Frost is not the answer

[CanuckChuck]

I think Frost (unless he changes his approach) will fail as the Huskers head coach.
The skill players you need for the spread up tempo offense will not come to Lincoln in the quantities needed to be successful. Like or not Nebraska needs to get back to what made it great and what currently makes Wisconsin relevant - running the damn football.

NOT option football but a powerful ground game.
You then gear your defense to stop the run and going up against a good running offense everyday in practice will make your defense better at stopping it.

Anybody know of a HC that would fit this scenario?

CC

 

[WHCSC]

Pelini at YSU?

 

[jflores]

TO

 

[SoFL Husker]

I think Frost (unless he changes his approach) will fail as the Huskers head coach.
The skill players you need for the spread up tempo offense will not come to Lincoln in the quantities needed to be successful. Like or not Nebraska needs to get back to what made it great and what currently makes Wisconsin relevant - running the damn football.

NOT option football but a powerful ground game.
You then gear your defense to stop the run and going up against a good running offense everyday in practice will make your defense better at stopping it.

Anybody know of a HC that would fit this scenario?

CC

Wrong. Harder to recruit #1 4 and 5 star WR and elite all-purpose OL. Finding speedy 5'6-5'9 155-180lb speed at skill positions with multi-dimensional, athletic OL is much easier to recruit. Do not want to be the Iowa or Wisky of the West. Want to punish them with speed. GBR

 

[redfanusa]

I know zilch about schemes, coaching, or Scott Frost. I do know that nearly every college program is running the spread right now, or some form of high-octane passing offense. That means the quarterbacks and receivers needed to run it are being recruited by all the "big names" in the game.

Nebraska had a natural advantage for many years in that it mastered the art of power football. Steamrolling linemen, lethal fullbacks, multi-threat quarterbacks. Option quarterbacks who faced position changes at almost any other school. The only real position that required Nebraska to beat out coastal teams was running back, and BOOM! we could offer 60 running plays a game to showcase skills versus 15 at the pass-happy schools.

It also made Nebraska hard to prepare for, as most opponents didn't have the scout team staff to even simulate Nebraska's offense. Usually they'd have a linebacker or some other guy who played option QB in high school try to do it. Not very well, usually.

Yeah, sometimes a 2001 Miami team would come along and stuff the Husker run game. It is true that Nebraska needed at least a semi-legitimate passing game to back defenses off. There's no reason to completely scuttle the passing game. But you establish one of the best power running games in the country first, and then you work on the finesse stuff.

Not saying they have to make a change. If I were coach that would be my first day priority. Because it worked here for many years. Following the herd...hasn't worked.

 

[Enrozes]

I think Frost (unless he changes his approach) will fail as the Huskers head coach.
The skill players you need for the spread up tempo offense will not come to Lincoln in the quantities needed to be successful. Like or not Nebraska needs to get back to what made it great and what currently makes Wisconsin relevant - running the damn football.

NOT option football but a powerful ground game.
You then gear your defense to stop the run and going up against a good running offense everyday in practice will make your defense better at stopping it.

Anybody know of a HC that would fit this scenario?

CC

UCF so far these season: 45 runs, 33 passes (58%)
UCF 2016: 526 runs, 448 passes (54%)
Oregon 2015: 618 runs, 375 passes (62%)
Oregon 2014: 644 runs, 474 passes (58%)
Oregon 2013: 568 runs, 405 passes (58%)

Wisconsin 2016: 658 runs, 323 passes (67%)
Wisconsin 2015: 512 runs, 419 passes (55%)

I'm not saying Frost's the right guy, but I'm also not sure you understand Frost's offense?

 

[CanuckChuck]

Pelini at YSU?

Do not want to be the Iowa or Wisky of the West.

Then I fear the Huskers will be the Purdue or Illinois of the West.

CC

 

[jflores]

UCF so far these season: 45 runs, 33 passes (58%)
UCF 2016: 526 runs, 448 passes (54%)
Oregon 2015: 618 runs, 375 passes (62%)
Oregon 2014: 644 runs, 474 passes (58%)
Oregon 2013: 568 runs, 405 passes (58%)

Wisconsin 2016: 658 runs, 323 passes (67%)
Wisconsin 2015: 512 runs, 419 passes (55%)

I'm not saying Frost's the right guy, but I'm also not sure you understand Frost's offense?

In broad sense, the only part of Frost's offense that is incompatible with "The Nebraska Way" is something Frost has already admitted.

"The one thing I wish we could do at Oregon is be a little more physical. I don’t think that’s a secret. I think everybody on our staff wishes we could be a little more physical on offense. That’s what Nebraska’s calling card was. If we could play fast and physical, I don’t think there’s anybody in the country who could stop us.”"

He's said he still believes in Oregon's scheme even though its been replicated and not that unique anymore, and he's also said it would be nice to combine NU's old scheme and Oregon's in some fashion.

I don't think he's attempted to really do that yet at UCF (although that would be a good question for film junkies), and maybe he might do it here.

 

[CanuckChuck]

UCF so far these season: 45 runs, 33 passes (58%)
UCF 2016: 526 runs, 448 passes (54%)
Oregon 2015: 618 runs, 375 passes (62%)
Oregon 2014: 644 runs, 474 passes (58%)
Oregon 2013: 568 runs, 405 passes (58%)

Wisconsin 2016: 658 runs, 323 passes (67%)
Wisconsin 2015: 512 runs, 419 passes (55%)

I'm not saying Frost's the right guy, but I'm also not sure you understand Frost's offense?

Exact splits will change depending on the personnel but do you deny that the 3 teams listed have different offensive identities? Would you call UCF or UO a power run offense?

CC

 

[inWV]

I ain't a film junky and don't know the details of the different approaches, but I am pretty sure that to be competitive for championships (conference and otherwise) you have to have a stout D and be able to run the ball successfully on third down. For NU, in September, 2017, the first is a no-check, with the possibility of development happening. The second is a no-check, and it don't look good.

 

[CanuckChuck]

He's said he still believes in Oregon's scheme even though its been replicated and not that unique anymore, and he's also said it would be nice to combine NU's old scheme and Oregon's in some fashion.

Hmmmmmm. Interesting.

CC

 

[chicolby]

I know zilch about schemes, coaching, or Scott Frost. I do know that nearly every college program is running the spread right now, or some form of high-octane passing offense. That means the quarterbacks and receivers needed to run it are being recruited by all the "big names" in the game.

Nebraska had a natural advantage for many years in that it mastered the art of power football. Steamrolling linemen, lethal fullbacks, multi-threat quarterbacks. Option quarterbacks who faced position changes at almost any other school. The only real position that required Nebraska to beat out coastal teams was running back, and BOOM! we could offer 60 running plays a game to showcase skills versus 15 at the pass-happy schools.

It also made Nebraska hard to prepare for, as most opponents didn't have the scout team staff to even simulate Nebraska's offense. Usually they'd have a linebacker or some other guy who played option QB in high school try to do it. Not very well, usually.

Yeah, sometimes a 2001 Miami team would come along and stuff the Husker run game. It is true that Nebraska needed at least a semi-legitimate passing game to back defenses off. There's no reason to completely scuttle the passing game. But you establish one of the best power running games in the country first, and then you work on the finesse stuff.

Not saying they have to make a change. If I were coach that would be my first day priority. Because it worked here for many years. Following the herd...hasn't worked.

This is the magic Bret Bielema formula. He's currently 1-1 at Arkansas in his fifth year with supposed fertile recruiting grounds.

While I agree, nearly every successful offense in college football can run the ball effectively, to solely base an offense around this premise is not wise.

 

[MegaTronsBro]

Wrong. Harder to recruit #1 4 and 5 star WR and elite all-purpose OL. Finding speedy 5'6-5'9 155-180lb speed at skill positions with multi-dimensional, athletic OL is much easier to recruit. Do not want to be the Iowa or Wisky of the West. Want to punish them with speed. GBR

Problem is that speed means little, once the power starts to wear on the players. The B1G requires size, power and strength. You can't just fly around a willy nilly like and win big. Look at NW, and Indiana, they've been trying that approach for years and they're not exactly perennial powers. The injury bugs always get them.

 

[jflores]

There's really no "magic offense".

Bielema is probably the coach closest to the "kneel at the feet of the power run game, and play staunch defense" mantra and he quite honestly isn't getting it done down there in Arkansas.

By a large margin. Its not like he's going 11-1 every year with losses to a physically superior Bama squad at the end of the year.

Nebraska will have to be physical "enough", fast "enough", smart/mistake free football "enough", recruit "enough" stars in some combination make the magic happen.

Its really no secret that all the best teams in college football since the fall of NU have had some combination of ability to run and throw. Yah every once in a while a team like Wisky wins a conf title running 80% of the time (although that's an exaggeration) but the real top teams are pretty well rounded.

Keep in mind that NU and PSU were ranked I think 74 and 75 in rushing last year, basically a tie, with radically different season outcomes. I believe NU was 20 or so spots better in rushing than Clemson, again with radically different season outcomes.

 

[DudznSudz]

There's really no "magic offense".

Bielema is probably the coach closest to the "kneel at the feet of the power run game, and play staunch defense" mantra and he quite honestly isn't getting it done down there in Arkansas.

By a large margin. Its not like he's going 11-1 every year with losses to a physically superior Bama squad at the end of the year.

Nebraska will have to be physical "enough", fast "enough", smart/mistake free football "enough", recruit "enough" stars in some combination make the magic happen.

Its really no secret that all the best teams in college football since the fall of NU have had some combination of ability to run and throw. Yah every once in a while a team like Wisky wins a conf title running 80% of the time (although that's an exaggeration) but the real top teams are pretty well rounded.

Right on. AND, the article I just read on SB Nation basically argues exactly that, with the exception of what Georgia Tech and Navy do with the Triple Option.

"The triple option is the most steadily efficient offense in college football, and Niumatalolo has been college football’s best win manufacturer over the last decade. Over the last four years, Nebraska has gone 9-12 in one-possession finishes and has lost three games by at least 30 points; Navy, meanwhile, has gone 12-6 in one-score games and has lost zero games by that much."

Essentially, either we keep tweaking what we've been doing, or we completely buy in to doing something oddball that is guaranteed to get us wins, but which requires very different recruiting and which may not work all the time against a superior team that can figure out how to stop it.

 

[chicolby]

Right on. AND, the article I just read on SB Nation basically argues exactly that, with the exception of what Georgia Tech and Navy do with the Triple Option.

"The triple option is the most steadily efficient offense in college football, and Niumatalolo has been college football’s best win manufacturer over the last decade. Over the last four years, Nebraska has gone 9-12 in one-possession finishes and has lost three games by at least 30 points; Navy, meanwhile, has gone 12-6 in one-score games and has lost zero games by that much."

Essentially, either we keep tweaking what we've been doing, or we completely buy in to doing something oddball that is guaranteed to get us wins, but which requires very different recruiting and which may not work all the time against a superior team that can figure out how to stop it.

I can't tell if you are a proponent of an option-based system or not. I'm going to assume so.

My opinion is that this system works for programs who need something "unique" to catch other programs off-guard. Not a bad call for a Navy or Georgia Tech. I don't think it's the right call for Nebraska for multiple reasons. 1) There simply aren't many highschools running this system so it's harder to find guys who are fits. 2) the best athletes want to play in the NFL and that offensive system is not preparing them for the NFL, so you're hoping to win with lesser quality athletes.

Of course, the option is fun to watch and can be effective, but I don't think it is a system that Nebraska should implement for long-term success.

 

[jflores]

I can't tell if you are a proponent of an option-based system or not. I'm going to assume so.

My opinion is that this system works for programs who need something "unique" to catch other programs off-guard. Not a bad call for a Navy or Georgia Tech. I don't think it's the right call for Nebraska for multiple reasons. 1) There simply aren't many highschools running this system so it's harder to find guys who are fits. 2) the best athletes want to play in the NFL and that offensive system is not preparing them for the NFL, so you're hoping to win with lesser quality athletes.

Of course, the option is fun to watch and can be effective, but I don't think it is a system that Nebraska should implement for long-term success.

I think the problem with a *heavy* power run offense is the ability to be shut down by better teams on the regular.

Quite often a game between Wisky and Iowa turns into a defensive struggle, where everyone's kinda waiting to see who besides the RB can muster enough athleticism to make a game changing play, the QB, the WR, a DB on a pick six, something like that.

Which inevitably leads to...we're going to have to have a reliable component of our gameplan that is something other than power if we wish to compete at a high level.

Which is basically Frost or any number of modern systems.

I hear what folks are saying about establish power and develop finesse later, but I don't think anyone in the fanbase expects a future coach to be given 20 years to "figure it out" like Tom got. Its just going to have to be part of the base offense from the word go.

 

[DudznSudz]

I can't tell if you are a proponent of an option-based system or not. I'm going to assume so.

My opinion is that this system works for programs who need something "unique" to catch other programs off-guard. Not a bad call for a Navy or Georgia Tech. I don't think it's the right call for Nebraska for multiple reasons. 1) There simply aren't many highschools running this system so it's harder to find guys who are fits. 2) the best athletes want to play in the NFL and that offensive system is not preparing them for the NFL, so you're hoping to win with lesser quality athletes.

Of course, the option is fun to watch and can be effective, but I don't think it is a system that Nebraska should implement for long-term success.

You are correct, it is not one I necessarily am recommending, I'm just saying, those two programs and coaches show it can work and work well at the college level.

We USED to run a really option-heavy offense specifically because it was proven to win and it was extremely difficult for other teams to prepare for. I don't think, however, that we need to go back to that. I think we need to keep developing talent along the lines we have been.

I would say, though, that if we did go the triple option route, I would understand why they are doing it.

 

[jflores]

You are correct, it is not one I necessarily am recommending, I'm just saying, those two programs and coaches show it can work and work well at the college level.

We USED to run a really option-heavy offense specifically because it was proven to win and it was extremely difficult for other teams to prepare for. I don't think, however, that we need to go back to that. I think we need to keep developing talent along the lines we have been.

I would say, though, that if we did go the triple option route, I would understand why they are doing it.

I love option football. I just don't think the old system is coming back. It probably can't come back.

Even Bielema doesn't generally run on 3rd and long. Damon likes to tell the story about how they *knew* they could get 8 on third and 7 with certain run calls. While we can have a snazzy TO/Oregon inspired running offense, those days are over.

 

[LZZOSO]

We don't need Frost for the shear fact he is probably going to bring a young ****** coaching staff comparable to Bo.

 

[Enrozes]

Exact splits will change depending on the personnel but do you deny that the 3 teams listed have different offensive identities? Would you call UCF or UO a power run offense?

CC

I wouldn't call them "power run offenses," but you can certainly implement a power run game out of the spread/gun. Oregon had an excellent run game for years under Kelly, and it wasn't just smoke and mirrors. They spread you out and make you defend speedy guys outside, and then beat you up with the run game against reduced numbers in the box (and they do use power concepts frequently).

I can do without the "snap every 14 seconds" hurry-up, but otherwise it seems like a perfect college football offense to me.

 

[jflores]

We don't need Frost for the shear fact he is probably going to bring a young ****** coaching staff comparable to Bo.

I'm not generally a conspiracy guy, but it would be interesting to see what potential conversation could happen between an AD and Frost back channel about keeping the defensive staff pretty much intact, and maybe even KW too. Scott would only have to bring a few guys and then backfilling as folks eventually moved on.

 

[Anon1727835823]

Pelini at YSU?

Melvin Gordon says hi to this post.

 

[WHCSC]

Melvin Gordon says hi to this post.

Doubtful. He's still out of breath from running so much.

 

[inWV]

Melvin Gordon says hi to this post.

Post of the season so far.

 

[LZZOSO]

I'm not generally a conspiracy guy, but it would be interesting to see what potential conversation could happen between an AD and Frost back channel about keeping the defensive staff pretty much intact, and maybe even KW too. Scott would only have to bring a few guys and then backfilling as folks eventually moved on.

I wouldn't mind that, but I just don't know if it would happen. I think Parella maybe, but after that I bet it would be a lost cause. With a firing, those assistants that have no real tie to Nebraska are going to be upset their guy is gone. They may hang around for a little bit, but I highly doubt it. I'd like that, but it wouldn't happen in my opinion, but wtf do I know.

 

[Earle Townsend.]

**** I'd take a frost to kill off the damn flys swarming my cows.

 

[Harry Caray]

We don't need Frost for the shear fact he is probably going to bring a young ****** coaching staff comparable to Bo.

As opposed to a ****** old coaching staff like Riley?

Scott doesn't strike me as the type of coach who just wants to hire unqualified minions. He poached a couple of position coaches from Power 5 schools/NFL, as well as a JUCO head coach to be his RB coach. He'd likely bring Greg Austin as O-Line coach who played here and coached with the Eagles, and would likely be a major upgrade from Cav. Scott has made a ton of connections during his playing days in the NFL and coaching days in Oregon.

 

[RealTucoSalamanca]

I wouldn't call them "power run offenses," but you can certainly implement a power run game out of the spread/gun. Oregon had an excellent run game for years under Kelly, and it wasn't just smoke and mirrors. They spread you out and make you defend speedy guys outside, and then beat you up with the run game against reduced numbers in the box (and they do use power concepts frequently).

I can do without the "snap every 14 seconds" hurry-up, but otherwise it seems like a perfect college football offense to me.

The snap every 14 seconds helped to make the offense so successful. Oregon would exploit a mismatch on defense, have success and run the same play 3 or 4 times in a row because the defense couldn't change personnel. If you give the defense time between snaps to adjust you take away one of the most important aspects of the offense.

In my opinion, I think it is hard to combine Osborne concepts with Oregon concepts like Frost wants to do. It's hard to run power football with average sized Olinemen and its tough to run a play every 14 seconds with 300lb road grader offensive linemen. It's great in theory, I just think you lessen the affect of each by trying to combine them.

I think Ohio St and Auburn have done a good job of running Osborne type concepts out of the shotgun. Ohio St with Braxton Miller and Barnett are much different than Ohio St with Cardale Jones. Jones was athletic enough to get some yards in the run game, but not the same type of yards Miller and Barnett get. Jones was a better passer than either Miller or Barnett and strangely enough they won their title with Jones.

Same with Auburn. Malzahn's offense looked a whole lot better with Cam, a guy that could run but not elusive fast, than what they've put out the lately.

 

[jflores]

The snap every 14 seconds helped to make the offense so successful. Oregon would exploit a mismatch on defense, have success and run the same play 3 or 4 times in a row because the defense couldn't change personnel. If you give the defense time between snaps to adjust you take away one of the most important aspects of the offense.

In my opinion, I think it is hard to combine Osborne concepts with Oregon concepts like Frost wants to do. It's hard to run power football with average sized Olinemen and its tough to run a play every 14 seconds with 300lb road grader offensive linemen. It's great in theory, I just think you lessen the affect of each by trying to combine them.

I think Ohio St and Auburn have done a good job of running Osborne type concepts out of the shotgun. Ohio St with Braxton Miller and Barnett are much different than Ohio St with Cardale Jones. Jones was athletic enough to get some yards in the run game, but not the same type of yards Miller and Barnett get. Jones was a better passer than either Miller or Barnett and strangely enough they won their title with Jones.

Same with Auburn. Malzahn's offense looked a whole lot better with Cam, a guy that could run but not elusive fast, than what they've put out the lately.

This is partially why I'm iffy about Frost re-inventing offensive football. He's already said Oregon's system is a system, you don't just take pieces out, or patch pieces into it.

This is probably why he does not seem to have gone to great lengths to work the theory into practice (combining the offenses).

I have to imagine that if he comes here, he's running essentially an Oregon offense and the 90's part of the deal with him is just going to be the name. We probably won't be seeing a whole lot of "blood bath" comments out of camp with him either.

Edit: At least initially. I imagine if he finds some stability here, he may feel like he can start experimenting.

 

[Morgan747]

You are correct, it is not one I necessarily am recommending, I'm just saying, those two programs and coaches show it can work and work well at the college level.

We USED to run a really option-heavy offense specifically because it was proven to win and it was extremely difficult for other teams to prepare for. I don't think, however, that we need to go back to that. I think we need to keep developing talent along the lines we have been.

I would say, though, that if we did go the triple option route, I would understand why they are doing it.

We didn’t run an option-heavy offense, that’s a misnomer. We were power based that used finesse (option).

 

[jflores]

This is partially why I'm iffy about Frost re-inventing offensive football. He's already said Oregon's system is a system, you don't just take pieces out, or patch pieces into it.

This is probably why he does not seem to have gone to great lengths to work the theory into practice (combining the offenses).

I have to imagine that if he comes here, he's running essentially an Oregon offense and the 90's part of the deal with him is just going to be the name. We probably won't be seeing a whole lot of "blood bath" comments out of camp with him either.

Edit: At least initially. I imagine if he finds some stability here, he may feel like he can start experimenting.

SSO chimes in from another site:

"2) I don't think it impacts the timing personally. But Chip Kelly and Scott Frost scare me for "run the ball guy". All the things I was saying we should have leaned on to beat NIU go out the window in those offenses. And you can tell me they would morph to our strengths, but that sounds way too familiar to our current situation. This is coming from a guy who has SF's number in his phone."

 

[inWV]

We didn’t run an option heavy offense, that’s a misnomer. We were power based that used finesse (option).

Look at some youtube from the Natty teams. At the pinnacle, we were a team that flat out came at the opposing team on each play. When we did decide to pass, the receiver was usually open by several yards. We essentially punched the other team in the mouth on each and every play. There wasn't really any other team that did it that way.

 

[Enrozes]

The snap every 14 seconds helped to make the offense so successful. Oregon would exploit a mismatch on defense, have success and run the same play 3 or 4 times in a row because the defense couldn't change personnel. If you give the defense time between snaps to adjust you take away one of the most important aspects of the offense.

I get the reasoning, I just don't like it... aesthetically? It doesn't "feel like football" to me without lots of time to watch replays, look at stats, talk about strategy between plays. Kinda like watching Grinnell play basketball.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't watch if it helped us win, though