Fall baseball.....

[Goat Holding Inc]

When did this become such a big thing for kids? I mean let's think about it logically. All throughout our history, little leaguers played in the spring and summer at most, if they made the all star team. College kids played in the spring and summer, with a short stint in the fall (still do this). MLB goes from spring right through until fall, and those are grown men.

At what point did we decide that kids should be playing in the fall? Are we simply ignoring the Tommy John stats? Rate of burnout? You can't escape this reality, but parents still make their kids play. I'm holding my kid out though. Fall is for soccer and football.

I don't really have an opinion on travel ball vs. rec ball. I can see the benefits of playing better competition. I just don't like the idea of playing year round. There is a direct correlation to injuries.

Thoughts?

 

[AlCoDog]

My 10 year old practices once a week and will play in 3 weekend tournaments from September through October. They have 8 kids that pitch and nobody throws over 5 innings in a weekend. I played and threw 3 times that much in the yard with friends when i was his age. He plays football as well, so he misses some baseball for that. Our fall ball is very minimal. Then in the winter they have “winter workouts” which i love. They just go once a week and do some agility, and exercise stuff with some dodge ball and tug of war thrown in. It’s fun and they don’t sit on their *** all winter.

Also, i don’t make him do any of it. I tell him all the time to let me know when he doesn’t want to play, and i can go back to having my weekends playing golf and going to State games.

 

[stateu1]

When did this become such a big thing for kids?

At what point did we decide that kids should be playing in the fall?

When the organizers of the teams and the tournaments decided they could make money.

 

[Drebin]

When did this become such a big thing for kids? I mean let's think about it logically. All throughout our history, little leaguers played in the spring and summer at most, if they made the all star team. College kids played in the spring and summer, with a short stint in the fall (still do this). MLB goes from spring right through until fall, and those are grown men.

At what point did we decide that kids should be playing in the fall? Are we simply ignoring the Tommy John stats? Rate of burnout? You can't escape this reality, but parents still make their kids play. I'm holding my kid out though. Fall is for soccer and football.

I don't really have an opinion on travel ball vs. rec ball. I can see the benefits of playing better competition. I just don't like the idea of playing year round. There is a direct correlation to injuries.

Thoughts?

They don't play year-round.

My teams play 4 to 6 fall tournaments. The biggest advantage to fall ball is to get swings against live pitching and to work on fundamentals. I treat fall as an exhibition season, so I put them in different spots and see how they handle them.

We take off the second half of July and August. Then we start practicing in September and play 4-6 tournaments through the end of October. We take off November and December, and then start our offseason program in January.

Tommy John stats are misleading. I'm not endangering a kid's arm because he plays 15-20 baseball games in the fall.

In this day and age, particularly in the part of the world we live, if your kid aspires to play baseball in high school, college, or beyond, this is what it's going to take to get him there, like it or not.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

What age is this? When do they play other sports or do they not?

 

[tbaydog]

When the organizers of the teams and the tournaments decided they could make money.

Exactly, it's a cash cow. They want every available dollars to their organization, instead of every other travel sport.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

What age is this? When do they play other sports or do they not?

This was going to be my question. My kid is playing soccer and football this fall with no time for anything else.

 

[Drebin]

What age is this? When do they play other sports or do they not?

About half the team also plays football so we have a relaxed practice schedule. The kids who play football for their schools do that through the week and are excused from practice. We practice on the weekends when we don't play, and we typically have walkthru/workouts on wednesday evenings.

These are for 12-13 year olds. I agree that fall baseball may be overkill for some of the younger kids, but once they get up into 7th or 8th grade, it's pretty much necessary.

 

[AlCoDog]

So you’re aware soccer has been doing this for 40 years? Travel year round and pay money, right?

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

So you’re aware soccer has been doing this for 40 years? Travel year round and pay money, right?

You don't really hear about the injuries in soccer, especially considering that it's not a huge sport in the US. People play soccer all over the world because it's the cheapest sport. All it takes is a field and a ball. And there's no excess wear and tear on the body, similar to basketball. That said, I believe playing any sport constantly can cause injuries, ask Tiger Woods.

You can spend money doing whatever you want to do.

My biggest question is, why the sudden change in baseball over the last 20 years? Do we know something now that they didn't know for 100 years?

We do have spring training in football, which is mainly used for fundamentals. And I agree it's necessary. But it's 3 weeks maximum. I can understand that for baseball. But you have a whole host of millenials out there who will show you their scars and tell you the evils of travel ball and long baseball seasons.

If it's all about fundmentals, can't we do that at home? Why subject kids to this possible overuse of any sport? Baseball just seems to be the biggest offender.

 

[Drebin]

You don't really hear about the injuries in soccer, especially considering that it's not a huge sport in the US. People play soccer all over the world because it's the cheapest sport. All it takes is a field and a ball. And there's no excess wear and tear on the body, similar to basketball. Playing any sport constantly can cause injuries, ask Tiger Woods.

You can spend money doing whatever you want to do.

My biggest question is, why the sudden change in baseball over the last 20 years? Do we know something now that they didn't know for 100 years?

We do have spring training in football, which is mainly used for fundamentals. And I agree it's necessary. But it's 3 weeks maximum. I can understand that for baseball. But you have a whole host of millenials out there who will show you their scars and tell you the evils of travel ball and long baseball seasons.

If it's all about fundmentals, can't we do that at home? Why subject kids to this possible overuse of any sport? Baseball just seems to be the biggest offender.

Fall baseball is six to eight weeks. You're making it sound like they never stop playing.

And if people can spend money doing whatever they want to do, why are you protesting?

This is the bottom line: There are kids working in the fall to get better at baseball. If you have a kid that aspires to play, he has to keep up. That's the price to pay to be successful, unless your kid has otherworldly talent, but even then, he will eventually get passed over if he doesn't put in the work.

Larry Bird put up hundreds of shots per day, year round. When he was mocked for not taking some time off, he said he had to do it because somewhere in another gym, Magic Johnson was doing the same thing, and he wasn't going to get outworked by Magic Johnson. Talent isn't enough. You have to put in the work.

 

[HumpDawgy]

Talking only about HS, you only have a limited time in the school year in the spring to play games before end of school. Summer travel ball gets expensive and excludes some talented kids. Without knowing much about how things work nowadays with youth baseball, I think fall ball would be a way for kids to get more experience during the school year and not give up on baseball. Maybe it is something different.

 

[AlCoDog]

There are without a doubt, lunatic coaches and parents out there that will ruin a kids arm to win at youth baseball. I see them every weekend.

But like Drebin mentioned, if your kid has any aspirations of playing high school or higher, they need the reps hitting live pitching and in the field to keep up. It’s up to parents to make sure their kids are being taken care of.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

And if people can spend money doing whatever they want to do, why are you protesting?

I'm not. I held out because of time. But my main question, still, is why the change?

This is the bottom line: There are kids working in the fall to get better at baseball. If you have a kid that aspires to play, he has to keep up. That's the price to pay to be successful, unless your kid has otherworldly talent, but even then, he will eventually get passed over if he doesn't put in the work.

Fair enough. I hear this 'keep up' talk all the time, but I don't know that the work put in the fall could not just be made up by practicing earlier in the spring. Seems like it doesn't really matter, the top talent always emerges.

Larry Bird put up hundreds of shots per day, year round. When he was mocked for not taking some time off, he said he had to do it because somewhere in another gym, Magic Johnson was doing the same thing, and he wasn't going to get outworked by Magic Johnson. Talent isn't enough. You have to put in the work.

These are kids. Again, Larry Bird was a grown professional. I could see this for college or even high school.

Another question I have is if the the whole 'playing all sports makes you a better athlete' really applies. You see coaches and former players say it all the time but who knows what is true.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

Exactly, it's a cash cow. They want every available dollars to their organization, instead of every other travel sport.

Do either you or stateu1 have kids that play?

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

We did the same thing. We were able to keep a core of 9 to 10 kids playing together from age of 7 thru HS Seniors. But in fall ball, only a couple of practices and then a couple or 3 games on the weekend. Every single player “pitched”. Not all would be starters, but all pitched some. Mainly they just kept developing their team, finding multiple positions they could play and generally got a little better playing about 10- 15 fall games until they reached 14. They are all 29-30 and all play softball year around and have a blast doing it. Obviously they don’t play softball together, since they are scattered with careers.

But they are all still friends and get together when they can.

 

[stateu1]

Do either you or stateu1 have kids that play?

I did. My youngest played AA ball from age 10-14. Not a great player, but he just loved being on a team. He played school football 7th-9th grade also.

Drebin is absolutely right about the kids needing reps if they want to play high school and beyond. Even with the reps, my son didn't even try out for high school because of the competition.

I sure am glad to have my weekends back. I don't know what to do in the afternoons now that I'm not running to practices.

 

[stateu1]

Fall baseball is six to eight weeks. You're making it sound like they never stop playing.

And if people can spend money doing whatever they want to do, why are you protesting?

This is the bottom line: There are kids working in the fall to get better at baseball. If you have a kid that aspires to play, he has to keep up. That's the price to pay to be successful, unless your kid has otherworldly talent, but even then, he will eventually get passed over if he doesn't put in the work.

Larry Bird put up hundreds of shots per day, year round. When he was mocked for not taking some time off, he said he had to do it because somewhere in another gym, Magic Johnson was doing the same thing, and he wasn't going to get outworked by Magic Johnson. Talent isn't enough. You have to put in the work.

You are correct. However, the question was when and why did fall ball start. People were playing college and MLB ball long before a fall tournament season. Once it started, though, you better get in if you want to keep up. But, I'm not sure the schedule in the Hispanic countries. Maybe the climate allows for year around ball.

 

[Drebin]

You are correct. However, the question was when and why did fall ball start. People were playing college and MLB ball long before a fall tournament season. Once it started, though, you better get in if you want to keep up. But, I'm not sure the schedule in the Hispanic countries. Maybe the climate allows for year around ball.

Fall ball has always been around. I played fall baseball 35 years ago. Schools are playing it more and more, too.

I think it's more prevalent now only because there are more kids playing it, and primarily due to the area that we are located. This is a baseball hotbed, maybe one of the biggest in the country. There are thousands of kids in every age group playing baseball every weekend.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

Fall ball has always been around. I played fall baseball 35 years ago. Schools are playing it more and more, too.

I think it's more prevalent now only because there are more kids playing it, and primarily due to the area that we are located. This is a baseball hotbed, maybe one of the biggest in the country. There are thousands of kids in every age group playing baseball every weekend.

Seems like it was just getting started, at least in central Mississippi, in the mid to late 90s. I remember Stacy Hester at New Hope being one of the first programs to do fall ball at the high school level. Not even sure who they played. American Legion, which to me, was the first travel ball, was just starting then too. Of course in Mississippi we are behind the other states so who knows when say, Georgia, got started.

 

[AlCoDog]

Jackson had the 96’ers and Bombers(and junior Bombers) in the late 80’s early 90’s. Not sure what there schedule was, but that was the first competitive baseball i remember hearing about.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

96'ers were there in 80.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

where is your 4 consecutive months of no throwing a baseball?

They don't play year-round.

My teams play 4 to 6 fall tournaments. The biggest advantage to fall ball is to get swings against live pitching and to work on fundamentals. I treat fall as an exhibition season, so I put them in different spots and see how they handle them.

We take off the second half of July and August. Then we start practicing in September and play 4-6 tournaments through the end of October. We take off November and December, and then start our offseason program in January.

Tommy John stats are misleading. I'm not endangering a kid's arm because he plays 15-20 baseball games in the fall.

In this day and age, particularly in the part of the world we live, if your kid aspires to play baseball in high school, college, or beyond, this is what it's going to take to get him there, like it or not.

Dr Andrews, who most acknowledge is the pitching arm expert, highly recommends 4 consecutive months of no throwing a baseball.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/hea...-florida-hospital-orlando-20160316-story.html

 

[Tall Dawg]

It is my understanding the young Latin players play baseball 12 months out of the year and a ton make it to MLB.
I wonder what their arm injury situations have been over the years? I’m sure someone can located some articles on this subject.

 

[Goat Holding Inc]

It is my understanding the young Latin players play baseball 12 months out of the year and a ton make it to MLB.
I wonder what their arm injury situations have been over the years? I’m sure someone can located some articles on this subject.

If I had to nail down ONE reason why any player would have an injury, I would say it's throwing too hard, followed closely by high pitch count in a single outing. Third would be throwing too often, i.e. throwing year round. Seems like more than anything, the velo era ushered in the Tommy John era. Maybe it all runs together. But at the end of the day, you only get one elbow.

 

[Drebin]

Dr Andrews, who most acknowledge is the pitching arm expert, highly recommends 4 consecutive months of no throwing a baseball.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/hea...-florida-hospital-orlando-20160316-story.html

Of course he does.

I think I'm good.

 

[hatfieldms]

Our league only has 1 game per week on Sunday afternoons. We ended up starting the fall league a couple of years ago due to the demand from the community wanting it

 

[philduckworth]

Dr Andrews, who most acknowledge is the pitching arm expert, highly recommends 4 consecutive months of no throwing a baseball.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/hea...-florida-hospital-orlando-20160316-story.html

actually 4 months off with 2-3 being consecutive. October-Dec is a great time to get 3 consecutive mos off. Mid-July to Mid August is usually another good time to take a month off.

 

[PartTimeGenius]

They don't play year-round.

My teams play 4 to 6 fall tournaments. The biggest advantage to fall ball is to get swings against live pitching and to work on fundamentals. I treat fall as an exhibition season, so I put them in different spots and see how they handle them.

We take off the second half of July and August. Then we start practicing in September and play 4-6 tournaments through the end of October. We take off November and December, and then start our offseason program in January.

Tommy John stats are misleading. I'm not endangering a kid's arm because he plays 15-20 baseball games in the fall.

In this day and age, particularly in the part of the world we live, if your kid aspires to play baseball in high school, college, or beyond, this is what it's going to take to get him there, like it or not.

I disagree here. Playing baseball year round is not going to be the difference in your kid playing baseball in high school. Pure raw talent is what gets your kid on a team in high school. Once they get to Jr. High and into Sr. High is when the true craft of baseball is learned. This is the age when kids/young men are learning to use a man's body. Getting to college and beyond requires a higher level of commitment, sure. But until then, your kid can likely do just fine with pure talent.
You typically hear the phrase "A Five-tool guy".
Speed. Power. Hitting for average. Fielding. Arm Strength. Of those 5, only 2 can be developed and effectively worked on at a young age. Hitting for average (contact) and Fielding. One could argue for Power, which I can understand. However, at the end of the day, you can't truly teach power. Those that are capable can learn how to utilize their power, but one cannot consistently turn a contact guy(see Jake Mangum) into a power hitter. Speed And Arm Strength. These two come with age and development. The old saying goes "You can't teach speed." That is true. Arm strength comes from proper conditioning of not only the arm, but entire body.
Add in a 6th tool of the Mental Approach. None of the above 5 tools are worth anything if this is not up to par.

No amount of hardwork and and year 'round dedication to playing is going to give your young child any significant advantage into high school and beyond. Those that are going to throw 90+ will throw 90+ with or without that additional time as a youngster. Guys that will hit for power will hit for power when the time comes in their development to do so.

The theory of getting swings against live pitching is only effective if you do it continually. Taking 2 months off between seeing live pitching has the same effect as 4 months or more. Either way, you lose timing and have to re-adjust.

I am in favor of a child/young person putting in hard work and working on a craft at anytime. A commitment is what it takes. But the theory that one must be committed year 'round as you describe it above just to make a HS team is a bit of a reach.

 

[johnson86-1]

I'm not. I held out because of time. But my main question, still, is why the change?


Fair enough. I hear this 'keep up' talk all the time, but I don't know that the work put in the fall could not just be made up by practicing earlier in the spring. Seems like it doesn't really matter, the top talent always emerges.


These are kids. Again, Larry Bird was a grown professional. I could see this for college or even high school.

Another question I have is if the the whole 'playing all sports makes you a better athlete' really applies. You see coaches and former players say it all the time but who knows what is true.

My theory is that a lot of the people you see say that are the type of athletes where they don't need the same number of reps to pick something up. If you are the type of player that has the athleticism and natural coordination that you are going to belong on the field and not the bench even with fewer reps than other people your age, it probably is really helpful to get that cross training. But if you are not that type of freak athlete, it's probably better to get the extra reps in the sport you are trying to excel at.

For example, Olajuwan might not have been the Dream if he hadn't grown up playing soccer. But had he not been a freak athlete with freak coordination, not playing basketball until 15 might have made it hard for him to develop into anything more than a defensive presence on the basketball court.

I'm not sure any of that applies as much to baseball, which is one of the reasons I think baseball is one of the shittiest sports. On the plus side, much more so than football or basketball, lesser athletes can make up for their lack of athleticism by outworking other people. But on the negative side, because you can make up a lot of ground through training, the "arms race" to put in the most time training and the most time playing against good competition has become ridiculous. Having ****** rec leagues for 8 year olds because everybody is too busy playing travel ball because they are worried about being good enough to play high school ball is ridiculous.

 

[AlCoDog]

Is this your reasoning for not being a full time genius?

 

[TheStateUofMS]

Well I was playing fall ball when I was 8-9yrs old I believe and I was born in 1989...it's nothing new....

 

[Drebin]

I disagree here. Playing baseball year round is not going to be the difference in your kid playing baseball in high school. Pure raw talent is what gets your kid on a team in high school. Once they get to Jr. High and into Sr. High is when the true craft of baseball is learned. This is the age when kids/young men are learning to use a man's body. Getting to college and beyond requires a higher level of commitment, sure. But until then, your kid can likely do just fine with pure talent.
You typically hear the phrase "A Five-tool guy".
Speed. Power. Hitting for average. Fielding. Arm Strength. Of those 5, only 2 can be developed and effectively worked on at a young age. Hitting for average (contact) and Fielding. One could argue for Power, which I can understand. However, at the end of the day, you can't truly teach power. Those that are capable can learn how to utilize their power, but one cannot consistently turn a contact guy(see Jake Mangum) into a power hitter. Speed And Arm Strength. These two come with age and development. The old saying goes "You can't teach speed." That is true. Arm strength comes from proper conditioning of not only the arm, but entire body.
Add in a 6th tool of the Mental Approach. None of the above 5 tools are worth anything if this is not up to par.

No amount of hardwork and and year 'round dedication to playing is going to give your young child any significant advantage into high school and beyond. Those that are going to throw 90+ will throw 90+ with or without that additional time as a youngster. Guys that will hit for power will hit for power when the time comes in their development to do so.

The theory of getting swings against live pitching is only effective if you do it continually. Taking 2 months off between seeing live pitching has the same effect as 4 months or more. Either way, you lose timing and have to re-adjust.

I am in favor of a child/young person putting in hard work and working on a craft at anytime. A commitment is what it takes. But the theory that one must be committed year 'round as you describe it above just to make a HS team is a bit of a reach.

If you're from Noxapater, this is accurate. If you are from Desoto County, MS, your entire post is hogwash and slop.

These high school coaches have allegiances with these travel programs and often times will take kids affiliated with certain programs. At Desoto Central, you have 100 kids trying out for baseball. Some of the best athletes in the most populous county in the state can't even make the first round of cuts out there.

These baseball programs work on speed training, arm training, mental approaches, and basic fundamentals from the time these kids are 7-8 years old. The ones who are slow to pick it up never get out of AA ball. But I encourage you to watch a nine year old major tournament sometime and see how advanced those kids are for their age. That's not a coincidence. And 8 years from now, those are the kids that will be taking high school roster spots, if they stick with it and continue to develop.

 

[AssEndDawg]

What age is this? When do they play other sports or do they not?

Starting in Junior High at my son's school if you played another sport you weren't going to be a starter on the baseball team. Starting with High School if you didn't play year round baseball, and only baseball, you wouldn't see the field. I refuse to let my son play year round ball because, regardless of what any of the people on this board say, it is dangerous for kids. I work in healthcare and our orthopedic group can easily tell you the harm caused by even "a few tournaments" in the fall. Kids need an off-season to rest growing arms and this isn't just pitchers.

These high school coaches are so plugged in the guy knew every player, exactly what summer and fall teams they played on, how many lessons they took, exact stats... The baseball community is crazy tight. One night at the last minute practice was extended and before our son could even tell us we got a call from the 3rd party place he gets batting lessons asking us if we want to move his lesson because the school's practice was going to go so long we wouldn't make his appointment. That was some creepy ****.

With my decision my son got two at bats last season and zero time in field as a sophomore. The lineup was set based, yes on talent (my son is not the best player on the field so no expectation of starting but was an able backup), but also on who played year round ball. It's a crappy situation that has gotten completely out of hand. These guys don't give a damn about the kids or their health, they only care about winning...

 

[stateu1]

If you're from Noxapater, this is accurate. If you are from Desoto County, MS, your entire post is hogwash and slop.

These high school coaches have allegiances with these travel programs and often times will take kids affiliated with certain programs. At Desoto Central, you have 100 kids trying out for baseball. Some of the best athletes in the most populous county in the state can't even make the first round of cuts out there.

These baseball programs work on speed training, arm training, mental approaches, and basic fundamentals from the time these kids are 7-8 years old. The ones who are slow to pick it up never get out of AA ball. But I encourage you to watch a nine year old major tournament sometime and see how advanced those kids are for their age. That's not a coincidence. And 8 years from now, those are the kids that will be taking high school roster spots, if they stick with it and continue to develop.

Yep. Lewisburg has their 9th graders picked out by 7th grade unless somebody just wows them at tryouts.

 

[mstateglfr]

I laugh at all the claims that baseball needs to be year round for reps. ********. Up thru about 14, it can be seasonal and kids can get PLENTY of experience.
A kid that plays multiple sports, baseball being one of them for a season, can easily keep up with others once they hit the summer after 8th grade and focus on baseball more at that point.
Its baseball- its about the least experience demanding youth sport thru middle school. After that is when more experience pays off in situational knowledge and repetition.

All my co-workers with elementary age kids who play 65 games a year of baseball or softball are 17ing nuts. But the kids like it so the parents are gonna do whatever it takes for the kids to have a great childhood!

I see a lot more value in individual or small group lessons in the offseason. 1x/week for a couple of the offseason months where kids can work on offensive and defensive skill building in a small group setting allows them time is way better than 10 games played.

 

[AlCoDog]

You’re kind of a condescending ****.

 

[philduckworth]

Its baseball- its about the least experience demanding youth sport thru middle school. After that is when more experience pays off in situational knowledge and repetition.

I'd say the exact opposite. Now football on the other hand doesn't require as much live work. You can show up as a senior in football if you are either big, fast or strong. Baseball is all about the reps and especially live reps.

 

[mstateglfr]

You’re kind of a condescending ****.

Fair enough.
I played travel ball from 3rd grade thru high school and looking back on it, real development on the team and competition took place around 8th grade regardless of how many games were played.

The best thing that can happen for hopeful athletes(almost regardless of sport) in elementary and middle school years is a development of hand eye coordination and balance. Those two skills will determine one's ceiling level.

Individual and small group skill work greatly improves hand eye coordination and balance compared to playing a **** ton of games and standing around in a field or sitting on a bench for hours on end.

 

[mstateglfr]

I'd say the exact opposite. Now football on the other hand doesn't require as much live work. You can show up as a senior in football if you are either big, fast or strong. Baseball is all about the reps and especially live reps.

Baseball is about reps, sure, but that can come from individual or small group work. You get 10x the exposure that way.

Standing in the outfield for 40min while a team takes BP doesnt improve ****.
Standing in the field or on a bench for hours each weekend during games doesnt create meaningful reps.

Less games and more individual/small group work is how muscle memory and reps get done in an impactful way.
And small group work means a **** ton less time needs to be dedicated by the family too.

Wins all around.