Fire him tonight....

[engie]

Stop being obtuse. You know damn well who Chizik is. Just like you throwing out Butch Thompson as a Assistant Coach of the year. The fact Croom was a Coach of the Year proves that awards don't mean ****. Hell OM had a S&C coach under Nutt who won the same S&C Coach of the Year award while his team was absolutely pathetic.

Well, color me shocked that you spelled obtuse correctly.

3 elite pitching staffs in a row along with TWO national coach of the year awards are obviously a worse measuring stick than a single bad season.

If you have to go to football to try to make a college baseball analogy -- you don't know a damn thing about college baseball.

 

[patdog]

I think he will be the coach next year too. And if I were making the decision, he probably would be, depending on his plans to make changes for next season. But the overwhelming opinion on this board was that Rick Ray would be our coach next year right up until the day he was fired. Sometimes one season is bad enough to make a change. And if Stricklin does make a change, there is no question there will be a number of good coaches he can choose from to take Cohen's place, whether that's in a couple of weeks, next year, or 15 years from now.

 

[MSU'92]

Engie and RamBS throw out all metrics that paint Cohen in a bad light-which is most of them.

 

[Dawg1976]

87-118 in SEC play. Impressive. Oh yes, I forgot to delete the first two years and I'm also an idiot for not being on the Cohen bandwagon. There.......I saved you from having to respond.

 

[engie]

Won the SEC at UK.
Went deeper than Thunder and Lightning.

Trump cards no matter how much crying you do.

 

[MSU'92]

Awesome for UK. When did he win the SEC at State?

 

[engie]

Awesome for UK. When did he win the SEC at State?

When did Sylvester croom and Dave Serrano play for national titles is the real question**

 

[Ace-Leroy]

How do we actually know who made that call? We don't. I thought at the time that it looked like it may have been a head coach overrule. Which would open a whole new can of worms. But the fact is -- Cohen has been hands off on the pitching staff practically since day 1 here. And Butch has been elite. Pat consistently blames Cohen every time there is a blip on the radar with the pitching staff here. I don't remember Cohen getting any credit when that same staff was elite. It's not a congruent viewpoint. It's the non congruence that I am taking issue with.

Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that pitching to that guy was not Cohen's call? Do you really believe there is a head coach ANYWHERE in the country that allows his pitching coach to decide this?

 

[MSU'92]

We've left some stuff to be desired situationally. Certainly. Baserunning has been an issue. That doesn't mean you fire the coach. That doesn't mean that it isn't quickly changeable and fixable in the assistant ranks. Or do you think the head coach is the only one responsible for this stuff and the only on trying to teach it?
.

This kind of thinking is straight from the Larry Templeton School of Managing Mediocrity here

 

[Dog316]

Engie, don't waste your time with the "fire the coach" group. They are just a bunch of know it alls. They knew they were right in firing the basketball coach. How did that turn out. They are sure that the new basketball coach will be great, but there are about 30 "name" coaches hired to revive SEC basketball programs over the past 15 years. Most of whom lasted two or three years and ended in failure. Everyone is excited about Howland. I hope he can get it turned around. But looking at what has happened at every school in the SEC except Kentucky and Florida the big names guys were a bust. And Florida really doesn't count because their coach has been there about 15 years.

Cohen doesn't have a great record at State, but he got us to the national championship game a couple of years ago. He has to know a little bit about baseball.

 

[engie]

Are you seriously trying to sell the idea that pitching to that guy was not Cohen's call? Do you really believe there is a head coach ANYWHERE in the country that allows his pitching coach to decide this?

If you are arguing otherwise -- you don't have a clue about how Mississippi State baseball has been run for the last 7 years and probably haven't been watching. There is a reason Butch is the one that makes the pitching changes. He's operated our pitching staff with damn near full autonomy for the vast majority of his time here. To the point he's been referred to as manager of the pitching staff.

But you actually have what I thought happened backwards. Intentionally walking a guy and then deciding to pitch to him is most likely a head coach overrule -- obviously not a pitching coach overruling a head coach.

 

[VegasDawg13]

So -- let me get this straight -- Cohen's first 2 years here cleaning up Polk's mess count against him -- but what he did prior to that can't count for him? That seems fair**

Sandman says, "Fine, let's throw out the first two years as you say," and that is your response. You've gone off the deep end.

And if you think State fans should care what one of our coaches did for another school 9 years ago, you are completely delusional.

 

[Tin Cup Cowboy]

So the guy that likes to throw out stats for everything is ignoring every stat thrown out in reasonable fashion because it doesn't match your Cohen group think? You are acting like a petulant child.

You're a little too emotionally invested in our coach for some reason - maybe because he's one of our own. I personally care about our programs more than the coaches.

It's going to be a hard reality for you to accept, but he's just not that good at coaching - I'm sure you will come around eventually.

 

[engie]

So the guy that likes to throw out stats for everything is ignoring every stat thrown out in reasonable fashion because it doesn't match your Cohen group think? You are acting like a petulant child.

You're a little too emotionally invested in our coach for some reason - maybe because he's one of our own. I personally care about our programs more than the coaches.

It's going to be a hard reality for you to accept, but he's just not that good at coaching - I'm sure you will come around eventually.

yep -- two years ago nevAr happened!1!!1. National title coaches and national coaches of the year just aren't good at coaching!!1! We should fire them for one bad year and go cherrypick whoever we want1!!1

You really thought a post that didn't even come close to getting Cohen vs Bianco's record AT MSU correct was warranting of further statistical analysis from me?

 

[Ace-Leroy]

I am definitely arguing that Cohen made that call.

Your response is confusing though. First you say if I'm arguing that he did make the call that I don't understand how MSU baseball has been run the last 7 years , then in your second paragraph says it was most likely Cohen overruling and "obviously not a pitching coach overruling a head coach".

Which is it? You went from if I think that was Cohen's call I don't understand how MSU baseball is run to saying it was most likely a Cohen overrule. Are you saying it was Cohen's decision or not?

 

[paindonthurt_]

I don't give a **** abt losing to Lsu and ole miss if we are making the CWS and/or hosting regionals. Not a 17ing ****.

Now losing to them and sucking like this year is a different story. If we repeat this next year, I'll say good riddance.

 

[engie]

Read your own quote. "Do you really believe there is a head coach ANYWHERE in the country that allows his pitching coach to decide this?"

Yes. It has happened at Mississippi State for the last 7 years. Many pitching coaches make that call. The reason I believe it may have been a Cohen overrule is because we changed our minds mid AB. Had that not happened and we just decided to pitch to the guy from the drop -- Butch would have been the one to make that decision.

If Cohen interfering/meddling in our pitching very much right now like is being rumored -- I'd expect to see Butch take a head job in a few weeks. His autonomy to "manage" the pitching staff is a large part of the reason we've been able to hold him this long.

 

[Ace-Leroy]

I just don't buy that.

Read your own quote. "Do you really believe there is a head coach ANYWHERE in the country that allows his pitching coach to decide this?"

Yes. It has happened at Mississippi State for the last 7 years. Many pitching coaches make that call. The reason I believe it may have been a Cohen overrule is because we changed our minds mid AB. Had that not happened and we just decided to pitch to the guy from the drop -- Butch would have been the one to make that decision.

If Cohen interfering/meddling in our pitching very much right now like is being rumored -- I'd expect to see Butch take a head job in a few weeks. His autonomy to "manage" the pitching staff is a large part of the reason we've been able to hold him this long.

We will just have to disagree on that. I don't believe pitching coaches at the college or pro level make the decision to intentionally walk a guy or pitch to him. That is a manager or head coaches call.

The biggest problem I have is with the call itself. It seems like just conceding the game to me to not walk at least 1 runner to have a chance at a double play. My personal preference is to walk the bases loaded and set up a force at every base.

As head coach , Cohen can not simply sit back and allow this to happen. It was simply appalling to decide to pitch to that guy already down 2-0 in the count.

 

[engie]

We will just have to disagree on that. I don't believe pitching coaches at the college or pro level make the decision to intentionally walk a guy or pitch to him. That is a manager or head coaches call.

The biggest problem I have is with the call itself. It seems like just conceding the game to me to not walk at least 1 runner to have a chance at a double play. My personal preference is to walk the bases loaded and set up a force at every base.

As head coach , Cohen can not simply sit back and allow this to happen. It was simply appalling to decide to pitch to that guy already down 2-0 in the count.

Butch has made that call for us for 7 years. You "not believing" it just gives perspective to you not paying attention to how we did things prior to them going bad. Do you believe that a pitching coach makes pitching changes -- or do you think Cohen just makes Butch go out there for the heck of it? It may not be "the norm" in college or professional baseball -- but it's how we have done it from day 1 -- with a whole lot of success on that end.

I didn't like pitching to the guy at the time. But it's only a meltdown because we know what happened in hindsight. The passed ball and weak effort to get to it and Collins' lack of throwing confidence(he had time for a bang bang play at 3B) that got that guy to third was just as big, if not a bigger, factor. Hudson could have got the lead runner on the sac bunt that got that guy to second as well. Hudson had made that hitter look like an idiot. He was not throwing him a fastball, his breaker was falling off the table and well located, and both of the breakers were at the absolute bottom of the zone. That guy chopped the ball that beat us right into the ground. Normal field conditions = guy hosed at home on a weak grounder to 3B. But we were going to lose that game either way. We are simply terrified to go for kill shots.

 

[Ace-Leroy]

No disrespect intended...

Butch has made that call for us for 7 years. You "not believing" it just gives perspective to you not paying attention to how we did things prior to them going bad. Do you believe that a pitching coach makes pitching changes -- or do you think Cohen just makes Butch go out there for the heck of it? It may not be "the norm" in college or professional baseball -- but it's how we have done it from day 1 -- with a whole lot of success on that end.

I didn't like pitching to the guy at the time. But it's only a meltdown because we know what happened in hindsight. The passed ball and weak effort to get to it and Collins' lack of throwing confidence(he had time for a bang bang play at 3B) that got that guy to third was just as big, if not a bigger, factor. Hudson could have got the lead runner on the sac bunt that got that guy to second as well. Hudson had made that hitter look like an idiot. He was not throwing him a fastball, his breaker was falling off the table and well located, and both of the breakers were at the absolute bottom of the zone. That guy chopped the ball that beat us right into the ground. Normal field conditions = guy hosed at home on a weak grounder to 3B. But we were going to lose that game either way. We are simply terrified to go for kill shots.

but how do you know that Butch has made the call for 7 years whether to give an intentional walk or not? I doubt that is true and even if it were , As head coach Cohen still has the say for it to happen or not. It is HIS call.

Second point , No , I do not believe that a pitching coach makes pitching changes. By definition this is the job of the head coach. I do not believe that just because Butch goes to the mound on a pitching change that means it is his call to leave a guy in or take him out. Butch works for Cohen and does not have the power to change pitchers , leave a pitcher in , or decide to give an intentional walk or not without Cohen's consent.

Strongly disagree with your statement that We were going to lose that game either way. Walking the bases loaded would have given Us a MUCH better chance of getting out of that inning. It would have given us a much better chance at a double play and would have set up a force out at home. The way we chose to play it , We had no force at the plate and the only chance for a double play was a caught line drive to double the runner off of third. Cohen chose VERY poorly in pitching to that hitter.

Also must mention , if the idea was to go for a strikeout , the Ole miss hitter had a 2-0 advantage in the count , is a contact hitter knowing almost any ball in play wins the game , is hitting .385 , and has only struck out 2 times in 26 at bats.

 

[engie]

If you don't believe what has been admitted reality from Cohen himself when things were still going well -- then I obviously don't have any reason to continue arguing with you about it. Butch has been called manager of our pitching staff by our own head coach. Managers get to manage.

I guess it's really on Stricklin because he's Cohen's boss. And so on and so forth for every gm in baseball.

 

[Ace-Leroy]

When has Cohen ever admitted that Butch makes the call whether to intentionally walk a hitter or not? That is absurd.

 

[engie]

When has Cohen ever admitted that Butch makes the call whether to intentionally walk a hitter or not? That is absurd.

He has said that Butch makes the pitching calls with practically no interference from him for his whole career here. He's very open and vocal about this when things are going well. Obviously not saying it right now to avoid the appearance of pointing fingers.

But it's unconventional, so it's absurd -- everyone knows Cohen and Butch are conventional coaches.

 

[Ace-Leroy]

Butch might call pitches from the dugout , that is making pitching calls. Deciding to pitch to a hitter or not is a game strategy decision and belongs to the manager or head coach. Butch is not making that call.

 

[Skid Marx.sixpack]

Engie,Todd4State and MSBaseball say most of these posters don't know **** about baseball.