Duke's bracket....

[Big_Blue79]

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
I listen to national sports talk radio on XM satellite, mostly MadDog and the college sports channel 91, it's not just UK fans that think Duke got it easy. Both talking heads and callers have been saying so since the brackets were announced. Not sure why some can't just admit it.

Because:

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
I listen to national sports talk radio on XM satellite, mostly MadDog and the college sports channel 91, it's not just UK fans that think Duke got it easy. Both talking heads and callers have been saying so since the brackets were announced. Not sure why some can't just admit it.

is proof of nothing. Blowhard radio hosts and callers? Both? Wow, the evidence is so overwhelming.

Instead, you could rely on objective measures from people who are 1) smarter than "both talking heads and callers" and you (KenPom, Sagarin, BPI, etc...), 2) have money on the line (odds makers, professional handicappers and betters and the like), or 3) evaluate teams for a living (not the talking heads types, but the actual sports journalists who are good at the job of team/player evaluation).

 

[Blue63Madison]

We got the easiest path the Final Four. I'm not sure how anyone could see it any other way.

 

[UKYcat1865]

Well it's those talking head's job to know a little about what they are talking about, and they have their real names and jobs out there for everyone to know who is saying that, rather than some random anonymous internet posters cherry picking stats to use. And with those callers, many of them longstanding, repeat callers over the years, at least you can listen to them speak to gauge their level of coherence. And again, those professionals and callers aren't UK fans with an axe to grind that some in this thread are suggesting.

 

[BBCatsExile]

Originally posted by mj2k10:

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:




Um, nope, Duke did not deserve a #1 seed, that's what it's based on.

But Arizona did? You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that Duke didn't deserve a 1 seed because of bad losses, then say that a team with more bad losses deserved a 1. And you can't just ignore that Duke had road wins against 2 of the teams we're talking about.

Actually, you can do all of that, but you can't try to sell that it's based on facts and logic. Because it's not.

Arizona deserved a #1 seed based on many things. 1 OOC loss (played true road games too), undefeated at home, won power conference going away, won conference tournament, look at KenPom and all other metrics, passes the eye test. What are they, 31-3 right now? And the three losses against bums, yes, but by a combined 8 points or something like that? In the top 10 all year. They are in the west and should have been rewarded as the #1 there.

That = #1 seed IMO

Unfair to put the 3 top teams in the nation on one side of the bracket, where Duke's real competition is Gonzaga who they matchup well with. They were protected in this seeding through and through, and deserved a #2 seed, would have received a #2 seed if their name wasn't Duke. Virginia got shafted. Wisconsin got shafted, having to play an Elite 8 game out in Los Angeles, CA.





This post was edited on 3/25 1:47 PM by BBCatsExile

 

[UKYcat1865]

Why are we stopping at path to the final four, who will have the easiest game once at the final four?

 

[Blue63Madison]

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Why are we stopping at path to the final four, who will have the easiest game once at the final four?

Because we knew the teams in each region on Selection Sunday. We don't know the Final Four teams yet?

 

[mjj_2K]

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:

Originally posted by mj2k10:

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:




Um, nope, Duke did not deserve a #1 seed, that's what it's based on.

But Arizona did? You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that Duke didn't deserve a 1 seed because of bad losses, then say that a team with more bad losses deserved a 1. And you can't just ignore that Duke had road wins against 2 of the teams we're talking about.

Actually, you can do all of that, but you can't try to sell that it's based on facts and logic. Because it's not.

Arizona deserved a #1 seed based on many things. 1 OOC loss (played true road games too), undefeated at home, won power conference going away, won conference tournament, look at KenPom and all other metrics, passes the eye test. What are they, 31-3 right now? And the three losses against bums, yes, but by a combined 8 points or something like that? In the top 10 all year. They are in the west and should have been rewarded as the #1 there.

That = #1 seed IMO

Unfair to put the 3 top teams in the nation on one side of the bracket, where Duke's real competition is Gonzaga who they matchup well with. They were protected in this seeding through and through, and deserved a #2 seed, would have received a #2 seed if their name wasn't Duke. Virginia got shafted. Wisconsin got shafted, having to play an Elite 8 game out in Los Angeles, CA.





This post was edited on 3/25 1:47 PM by BBCatsExile

So you're saying that Arizona's loss at UNLV (1 of the 2 OOC road games they played, the other being UTEP), was somehow better than Duke's win at Wisconsin?

Okey-doke.

And I still can't figure out how Wisconsin is supposed to be superior to Duke when Duke beat them rather easily. Is everyone supposed to pretend that didn't happen? If Virginia and Wisconsin got shafted, it happened in large part because they both lost home games to Duke. If you don't want to get shafted, don't lose those games, or win enough to overcome the loss. All Virginia probably had to do was make the ACC final. Or not lose to UL (another team that Duke had a road win against). Do either of those things, and there's little chance that Duke gets the 1 seed over them.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Well it's those talking head's job to know a little about what they are talking about, and they have their real names and jobs out there for everyone to know who is saying that, rather than some random anonymous internet posters cherry picking stats to use. And with those callers, many of them longstanding, repeat callers over the years, at least you can listen to them speak to gauge their level of coherence. And again, those professionals and callers aren't UK fans with an axe to grind that some in this thread are suggesting.

People in the media are not held accountable for their opinions. Random callers on the radio are definitely not held accountable for what they say. Half of the people in the media don't argue for what they actually believe, they just make very divisive statements to attract viewers/listeners. Plus you add just about everybody, at least the type of simpleton who is a regular radio show caller, hates Duke, I don't trust anybody without being able to look at a body of work that shows that they know what they are talking about.

I'd be more than willing to admit it if they obviously had the easiest bracket, but I don't feel like their bracket was significantly easier than ours. Some of the higher seeds on their side have lost, but unless you are gonna claim people are throwing games, I'm not sure how that is evidence that there is a conspiracy.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

Villanova was the worst of the teams that was up for a one seed. I feel like that is safe to say now. To be honest, none of the other teams really did enough to be considered obviously better. I don't really know why Arizona and Wisconsin are all of a sudden obviously the two best teams not named Kentucky. It isn't like the Big 10 and the Pac 10 were great conferences either.

 

[BBCatsExile]

Originally posted by mj2k10:

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:

Originally posted by mj2k10:

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:





Um, nope, Duke did not deserve a #1 seed, that's what it's based on.

But Arizona did? You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that Duke didn't deserve a 1 seed because of bad losses, then say that a team with more bad losses deserved a 1. And you can't just ignore that Duke had road wins against 2 of the teams we're talking about.

Actually, you can do all of that, but you can't try to sell that it's based on facts and logic. Because it's not.

Arizona deserved a #1 seed based on many things. 1 OOC loss (played true road games too), undefeated at home, won power conference going away, won conference tournament, look at KenPom and all other metrics, passes the eye test. What are they, 31-3 right now? And the three losses against bums, yes, but by a combined 8 points or something like that? In the top 10 all year. They are in the west and should have been rewarded as the #1 there.

That = #1 seed IMO

Unfair to put the 3 top teams in the nation on one side of the bracket, where Duke's real competition is Gonzaga who they matchup well with. They were protected in this seeding through and through, and deserved a #2 seed, would have received a #2 seed if their name wasn't Duke. Virginia got shafted. Wisconsin got shafted, having to play an Elite 8 game out in Los Angeles, CA.







This post was edited on 3/25 1:47 PM by BBCatsExile

So you're saying that Arizona's loss at UNLV (1 of the 2 OOC road games they played, the other being UTEP), was somehow better than Duke's win at Wisconsin?

Okey-doke.

And I still can't figure out how Wisconsin is supposed to be superior to Duke when Duke beat them rather easily. Is everyone supposed to pretend that didn't happen? If Virginia and Wisconsin got shafted, it happened in large part because they both lost home games to Duke. If you don't want to get shafted, don't lose those games, or win enough to overcome the loss. All Virginia probably had to do was make the ACC final. Or not lose to UL (another team that Duke had a road win against). Do either of those things, and there's little chance that Duke gets the 1 seed over them.

Not saying that, just that you have to look at the big picture beyond a particular game or two. Look at the context and Duke should have been a #2 seed, Ariz #1 seed, Wisconsin #1 seed in Duke's place.

Also, wasn't Wisconsin missing one of their best players that game? Can't recall

Anyway, looking big picture, entire season, consistency, who was dominating towards the end of the season, who did what they were supposed to do especially at the end, etc. On Selection Sunday, Kentucky, Arizona, Wisconsin were (and still are) the 3 best teams in that order.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

Originally posted by TUL:
In the sweet 16, Duke has to face a team with a higher rating on KenPom than anyone Kentucky has left in their region, and ANY team left in the East region.

And Gonzaga is a MUCH stronger 2 than Kentucky had. I mean, Kansas may have been the worst 2 seed in the last decade. Has there EVER been a 2 seed that lost by 40 to the 1 seed in their bracket?

So yeah... I know people tend not to credit teams who are not traditional "names" in basketball, and I know you guys hate Duke, but let's not get too crazy.



Oh, and because people get all upset over 2010...in the 2010 tournament Duke faced 5 of the top 20 teams in the country per Kenpom in their run to the title. 5 of the top 20. By the time Kenpom figured in the tournament, Duke faced 3 of the top 10. That is lunacy, given how seeding is supposed to work, especially when you consider two of those happened on effectively home courts for those teams. The last four teams Duke faced averaged over 30 wins for the season. Yes, Kentucky lost so we didn't get to play, but we beat the team that beat you, so they can't have been that bad.

But yet somehow their is Notre Dame as our 3 who has beaten Duke twice if I'm not mistaken and won the ACC tourney.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

Originally posted by TUL:

Originally posted by HeismanWildcat85:
Having a run of Robert Morris, San Diego State, Utah, and Gonzaga is not exactly tough. Gonzaga has beaten NOBODY all season just like Villanova beat nobody. Gonzaga is Gonzaga and that hasn't changed. That is by far easier than having to play the ACC champions in the elite 8.

Again... this feels like personal bias. Just look at Kenpom, which is purely stats based:

SDSU is 27th overall on Kenpom.
Utah is 8th.
Gonzaga is 7th.

That's pretty respectable. Notre Dame is ranked BELOW both of Utah and Gonzaga on Kenpom, and has lost to Syracuse, Pitt, and Providence this year, none of which are particularly elite teams, along with a 30 point loss to Duke and a loss to Virginia, who already got dumped from the tournament.

Add in the fact that Gonzaga has been a top 5 team all year, Utah has hovered in the mid-to-high teens all year... yes, they might not be "name" teams but they are good basketball teams.

picking and choosing are we?? Like I stated earlier ND has beaten Duke twice and won the ACC tourney. I think they are 31-5 on the year and your making them out to be a bunch of nobodies.

 

[UKYcat1865]

Originally posted by Blue63Madison:

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Why are we stopping at path to the final four, who will have the easiest game once at the final four?

Because we knew the teams in each region on Selection Sunday. We don't know the Final Four teams yet?

So your statement that UK got the easiest path is fine, but extend it out one more round for Duke and that's not fine.

Sure, ok.

 

[UKYcat1865]

Originally posted by Hoskins91:

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Well it's those talking head's job to know a little about what they are talking about, and they have their real names and jobs out there for everyone to know who is saying that, rather than some random anonymous internet posters cherry picking stats to use. And with those callers, many of them longstanding, repeat callers over the years, at least you can listen to them speak to gauge their level of coherence. And again, those professionals and callers aren't UK fans with an axe to grind that some in this thread are suggesting.

People in the media are not held accountable for their opinions. Random callers on the radio are definitely not held accountable for what they say.

Neither are anonymous internet posters. Everyone has an opinion, and many people other than UK fans have the opinion that Duke got an easy path. Not sure why that twists people here's panties in a bunch. It's not a UK fan only conspiracy.

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

I posted in several threads before brackets were announced that UK, Wisconsin, Zona and KU would all be on the same side of the bracket and that Duke, UVA, Nova, and Gonzaga would be on the other. This was clearly the intent all along regardless of how Duke's individual bracket was to be structured.

Duke matches up better with every top seed on their side than any of the top seeds on the other side. It was no accident.
But who cares ultimately. You have to beat teams no matter their strength.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Duke got a very favorable draw. Not just in terms of opposition, but in terms of matchups.

Louisville got the best possible draw in the entire tournament. Almost surely would've been out the first weekend otherwise. Now maybe making the final four.

We got a decent draw. But not one indicative of the #1 overall seed imo.

Arizona/Wisconsin got the worst draw.

 

[BBCatsExile]

Originally posted by no_neutrality:

I posted in several threads before brackets were announced that UK, Wisconsin, Zona and KU would all be on the same side of the bracket and that Duke, UVA, Nova, and Gonzaga would be on the other. This was clearly the intent all along regardless of how Duke's individual bracket was to be structured.

Duke matches up better with every top seed on their side than any of the top seeds on the other side. It was no accident.
But who cares ultimately. You have to beat teams no matter their strength.

The committee was trying to manufacture a classic game of Kentucky vs. Duke final. It won't happen though. Duke wouldn't stand a chance anyway. Still a good tourney, but next year, hope they go off of merit, not story

 

[marshalfan]

It really doesn't matter who they pair Duke with, the narrative by some on this board is they got the best seed. I will say when the brackets came out I was in the camp that DUke got the easiest bracket, The way the tourney has turned out the thus far I am not so sure anymore. I think Gonzaga is better than I had previously thought.

This post was edited on 3/25 5:35 PM by marshalfan

 

[Big_Blue79]

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Well it's those talking head's job to know a little about what they are talking about, and they have their real names and jobs out there for everyone to know who is saying that, rather than some random anonymous internet posters cherry picking stats to use. And with those callers, many of them longstanding, repeat callers over the years, at least you can listen to them speak to gauge their level of coherence. And again, those professionals and callers aren't UK fans with an axe to grind that some in this thread are suggesting.

This isn't cherry picking. Those are the entire databases, created and maintained by people smarter on this stuff than you, me, talking heads, or sports radio callers, objectively presented without comment.

How about instead of relying on professional entertainers (talking heads), AND (I can't believe I'm even bothering to address this) CALLERS!!!!!, you listen to people who put their money on the line and succeed. Look to oddsmakers. Look to betters (not schills or touts, but "wiseguys" as they're commonly known). When talking heads are wrong, nothing lost. Seriously, is there a database where you can track a talking head's record? Or would you even care if the person is entertaining? When callers are wrong, nothing lost unless you have a spreadsheet with Joe from Iowa's record. When books and gamblers are wrong, lots of money is lost. Who do you trust? Who objectively presents accurate predictions based on data?

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Originally posted by marshalfan:
It really doesn't matter who they pair Duke with, the narrative by some on this board is they got the best seed. I will say when the brackets came out I was in the camp that DUke got the easiest bracket, The way the tourney has turned out the thus far I am not so sure anymore. I think Gonzaga is better than I had previously thought.

This post was edited on 3/25 5:35 PM by marshalfan

I think Gonzaga is better than I thought too, but I don't think they have the athletes to beat Duke. They do have some big boys, so they might give Okafor a bit of a problem, but I don't see them sticking on Duke's shooters. Would love to be proven wrong though. My big thing about Duke's draw is that very few true contenders are on their side. On our side are UK, Wisconsin, Arizona, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Wichita State, Kansas. Duke got the teams that are high in the KenPom ratings, but nobody really thinks Utah, SDSU or even Villanova were for real. And Virginia is basically still without Anderson, as he is not even a shadow of the player he was. I now think MSU is Duke's biggest obstacle.

This post was edited on 3/25 5:57 PM by SilentsAreGolden

 

[Big_Blue79]

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:

Originally posted by Hoskins91:

Originally posted by UKYcat1865:
Well it's those talking head's job to know a little about what they are talking about, and they have their real names and jobs out there for everyone to know who is saying that, rather than some random anonymous internet posters cherry picking stats to use. And with those callers, many of them longstanding, repeat callers over the years, at least you can listen to them speak to gauge their level of coherence. And again, those professionals and callers aren't UK fans with an axe to grind that some in this thread are suggesting.

People in the media are not held accountable for their opinions. Random callers on the radio are definitely not held accountable for what they say.

Neither are anonymous internet posters. Everyone has an opinion, and many people other than UK fans have the opinion that Duke got an easy path. Not sure why that twists people here's panties in a bunch. It's not a UK fan only conspiracy.

People that bet (both house and professional gamblers) are held accountable with money. Check out their power ratings, then get back. So while I'm not held accountable, I'll rely on objective people who are.

 

[UKYcat1865]

I'm just telling you that people other than UK fans think Duke got an easy bracket. I don't give a crap what their sources are for forming that opinion. Not sure why you can't handle that.

 

[Big_Blue79]

People believe a lot of stuff that's not true. Doesn't make it true, but I agree that others feel Duke got an easy bracket. They're wrong, but they believe it.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

Put UK in Dukes 1 seed spot and all you guys proclaiming how tough Duke has it would be proclaiming it is the easiest bracket for a 1 seed in 20 years.

 

[UKYcat1865]

Listening/watching to DVRed today's Finebaum now. Caller(was a UK fan though so we have to discredit her right?) just asked why Duke got a #1 at all. Paul said because of 4 letters, they are named Duke.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Originally posted by Big_Blue79:

Originally posted by wcc31:
Stop the whining. Utah is a Top 10 KenPom team and Gonzaga is legit- better than many of the people here give them credit for. Both are tough games.

Once again I ask- what is it about Duke that turns normally intelligent UK fans into whiny, obsessive, paranoid Louisville fans?

This.

Utah is 3-7 against the field. If that's Top 10 quality......

 

[brdmn22]

Originally posted by BlueVoodoo:

Originally posted by brdmn22:
Umm, UK has the possibility of playing one "legit" team as well, and that team is a lower seed than Duke might potentially face. Honestly, the perk of being a one seed is that you don't have to face a top 12 team until the elite eight. Duke has so far played the exact same seed as UK - 16, 8, and 5, with the potential to play a 2 seed, where UK only has the potential to play a 3 seed. Quit acting like Duke doesn't play anyone. The ACC was light years better than the SEC this year. It really does come off as whiny bitching.

Who asked you? Go back to your bird sewer.

Haha, sure thing, douche.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

Brdmn .... UK has already beaten 2 of the upper echelons of the ACC what makes you think it wouldn't be any different of an outcome if UK was in the ACC this year?
Also I would like to Add that practically most teams we have heard that could beat UK with their style and could be seeded with us is in our bracket. WV with their D would hear us, Cincy with their tough and rough style can beat us, Manhatten can match up with UK and give us problems, Notte Dame with their offensive firepower can beat UK, KU looking for revenge and playing well while winning the mighty powerhouse Big. 12 will beat us if we played again.
A lot of basketball is about matchups and the teams they put in our bracket are the teams we have been hearing how they could give us that loss. Huggy bear just gives Cal all kinds of problems with his style and hS major success against him. Etc etc etc.
Your a blind fool if you can't see what the committee does. Duke struggles big time against athletic teams because if their style but yet you don't see their bracket stacked with those teams. Also we just may play Notre Dame in their back yard to make a FF.

 

[26MichaelUK]

@ yabbadabbadoo, who for Duke would guard Wiltjer? Uh Winslow would shut him down easily. That dude is a beast on defense. His length, strength, and quickness will easily overwhelm Wiltjer. Wait and see if they play if that does not happen? Gonzaga would be completely overmatched against Duke.

 

[Gary4UK]

Marshmallow bracket.....

 

[brdmn22]

Originally posted by *Bleedingblue*:
Brdmn .... UK has already beaten 2 of the upper echelons of the ACC what makes you think it wouldn't be any different of an outcome if UK was in the ACC this year?
Also I would like to Add that practically most teams we have heard that could beat UK with their style and could be seeded with us is in our bracket. WV with their D would hear us, Cincy with their tough and rough style can beat us, Manhatten can match up with UK and give us problems, Notte Dame with their offensive firepower can beat UK, KU looking for revenge and playing well while winning the mighty powerhouse Big. 12 will beat us if we played again.
A lot of basketball is about matchups and the teams they put in our bracket are the teams we have been hearing how they could give us that loss. Huggy bear just gives Cal all kinds of problems with his style and hS major success against him. Etc etc etc.
Your a blind fool if you can't see what the committee does. Duke struggles big time against athletic teams because if their style but yet you don't see their bracket stacked with those teams. Also we just may play Notre Dame in their back yard to make a FF.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying because I never said UK would struggle in the ACC. I simply said that Duke has played a very tough schedule this year and UK fans can't complain about Duke not playing anyone.

I'm sorry, but you sound like a conspiracy theorist with your post. Almost every UK fan I know thought we had an easy bracket, and most analysts picked UK to make the FF, so they must not have thought our bracket was that tough. Do you really think anyone thought Manhattan or Cincinnati could beat UK? UK gets the most attention, so you're obviously going to hear a lot of noise from all over the place about every opponent they're playing - they are trying to do something for the first time in almost 40 years. Not only that, but you're a UK fan, so you pay attention to everything that's out there. I was listening to Miles Simon talk about how SDSU was going to give Duke fits with their defense and toughness.

How does Duke's bracket not have any athletic teams? SDSU, St. John's, G'town, SMU, UCLA, Utah, Iowa St., and probably UAB could all be considered athletic teams. Their second round game was guaranteed to be against an athletic team. Also, how does Duke struggle with athletic teams this year? Their team is pretty athletic, and their losses this year are to NC State (I'd say they're athletic), Miami (I don't consider them overly athletic), and Notre Dame (again, not a super athletic team).

Finally, how is Cleveland South Bend's back yard? It's roughly 260 miles and a 4 hour drive from South Bend to Cleveland. It's roughly 330 miles and a 5 hour drive from Lexington to Cleveland. Not to mention UK fans knew UK would be in the Midwest so they've been buying tickets for some time. Sure, UK has to travel a bit longer, but not really that much at all.

 

[UKYcat1865]

Kentucky's 8 seed beat Duke's 8 seed by 9 points this season. Kentucky's 3 seed beat #1 seed Duke 2 out of 3 times.