Does LeBron make his teammates better?

[Cat in ga]

In what ways did MJ make his teammates better and LeBron doesn’t?

I was thinking the same thing. It wasn't from assist or rebounding. Jordan had a lot more to work with teammates wise.

 

[kevcat]

No, he doesn’t make his teammates better. Lebron is all about Lebron. He knows everything about everything. He also is extremely disloyal and will blame everyone but himself anytime something doesn’t go his way. He has benefited immensely from the fact that the East is full of truly awful teams.

 

[JamesLee]

I do have a confession. I grew up in the Bluegrass state and “adopted” the Knicks because of Walt Frazier, Willis Reed, and Earl Monroe. Kentucky will always be #1 but New York is still second in my heart

I HATE Michael Jordan!!

Born in Yonkers, I'm a Knicks fan too when it comes to the pro game. But you are wrong about Jordan and his teammates. Excellent example of fandom overpowering facts. We're all guilty of it at times.

 

[mustnotsleepnow]

I think it's an interesting debate. The common perception is that LBJ has 'raised' and 'carried' his teammates to at least a few of the Finals he's been in and, to a certain extent, that's absolutely true. But, take LBJ off the Cavs this year (especially since they probably wouldn't have traded Kyrie if LBJ weren't on the team - Kyrie didn't want to share the spotlight and Isaiah Thomas was a ball-dominant misfit from the start with LBJ) and the Cavs team quite possibly makes the playoffs this year, albeit a 7- or 8-seed.

Let me get this straight...You think a starting lineup of George Hill, J.R. Smith, Rodney Hood/Jeff Green, Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson would be a playoff team?

Whoooooo boooyyyyyy....That's a reach.

 

[justanotherguy505]

I don't follow the NBA except in the playoffs. It appears to me Lebron makes his teammates nervous, not better. If they screw up, he's all over them.

Lebron is certainly a great player though.

At least he doesn't punch them in the face...or at least we don't think so, anyway.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

It's easy to assemble complimentary players around Lebron if you have a competent GM.

A rim protector at center, stretch 4 with shooters at the 1 and 2 would be ideal. Instead Cleveland just has a bunch of dudes who play basketball instead of having pieces to a puzzle. That's why the Bulls were so good, every player had a specific role that they played in the triangle and weren't horrific defenders. What role does George Hill play, what does he bring you other than a bad contract? Same For JR Smith and Tristan Thompson? Theres dudes should be reserve players on a title contender, instead they're key cogs on their team.

Or don't let LeBron hand pick his teammates.

 

[CatsPaws270]

Making them better players is a tough argument...I think him making players better/worse doesn't have anything to do with his skill as player.

1. LeBron makes them better players while they are on the court with him

2. But, players get worse overall playing with LeBron because they have no role when the offense is all about him.

LeBron's offense is about when he is gonna take the shot or who he is gonna decide to pass the ball to on every play. He's the point guard and the volume scorer in his offense. Its similar to Westbrook's style...except LeBron is more efficient and talented than Russ...so it can work.

When LeBron is on the court...the offense has purpose and it works. Players wait for LeBron to call the play and run it...shooter camp out for three and everyone else plays their role to compliment LeBron.

When he is off the court...there is no purpose and that's why they are awful. On a team like Golden State, Steph may be the best shooter and PG....but he doesn't care to let a Shaun Livingston or McCaw to get the shot or make the extra pass for the assist. That gives them confidence to develop and get going...where they don't need to rely on their stars. Similar in San Antonio over the year where Duncan was their best player...but he allowed Ginobili and Parker to develop...and then Leonard and Green as they came up.

On the Cavs/Heat through the years...you've never seen a younger player come into the league and develop into a nice contributor under LeBron. LeBron doesn't like helping younger guys develop so he gets older guys who can shoot or defend a bit so play off of him...and then they get tired and injured and he complains about his supporting cast.

When LeBron had a Kyrie/Wade...he had a scorer that did not need LeBron to feed them every trip...they could drop 20-30 on their own while Bron could do his own thing. Kyrie saw that he wasn't developing to his full potential under LeBron(also Kyrie is selfish and want the ball more) and he left.

Look at teams now like the Spurs, Warriors, and Celtics. They rely on ball movement and getting everyone involved. Players get injured and stars go to the bench and they still have guys they can count on to win games. The Cavs are about LeBron...guys like JR and Korver can be good players, but when they are just assigned to camp out and wait to hit threes and not get touches its gonna make their overall games diminish.

The Bulls being good in Jordan's absence is a plus in the GOAT argument for me. He allowed a guy like Scottie to develop...he let his teammates develop their games and get involved. When he was gone...they were still a good team (not great). They did not "crap the bed" when he left because Jordan was a LEADER that made his teammates BETTER OVERALL PLAYERS to where they developed under his watch.

LeBron's teams fall apart because he chooses to take the heavy load. He doesn't play off the ball because he's never trusted his PG's to run the show...even though it would be easier on his body and scary for defenses having him in the post and chasing him around the perimeter. Guys like Bosh and Love were great stretch 4's and got turned into spot up shooters and garbageman rebounders. He does not let young guys do their thing early on and replaces them with vets...and complains when the supporting cast stinks....then he leaves when it all falls apart in 2014 and now probably in 2018.

That's the curse of his greatness....his style demands the entire team to go through him and makes the team perform better with him on the court....but when he leaves he has sucked the team dry and there is no purpose.

 

[Iced Mayo]

Making them better players is a tough argument...I think him making players better/worse doesn't have anything to do with his skill as player.

1. LeBron makes them better players while they are on the court with him

2. But, players get worse overall playing with LeBron because they have no role when the offense is all about him.

LeBron's offense is about when he is gonna take the shot or who he is gonna decide to pass the ball to on every play. He's the point guard and the volume scorer in his offense. Its similar to Westbrook's style...except LeBron is more efficient and talented than Russ...so it can work.

When LeBron is on the court...the offense has purpose and it works. Players wait for LeBron to call the play and run it...shooter camp out for three and everyone else plays their role to compliment LeBron.

When he is off the court...there is no purpose and that's why they are awful. On a team like Golden State, Steph may be the best shooter and PG....but he doesn't care to let a Shaun Livingston or McCaw to get the shot or make the extra pass for the assist. That gives them confidence to develop and get going...where they don't need to rely on their stars. Similar in San Antonio over the year where Duncan was their best player...but he allowed Ginobili and Parker to develop...and then Leonard and Green as they came up.

On the Cavs/Heat through the years...you've never seen a younger player come into the league and develop into a nice contributor under LeBron. LeBron doesn't like helping younger guys develop so he gets older guys who can shoot or defend a bit so play off of him...and then they get tired and injured and he complains about his supporting cast.

When LeBron had a Kyrie/Wade...he had a scorer that did not need LeBron to feed them every trip...they could drop 20-30 on their own while Bron could do his own thing. Kyrie saw that he wasn't developing to his full potential under LeBron(also Kyrie is selfish and want the ball more) and he left.

Look at teams now like the Spurs, Warriors, and Celtics. They rely on ball movement and getting everyone involved. Players get injured and stars go to the bench and they still have guys they can count on to win games. The Cavs are about LeBron...guys like JR and Korver can be good players, but when they are just assigned to camp out and wait to hit threes and not get touches its gonna make their overall games diminish.

The Bulls being good in Jordan's absence is a plus in the GOAT argument for me. He allowed a guy like Scottie to develop...he let his teammates develop their games and get involved. When he was gone...they were still a good team (not great). They did not "crap the bed" when he left because Jordan was a LEADER that made his teammates BETTER OVERALL PLAYERS to where they developed under his watch.

LeBron's teams fall apart because he chooses to take the heavy load. He doesn't play off the ball because he's never trusted his PG's to run the show...even though it would be easier on his body and scary for defenses having him in the post and chasing him around the perimeter. Guys like Bosh and Love were great stretch 4's and got turned into spot up shooters and garbageman rebounders. He does not let young guys do their thing early on and replaces them with vets...and complains when the supporting cast stinks....then he leaves when it all falls apart in 2014 and now probably in 2018.

That's the curse of his greatness....his style demands the entire team to go through him and makes the team perform better with him on the court....but when he leaves he has sucked the team dry and there is no purpose.

Maybe the best post I've ever read to describe how he impacts the game and his teammates. There's no denying he's great, but his leadership and playing style don't really mesh. One of the keys to being a great leader is empowerment and being able to leave for a bit with your team/business still running efficiently.

 

[DraftCat]

Lebron is top 3 all time... but if he let his role players get in rhythm instead of forcing them to be spot up shooters I think his teams would of had more success....

All of us have played basketball how did It feel standing in the corner because mr.pickup was coming down the court jacking up 30 footers or driving it every single possession.

 

[justanotherguy505]

I was thinking the same thing. It wasn't from assist or rebounding. Jordan had a lot more to work with teammates wise.

Lebron cares about his legacy; he cares about Lebron only. Lebron likes the fact that his team is awful without him; it makes him appear more valuable. Lebron is getting exactly what he wants; people are arguing that he has less to work with and is therefore, "disadvantaged". Lebron doesn't care about titles; he cares about how titles affect his legacy/image. Lebron is the best player, most talented player to ever play the game. However, in many ways, he's that insecure, micro-managing boss that won't allow his team to grow both individually and collectively.

 

[Nubb16]

Not one other player in the league could replace LeBron and take that team to the finals.

 

[CatsPaws270]

Maybe the best post I've ever read to describe how he impacts the game and his teammates. There's no denying he's great, but his leadership and playing style don't really mesh. One of the keys to being a great leader is empowerment and being able to leave for a bit with your team/business still running efficiently.

Leave the campsite better than you found it

I always love how people use the "Look at the Heat after he left"....even though Bosh only played half the season and Wade was hurt too that season...but people act like the team just fell apart when LeBron left.

But they also don't bring up the next year after that when Bosh and Wade were healthy most of the season they were the 3 seed. Bron leaves and they get the 3 seed and go to the 2nd round of the playoffs when they were healthy (Bosh was out in the playoffs I believe)

 

[BlueBlood66_rivals34314]

Lebron cares about his legacy; he cares about Lebron only. Lebron likes the fact that his team is awful without him; it makes him appear more valuable. Lebron is getting exactly what he wants; people are arguing that he has less to work with and is therefore, "disadvantaged". Lebron doesn't care about titles; he cares about how titles affect his legacy/image. Lebron is the best player, most talented player to ever play the game. However, in many ways, he's that insecure, micro-managing boss that won't allow his team to grow both individually and collectively.

Found KD’s burner account

 

[jwheat]

Without lebron that team is absolutely terrible. Most of those guys won’t be in the nba if he didn’t make them look better. They are a farm team at best. Hell gst and their backups are better than most of Cleveland’s starterd. If he order get help, I hope he leaves Just not to the 76ers or the Lakers . He doesn’t need the larvar ball headache. Especially if they let the next ****** ball make the team. Memo is good, but. He’s not the difference in them winning a title. I would love to see lebron end up in Nola

I think most of Cleveland’s players were doing fine in the NBA before they were on that team

George Hill was a starter
Rodney Hood was a starter
JR Smith has always played starter minutes
Larry Nance has a big role in LA

Don’t act like these guys are all scubs now because they play with Lebron. It’s hard to stand and wait for the ball

 

[Big John Stud]

Or don't let LeBron hand pick his teammates.

That's part of being a competent GM.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

I think most of Cleveland’s players were doing fine in the NBA before they were on that team

George Hill was a starter
Rodney Hood was a starter
JR Smith has always played starter minutes
Larry Nance has a big role in LA

Don’t act like these guys are all scubs now because they play with Lebron. It’s hard to stand and wait for the ball

That’s great, how many titles did those guys contribute to helping their teams win? Are they good? Sure but if u replaced lbj with Durant on that team they wouldn’t change come close to theplayoffs

 

[jwheat]

That’s great, how many titles did those guys contribute to helping their teams win? Are they good? Sure but if u replaced lbj with Durant on that team they wouldn’t change come close to theplayoffs

You don’t think that team with Durant makes the playoffs in the easy east? Do you watch much NBA?

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

You don’t think that team with Durant makes the playoffs in the easy east? Do you watch much NBA?

They don’t win 50 games and make the finals.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

I think most of Cleveland’s players were doing fine in the NBA before they were on that team

George Hill was a starter
Rodney Hood was a starter
JR Smith has always played starter minutes
Larry Nance has a big role in LA

Don’t act like these guys are all scubs now because they play with Lebron. It’s hard to stand and wait for the ball

George Hill can’t stay healthy and is clearly declining.

You can’t rely on Hood to consistently contribute, which is why Utah was so willing to part with him.

J.R. Smith has been garbage all year.

The Lakers are mediocre, so being a major contributor for them isn’t an accomplishment. If you’ve watched the playoffs you’d see Nance clearly is in over his head.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

He’s genuinely capable of doing everything. During the Miami years and in the olympics he shows it. Cleveland let’s him do whatever he wants and he’s fallen back to playing like he used to. If he went to a different team you’d likely see him reign that in, at least a little.

 

[jwheat]

George Hill can’t stay healthy and is clearly declining.

You can’t rely on Hood to consistently contribute, which is why Utah was so willing to part with him.

J.R. Smith has been garbage all year.

The Lakers are mediocre, so being a major contributor for them isn’t an accomplishment. If you’ve watched the playoffs you’d see Nance clearly is in over his head.

GM Lebron should have chosen a better set of players I suppose.

 

[CatsPaws270]

That’s great, how many titles did those guys contribute to helping their teams win? Are they good? Sure but if u replaced lbj with Durant on that team they wouldn’t change come close to theplayoffs

Maybe not Finals...but probably Eastern Conference Finals.

I would imagine the supporting cast would perform better for KD because he would let other get involved in the offense and carry the load when he needed to...not the entire game.

Another thing about LeBron in the East...what other top 10 players did he have to face to reach the Finals? Kyrie was out and Giannis went out first round. The Warriors had to face Anthony Davis and James Harden on their way to the finals....LeBron had to face Victor Oladipo, Demar Derozan, and Al Horford.

Of course the clear cut best player in the league should be able to beat these teams without any elite level players. If LeBron and KD switched...KD would be the clear cut best player in the East and no one would be close.

 

[Ryan Lemonds Hair]

That's part of being an unemployed GM.

I fixed it for you.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

You don’t think that team with Durant makes the playoffs in the easy east? Do you watch much NBA?

Durant cant do nearly what lebron can you think they would of beat the Celtics with Durant? Lol no way in hell

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

GM Lebron should have chosen a better set of players I suppose.

I agree. We’re talking about him as a player though. Without him this team would be one of the worst in the league. I hesitate to say top 5 because they still have Love, but still.

 

[jwheat]

Durant cant do nearly what lebron can you think they would of beat the Celtics with Durant? Lol no way in hell

The Celtics who had two all stars out and Marcus Smart half healthy Led by a rookie and a sophomore?

 

[jwheat]

I agree. We’re talking about him as a player though. Without him this team would be one of the worst in the league. I hesitate to say top 5 because they still have Love, but still.

They would be terrible but probably still a fringe playoff team in the east. Had they kept the original roster that they started the year with maybe better

 

[Wall2Boogie]

The Celtics who had two all stars out and Marcus Smart half healthy Led by a rookie and a sophomore?

That team absolutely blows without lebron on it. There is not one single player in the nba that you could replace lebron with and they would make it to the finals. Lebron can handle the ball, create his own shot, distribute to his teammates and get them some points, he can rebound and sometimes play d. Ther is not one player in the nba that you could put on the cavs, take lebron off and get them to the finals. It won’t happen and it never will. On paper Philly had a much better team than lebron and they lost to the Celtics. Guys like Nance, hill, smith, and hood are all good role players that’s their ceiling. Kevin love is good but not great and Tristan Thompson isn’t worth the 20 mil he’s making per year. Point is lebron makes his teammates better. Look at Okc tight before Durant left. They had a squad including the best of in the game Ibaka
, Kanter, Adams and others and they only made it to the finals. No integer player could take the guys lebron has to work with and get them to the finals. I don’t care who it is. He’s the best player in the world. You aren’t going to see teams beating down the cabs door inquiring about, nance, hood, Smith, hill etc. they are role players and will always be that. Btw, as mentioned about the cabs wouldn’t win 59 games if you replaced lebron with Durant. Durant is a scorer he need a guys to distribute the back to him. He can crest his own shot but not nearly as effective as lebron can

 

[Cat in ga]

You don’t think that team with Durant makes the playoffs in the easy east? Do you watch much NBA?

Actually your correct. Playoffs yes. Finals hell no.

 

[HenryMuto]

LeBron gets these guys wide open shots all the time. He can't make them better but he sure gets them more wide open shots which most of the time they brick. Ever watch a game ? Try it sometime people.

 

[wldctky_rivals70430]

Read an interesting article the other day about this subject and it really made me think. The vast majority of players, especially the 'stars' LBJ has played with in his career, have performed worse (some MUCH worse) with him on the team than without. There are a handful of role players (Mosgov, Tristan Thompson to name two) who have played better with LBJ. But, the 'stars' such as Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, et al have all underperformed their expected production in multiple categories. LBJ defenders often point to how little help he gets but, as this article indicated, maybe some of the lack of support is due to LBJ himself.

LBJ is obviously one of the greats and in the conversation for GOAT but it does seem like his game is so ball dominant that players who were previously stars end up limiting their game/effectiveness in order to play with him. Kevin Love is a great example. Averaged about 26 ppg and 13 rpg while at MN and is now a spot-up 3 player who averages 17 ppg and about 10 rpg. Chris Bosh was pretty much the same way.

I think you can see a similar effect with Russell Westbrook. For all of his athleticism and ridiculous stats, it's obviously difficult to assemble a complimentary team around someone who dominates the ball so much. While RW piles up stats, his teammates often times look like spectators who are unsure of exactly what their role is. I can see where the same argument can be said for LBJ's teammates through the years.

In response to another poster, here's the link:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ilbag-does-lebron-james-make-teammates-better

NO

 

[ManitouDan_anon]

Cavs have packed it in .

 

[akaukswoosh]

 

[drbubba]

Wait, what? Lebron has teammates??

Changes to NBA playoffs next year:
The Western Conference finals will be renamed "The Finals".
The Eastern Conference finals will be renamed "The U R done series"
Kevin Durant will eat Lebron's Big Mac.

 

[ObjectivelyModerate]

Lebron does too much and that prevents players on his team from finding the roles they need to be more successful. Lebron is an amazing player but he still hasn't figured out what Michael had by his 5th season--you can't consistently go for triple doubles and win as much as you want. Lebron has guys all over his team that are career double-digit scorers. Thompson and Love both could and should average around 10 rebounds a game. George Hill can average 8 assists a game. There is talent but that doesn't show the way the team is set up. I blame the coach for some of this but some is on Lebron. It will be interesting to see where he goes next.

 

[WildMoon]

I want to see LeBron with Kawhi and the Spurs.

He needs better coaching and he needs to listen.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

Born in Yonkers, I'm a Knicks fan too when it comes to the pro game. But you are wrong about Jordan and his teammates. Excellent example of fandom overpowering facts. We're all guilty of it at times.

Your sig, lol

 

[Shaudylo]

I think most of Cleveland’s players were doing fine in the NBA before they were on that team

George Hill was a starter
Rodney Hood was a starter
JR Smith has always played starter minutes
Larry Nance has a big role in LA

Don’t act like these guys are all scubs now because they play with Lebron. It’s hard to stand and wait for the ball

I don’t get why folks mention Jr Smith when bringing up Lebron has talent around him . JR Smith is washed up.

Rodney Hood didn’t play until game 3 of the finals .

George Hill was a starter in Indiana and got them nowhere special .

Larry Nance was in and out of the starting lineup on a team nobody cares about .

 

[Shaudylo]

You don’t think that team with Durant makes the playoffs in the easy east? Do you watch much NBA?

Durant would get them to the playoffs i think . After that I don’t know

 

[26MichaelUK]

Lebron is top 3 all time... but if he let his role players get in rhythm instead of forcing them to be spot up shooters I think his teams would of had more success....

All of us have played basketball how did It feel standing in the corner because mr.pickup was coming down the court jacking up 30 footers or driving it every single possession.

1st, LeBron doesn't even remotely come close to jacking up bad shots every trip.
2nd, this isn't Mr. Pickup. This is the best player in the game.
3rd, if you're waiting in the corner LeBron will find you when the defense collapses.
I know what your getting at but bad analogy.