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Does the 'Brotherhood' hurt us?

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Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
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Is it that the same thing we love in The Brotherhood, the very thing that is sometimes hurting us? Would a Wendell Moore even be in question about returning if he played somewhere else? He has improved a good deal from his freshman season, true, but he is just a solid college player. If Keels played almost anywhere else, would he be a oad?

I've also heard that a kid in high school that's a 4 star will get a little bump up once Duke shows interest. Not saying that's true.
 
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KDSTONE

All-Conference
Oct 15, 2004
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Mac9192 said:
Is it that the same thing we love in The Brotherhood, the very thing that is sometimes hurting us? Would a Wendell Moore even be in question about returning if he played somewhere else? He has improved a good deal from his freshman season, true, but he is just a solid college player. If Keels played almost anywhere else, would he be a oad?

I've also heard that a kid in high school that's a 4 star will get a little bump up once Duke shows interest. Not saying that's true.
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I don’t doubt it about the stars. In fb once Alabama or Georgia start sniffing around stars are added all the time. In a system that made sense only Paulo from this group would leave early esp with nil when they can make some coin on top of receiving a world class education that most people around the world would look at as winning the damn lottery
 
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pisgah101

pisgah101

Heisman
Dec 26, 2005
15,646
13,543
113
Good post. I think it does and it’s a cycle.. if we were uNC just likr KD said paolo would be the only one leaving
 
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sheyduke

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Apr 13, 2010
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You live with what you get. You either go after top talent and hope players return from the previous year. Some players simply don’t want to return .
 
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DBM0828

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Jun 6, 2012
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Mac9192 said:
Is it that the same thing we love in The Brotherhood, the very thing that is sometimes hurting us? Would a Wendell Moore even be in question about returning if he played somewhere else? He has improved a good deal from his freshman season, true, but he is just a solid college player. If Keels played almost anywhere else, would he be a oad?

I've also heard that a kid in high school that's a 4 star will get a little bump up once Duke shows interest. Not saying that's true.
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I think you are spot on. I think that some players do come in with the idea of 100% OAD, especially if they are rated 5 stars in HS. And the Duke commitment in this OAD Era does make them go Pro, READY OR NOT IMO. Just look at the ones from the past years who HAVE left and been very low draft picks/not drafted at all. (DUVAL #1 PG in his class, DJ 5 star undrafted)... I know Stanley, Trent Jr, Carey, Tre Jones were all drafted, but coming back and getting better imo would have set them up for better early success. TRENT has performed VERY WELL, and got rewarded with a nice contract. The other 3 I've names won't see good contracts imo.
 
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sheyduke

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DBM0828 said:
I think you are spot on. I think that some players do come in with the idea of 100% OAD, especially if they are rated 5 stars in HS. And the Duke commitment in this OAD Era does make them go Pro, READY OR NOT IMO. Just look at the ones from the past years who HAVE left and been very low draft picks/not drafted at all. (DUVAL #1 PG in his class, DJ 5 star undrafted)... I know Stanley, Trent Jr, Carey, Tre Jones were all drafted, but coming back and getting better imo would have set them up for better early success. TRENT has performed VERY WELL, and got rewarded with a nice contract. The other 3 I've names won't see good contracts imo.
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I agree except with tre he got a good contract for where he was drafted but he wasn’t going to be more then a backup in the league .
 
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sheyduke

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christophero said:
I just hate hearing that guys have to go and then they go undrafted or dont make teams. What is Stanley doing these days?
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Plays for the 76’s . He spends his time between the team and the gleague . He also played for Indiana prior to them pulling his roster spot .
 
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Friction.

Junior
Jan 23, 2008
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I love the brotherhood and how we do it and I don’t think it hurts us.

getting around 30 wins in a season translates to success for me…whether it’s with OAD or grad transfers. Means we were consistent all year and beat all different types of teams. It means we had a chance - chance in a “OAD” tournament format. There’s just too much parity in a string of games. Don’t get me wrong, we should expect to hit lightning at some point and get a chip every few years or whatever. nobody will string together several titles until we go to a best of 5 or 7 format (never happen).

some guys go OAD unexpectedly…

the guys who we land are the same ones these other schools are trying to beat us out for.

And finally, some recruiting classes are just better than others. Some have transcendent type talent (Zion, AD) and others just have a bunch of athletes in the top 25 (like 2022).

is what it is…I guess my viewpoint is we would probably see the same amount of titles whether we do OAD or a bunch of 4 year guys over a 20 year period….

/end rant
 
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christophero

Heisman
May 2, 2017
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Getting to final four helped. If we went out early this year I would say that the model was broken and we were trending in the wrong direction. But we broke thru to the final four, which I thought was a good accomplishment for the team.. I don't see a Banchero on next years team. This team was physically mature. I think we will struggle next year unless Keels or Moore returns and we get a few stud transfers. The Brotherhood thing does nothing for me but it seems to make the one and dones feel like part of the program, even if only for 9 months.
 
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bleediteveryday30

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Jan 24, 2013
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DBM0828 said:
I think you are spot on. I think that some players do come in with the idea of 100% OAD, especially if they are rated 5 stars in HS. And the Duke commitment in this OAD Era does make them go Pro, READY OR NOT IMO. Just look at the ones from the past years who HAVE left and been very low draft picks/not drafted at all. (DUVAL #1 PG in his class, DJ 5 star undrafted)... I know Stanley, Trent Jr, Carey, Tre Jones were all drafted, but coming back and getting better imo would have set them up for better early success. TRENT has performed VERY WELL, and got rewarded with a nice contract. The other 3 I've names won't see good contracts imo.
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Tre is doing great for the Spurs. So I will push back on listing him.
 
M

Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,551
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christophero said:
Getting to final four helped. If we went out early this year I would say that the model was broken and we were trending in the wrong direction. But we broke thru to the final four, which I thought was a good accomplishment for the team.. I don't see a Banchero on next years team. This team was physically mature. I think we will struggle next year unless Keels or Moore returns and we get a few stud transfers. The Brotherhood thing does nothing for me but it seems to make the one and dones feel like part of the program, even if only for 9 months.
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Had we lost to anyone but who we did, yes it would be considered an accomplishment.
Let’s also not forget that we had 2 sophomores, and a junior as starters. Plus a grad transfer as a player in the rotation. All major contributors.
 
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lyonhawk

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Sep 8, 2003
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People talking about our lack of success with one and dones seem to think we were just hanging banners and going to FFs every year before that. From 98-06, we brought in similar amounts of talent that stayed 3 and 4 years. That stretch managed 3 FFs and 1 title. Along with several sweet 16 exits. OADs have the same number of titles, one less FF, and the same number of Elite 8s as that ridiculous run from Brand to JJ.
 
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Duke1783

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lyonhawk said:
People talking about our lack of success with one and dones seem to think we were just hanging banners and going to FFs every year before that. From 98-06, we brought in similar amounts of talent that stayed 3 and 4 years. That stretch managed 3 FFs and 1 title. Along with several sweet 16 exits. OADs have the same number of titles, one less FF, and the same number of Elite 8s as that ridiculous run from Brand to JJ.
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Literally no one said we were “just hanging banners” plus idk why 98-06 was your time period but in 2010 we won a title with upperclassmen and in 2015 we had a senior and Junior starting
 
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christophero

Heisman
May 2, 2017
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It's also personal preference. The 06 to 10 period was more satisfying to me because those guys struggled, came back and won a title. Our one and dones struggle, leave and then we watch the same thing the next year. We did have a good year this year, but I can hardly remember the names of some of our fringe guys who left early. UCLA has kept a team together and made a final four. So has Nova and Gonzaga. So it's not the only way is all some of us are saying. Keels returning would be a sign that NIL could keep some of our borderline guys a second year.
 
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Mac9192

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Jan 25, 2017
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I think some are missing the point here. The one and done isn't the problem. Guys like Banchero, Zion, RJ, Tatum... were great, and are ready for the next level. It's the fringe kids leaving after a year.

I think the Brotherhood hurts us almost as much as it helps us.
 
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KDSTONE

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christophero said:
The fringe guys leaving early has killed us. They all think they are one and done.
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It’s become a status symbol of sorts. If you’re good enough to go to Duke you’re good enough to be OAD. If you’re not you don’t want to be seen as the “bust” of the class if everyone else leaves. The one left behind may also not want to be there when the next year’s superstars arrive either
 
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Ioliva

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Jul 30, 2009
41,395
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I cant believe this is even a question. Of course it does not hurt us. If you think it hurts us, you are confused about what " the brotherhood" actually is.

The brotherhood is a support system created by the duke basketball program. It's meant to connect player around the nation who have been through the program and create a family bond. Thats why recruits love it as a pitch, its something cool to be a part of and yes it does have some NBA pull but thats not the whole program.

What kills us is player development and giving everything to #1 prospects with basically guaranteed 30+ mpg.

Case in point, look at the case of joey baker. Dude messes up almost as much as anyone on the team but gets put in the dog house. guys like banch and roach struggle, but never see that dog house and what happened? they developed and improved throughout the year. I'm not saying baker should play 30 mpg, but we tend to give up on him ALL the time. It would've been nice to have a 40% 3 point shooter out there as our guys were chucking bombs against unc. Look at Theo John. Dude came in as a grad transfer with only 2 big men with actual talent to play ( looking at you bates jones) and he averaged 11 minutes a game... There were a lot of games I thought he should've played more.

Look at what happened to last years class. Why did they all leave? because they knew it was going to be really tough to see minutes on the court with the studs we had coming in. Why would anyone stay at duke with the way we play our bench? How many guys have we really developed over the past few years? and the guys that do develop... roach, moore, jefferson... all have three things in common. They developed, stayed more than one year and oh yeah... played consistently. It's not that hard to see why it isn't attractive to stay at duke depending on who we bring.


look at the posts on the board. how many times, throughout the years, have you read " so and so is going to have to think about leaving because we have the top rated sf coming in and he's going to eat up minutes"... shoot we have a joke of a thread arguing that keels can't come back and improve his draft stock. We're so used to seeing players who stay only one year, that we forget that it's possible for players to improve their games. How many posters on here said that wendell moore would never sniff the nba because his game sucked. He's now flirting with a 1st round pick. That's what I'm hoping changes in the Scheyer era. The Bancheros of the world don't have to play the entire game to win. I'm hoping Duke starts to develop as a team again and mix in young stars with true experienced veterans.
 
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Duke1783

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With the UNC players deciding to return it for me thinking, how many Duke players will declare for the draft by Monday?
 
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Liftee

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Mar 6, 2011
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I have heard lots of theories of why Cheater players stay for years and Duke guys leave earlier than they should. It may be they come to Duke sold on the idea of being ready to go pro after one year while the Cheater guys get there and are bombarded with arguments about why they are better off staying. I don't know that Scheyer will be able to change that attitude any time soon.

Getting back to the subject, I am so proud when NBA Duke guys, even OADs, come on national TV and say they are part of the Brotherhood. It means their short time at Duke meant something important to them. No other school has that lasting effect on their guys. I hope it continues that way.
 
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