have been in that situation and won and lost games because of kids keeping or not keeping their cool.

Unacceptable from a senior captain.

As long you don't attack the ref personally they give you some room to be colorful. Hell, Ash picked up a penalty a few weeks ago for expressing himself. You can't be involved in this game and be a mute. A lot of officials are guilty of allowing personal feelings impact decisions too.

 

[Knight Shift]

take a stand.........

Krup likes to attack people for reading comprehension and lodge other attacks when he can't counter the facts of a post.

 

[Knight Shift]

yeah--

whatever.........

Nice job, Zapruder.

 

[gef21]

As long you don't attack the ref personally they give you some room to be colorful. Hell, Ash picked up a penalty a few weeks ago for expressing himself. You can't be involved in this game and be a mute. A lot of officials are guilty of allowing personal feelings impact decisions too.

Cant give refs the opportunity to cost a team a game. I have had many flags thrown on me, and that is my job as a coach.

Unacceptable for a player to get one for talking to a ref. At any level.

 

[Knight Shift]

Cant give refs the opportunity to cost a team a game. I have had many flags thrown on me, and that is my job as a coach.

Unacceptable for a player to get one for talking to a ref. At any level.

I generally agree with you. However, in this instance, Gio should get a pass. The guy was an exemplary team player the entire year. This was HIS game. You could tell he was a man possessed and on a mission. He let his emotions get the best of him. Happens to good people all the time. And man was he hurting at the end of the game. Felt really bad for the guy.

 

[willisneverrana43]

So before throwing the flag, the ref should have evaluated Rescigno’s year long performance (mostly from the bench, no less), determined that Rescigno was the only guy playing hard and that this was RESCIGNO’S game, and then not thrown the flag?

Listen: great effort by Rescigno, unfortunate that the ball came loose and went backward, good call by refs, understandable enough but still dumb reaction by Rescigno, and a fairly predictable flag. Fortunately, RU got a fairly quick second chance but didn’t convert. That’s really all there is to it.

 

[huskersalways]

As long you don't attack the ref personally they give you some room to be colorful. Hell, Ash picked up a penalty a few weeks ago for expressing himself. You can't be involved in this game and be a mute. A lot of officials are guilty of allowing personal feelings impact decisions too.

I agree with this and I know some officials can get caught up in the game just like the players. I’ve done several games where you have to tell everyone to take a deep breathe.

In this instance it’s hard to say whether the official is right or wrong. We don’t know if Gio had been warned about stuff that he had said or did. Gio also may have used up his warning after the touchdown when his celebration involved him removing his helmet in the field. An assistant coach grabbed him and got him off the field.

Truth be told nobody but the officials and Gio probably know the entire situations details and never will.

 

[Knight Shift]

So before throwing the flag, the ref should have evaluated Rescigno’s year long performance (mostly from the bench, no less), determined that Rescigno was the only guy playing hard and that this was RESCIGNO’S game, and then not thrown the flag?

Listen: great effort by Rescigno, unfortunate that the ball came loose and went backward, good call by refs, understandable enough but still dumb reaction by Rescigno, and a fairly predictable flag. Fortunately, RU got a fairly quick second chance but didn’t convert. That’s really all there is to it.

No, that's not what I said, and talk about reading into a post.

I was talking about Gio "being wrong." This was out of character for him, and he was emotionally invested in this game.

Penalty was deserved. Just saying the guy should not be overly criticized for it.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

The call was wrong
the replay (if there really was one) was wrong - from the short time the replay took - I'm pretty sure they only looked to see if/that the ball bounced backwards - which it did...

but, what was totally wrong was the penalty......... Did you see it? it was from the Linesman 35 yards away from Gio........ 35 yards!!! -- - Gio wasn't in his face.. Gio was getting in the huddle for the next play....... what the hell is the linesman staring down Gio for? he should be spotting the damn ball ....

If a linesman can call a foul on any player taking crap within 35 yards - then there would be flags on every damn play......

This wasn't contact with an official -- and no one was taunting or threatening another player in an unsportsmanlike way.... or a sideline offense where the official was standing in his required spot and a coach/player was yelling at him....

Blue acting bigger than the game (as they say in baseball)......