Do we overrate Jordan's supporting cast
- Thread starter gamecockcat
- Start date
When I think of those Bulls teams, it was Jordan and Pippen and a bunch of role players. Pippen is the only asterisk I might put by Jordan's name when comparing him to Lebron. I guess the question would be, "Does Lebron have a similar asterisk?" With his titles in Miami, he had Wade and Bosh- I would put Wade up there in terms of his ability, though not as good as Pippen. Lebron's title in Cleveland included Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. I would argue that Irving and Love are better than any 2 supporting cast members Jordan ever had. Pippen is better than both of those guys, but Jordan never had 2 guys of that caliber. So, all in all, I'd say it's a fair comparison.
People forget that Wade is considered all time great. He is considered top 5 SG... Chris bosh is a perennial all-star player. Then they added Ray Allen.
In terms of talent, that team should have gone 4 for 4. Clearly more loaded than bull's first 3 peat. But it also doesn't change the fact that they lost to much lesser talent in Mavs, and spurs. Barely won against spurs the first time around.
What always makes me laugh is how the old era wasn't as good and can't compare to today and Bron has it tougher and the players are better.....except when it comes to Jordan's teammates...somehow they are magically the only players from the 90's better than the NBA players today.
D-Wade will go down as a better player than Pippen. I would take D-Wade on my team before Scottie any day of the week.
Wade won a Finals MVP. Wade outplayed Shaq in the 2006 Finals. Wade outscored LeBron by almost 10 ppg in the 2011 Finals. Wade won a scoring title averaging 30 points per game.
People forget how Wade was first-team All-NBA the two seasons before LeBron came to South Beach.
Wade is averaging for his career....22 ppg, 5rpg, 5apg
Pippen averaged for his career......16 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg
And yes Scottie is an all-time great defender...but Wade did make 3 all-defensive teams in his career so its not like he was one dimensional.
My point will always be...Wade established himself as an all-time great before LeBron ever came to South Beach, what would Scottie's career be w/o MJ?
D-Wade will go down as a better player than Pippen. I would take D-Wade on my team before Scottie any day of the week.
Wade won a Finals MVP. Wade outplayed Shaq in the 2006 Finals. Wade outscored LeBron by almost 10 ppg in the 2011 Finals. Wade won a scoring title averaging 30 points per game.
People forget how Wade was first-team All-NBA the two seasons before LeBron came to South Beach.
Wade is averaging for his career....22 ppg, 5rpg, 5apg
Pippen averaged for his career......16 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg
And yes Scottie is an all-time great defender...but Wade did make 3 all-defensive teams in his career so its not like he was one dimensional.
My point will always be...Wade established himself as an all-time great before LeBron ever came to South Beach, what would Scottie's career be w/o MJ?
Nailed it. Jordan wasn't surrounded by all-time great players, but they were players that knew what their job was, and they did it. The Cavs players don't know what their job is half of the time, so it ends up a sloppy mess. But, talent wise, there's not much difference between the Cavs and the Bulls.
IMO Wade is much better than Pippen. Kyrie is better than any guard Jordan played with. Rodman definitely brought better defense than Love or Bosh, but he wasn't the better overall player. Rodman's career averages are 7.3 points and 13.1 rebounds. Bosh's are 19.2 and 8.5 and Love's are 18.3 and 11.3. The fact that Rodman excelled in his role with Jordan and Love and Bosh struggled with theirs playing with LeBron is another debate entirely.
So, if I understand you, if we ignore James strength, speed and other physical attributes so that he lacks the strength to move, he really isn’t that good.
ROFLMAO
Yeah, those Piston, Lakers, Boston teams were pretty bad and even those stacked Portland teams. And Lebron, curry, etc. have never played when you could literally put your had on a player to stop his move to the basket. No one understands what kind of a game changer that is. Lebron with his size is able to get rolling when moving to the basket. It would be like not able to jam a reciever at the line in football,which would make it impossible to guard a 4.1 like guy.
lets clear something up..never once have i mentioned Lebron James as the GOAT. Now, how many guys have played in the NBA that have had the size or very similar to Lebron James? Plenty. How many of those guys have played like James, and put up the numbers he has? How many of the guys played 9-10 NBA finals? How many of those guys won 3 titles? If bigger, faster, stronger was all there was to it, Shaq would be the GOAT. BTW, lots of guys in the league are bigger than Lebron. Plenty are stronger, and we know there are guys who are faster.
Comparing teammates:
Heat teams (2-2)
Wade = Pippen
Bosh >= Rodman
Allen > any shooter MJ had
Other Heat < Kukoc
1st 2 Cavs (1-1)
Kyrie >= Pippen (Pippen did nothing without MJ, Kyrie is succeed without LBJ)
Love >= Rodman (Rodman is a better defender and slightly better rebounder, Love is a much, much better offensive player)
Korver / JR = Jordan's Shooters
Other Cavs < Kukoc
2nd Cavs (0-2)
Anyone < Pippen
Love >= Rodman
Korver / JR = Jordan's Shooters
Other Cavs < Kukoc
I think LeBron's Heat team had an advantage over MJ's best Bulls team
Cavs with Kyrie had a slight advantage or maybe a wash with MJs Bulls teams
Cavs after Kyrie was ran off were nowhere near as good as the best Bulls teams, but were comparable to the first 3 Peat team.
Remember Kukoc and Rodman weren't there for the first 3. Those were Paxon/BJ, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright. LeBron's Heat and early Cavs teams had an advantage on them
With what can easily be argued as equal teammate, MJ was 6-0 and LBJ is 3-5
Heat teams (2-2)
Wade = Pippen
Bosh >= Rodman
Allen > any shooter MJ had
Other Heat < Kukoc
1st 2 Cavs (1-1)
Kyrie >= Pippen (Pippen did nothing without MJ, Kyrie is succeed without LBJ)
Love >= Rodman (Rodman is a better defender and slightly better rebounder, Love is a much, much better offensive player)
Korver / JR = Jordan's Shooters
Other Cavs < Kukoc
2nd Cavs (0-2)
Anyone < Pippen
Love >= Rodman
Korver / JR = Jordan's Shooters
Other Cavs < Kukoc
I think LeBron's Heat team had an advantage over MJ's best Bulls team
Cavs with Kyrie had a slight advantage or maybe a wash with MJs Bulls teams
Cavs after Kyrie was ran off were nowhere near as good as the best Bulls teams, but were comparable to the first 3 Peat team.
Remember Kukoc and Rodman weren't there for the first 3. Those were Paxon/BJ, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright. LeBron's Heat and early Cavs teams had an advantage on them
With what can easily be argued as equal teammate, MJ was 6-0 and LBJ is 3-5
Some may be bigger or faster or stronger but none are all 3.
Obviously you don't understand but comprehension is hard for some people. I said his physical abilities are a huge part of what make him great not necessarily his talents.
MJ’s supporting cast was very mediocre compared to lebrons. Lebron played with Wade, Allen, Bosh, Love and Kyrie. MJ had pippen and that was it. Pippen was a little overrated imo as well.
As is true with every great athlete, and pretty much every great player in any sport.
If Usain Bolt wasn't so fast, he wouldn't have been the greatest sprinter ever.
But he was.
Someone has an agenda.
Belittling one of the greatest teams because you dislike James?
smh
Let's talk objective facts. I was and am a hardcore Bulls fan and grew up watching those Bulls teams from getting knocked out by the Pistons to sending Karl Malone's butt home crying. Most of these takes are effing garbage.
It was pure fan voting for starters "back then," and now the fan vote is at least diluted. This is the type of rose-colored glasses that people bring to these debates.
Correct, which leads to an interesting point.
LeBron's teams were the underdogs in 8/9 Finals by SRS, and 7/9 by betting lines. He was only favored against the Mavs. Now a lot of people will say, "But Big_Blue79, the Heat were favored against the Thunder and Spurs." You're wrong about the betting lines (which are objective and the "public team" shading is in favor of LeBron's teams), and a simple but objective rating system, SRS (which is not perfect but far better than most people's crappy memory and NBA analysis), confirms this.
Meanwhile, Jordan's teams were favored by SRS in 5/6 series, and the one where the Bulls were not favored, 1993 against Phoenix, was almost dead even. If you recall, it took a last second 3 from John Paxson (why wasn't Jordan shooting lolzors?) to avoid a game 7 on the road against a team that had won 3/4 against the Bulls (including winning 2 games in Chicago). The Bulls never faced a team as good as GSW, who just finished up what is by all objective measures one of the top 3 four-year stretches in NBA history.
Ironic that your username includes the word "objectively," since this is subjective nonsense. Things like "Lebronophiles" (not clever or helpful), pointing out that Ray Allen will be a HOFer without acknowledging he was 37/38 with the Heat and a decent bench player at best, Pippen could not create his own shot (this is so wrong), and "LJ does too much" (wtf does this even mean?). Seriously, you're just name dropping a few guys without context or facts or, you know, the rest of the rosters. Might as well throw in Shaq on the Cavs, too. At least you (maybe) acknowledged that the Bulls rosters were constructed much better than the Heat or Cavs.
Literally none as good as any of the last 4 Warriors teams, or the 2014 Spurs, or the 2007 Spurs. And the 2012 Thunder and 2013 Spurs were favored over the Heat, too.
They didn't post those stats together, though. When measuring supporting casts and duos, it makes sense to compare what they did together. What do KAJ's stats from the 1970s have to do with Magic?
In any event, I only point this out because people trying to use players like Ray Allen playing with LeBron as something of a slight on LeBron. He was 37/38 and a bench player. What he did with the Sonics, Bucks, and Celtics is irrelevant to what he did with the Heat.
It was pure fan voting for starters "back then," and now the fan vote is at least diluted. This is the type of rose-colored glasses that people bring to these debates.
Correct, which leads to an interesting point.
LeBron's teams were the underdogs in 8/9 Finals by SRS, and 7/9 by betting lines. He was only favored against the Mavs. Now a lot of people will say, "But Big_Blue79, the Heat were favored against the Thunder and Spurs." You're wrong about the betting lines (which are objective and the "public team" shading is in favor of LeBron's teams), and a simple but objective rating system, SRS (which is not perfect but far better than most people's crappy memory and NBA analysis), confirms this.
Meanwhile, Jordan's teams were favored by SRS in 5/6 series, and the one where the Bulls were not favored, 1993 against Phoenix, was almost dead even. If you recall, it took a last second 3 from John Paxson (why wasn't Jordan shooting lolzors?) to avoid a game 7 on the road against a team that had won 3/4 against the Bulls (including winning 2 games in Chicago). The Bulls never faced a team as good as GSW, who just finished up what is by all objective measures one of the top 3 four-year stretches in NBA history.
Ironic that your username includes the word "objectively," since this is subjective nonsense. Things like "Lebronophiles" (not clever or helpful), pointing out that Ray Allen will be a HOFer without acknowledging he was 37/38 with the Heat and a decent bench player at best, Pippen could not create his own shot (this is so wrong), and "LJ does too much" (wtf does this even mean?). Seriously, you're just name dropping a few guys without context or facts or, you know, the rest of the rosters. Might as well throw in Shaq on the Cavs, too. At least you (maybe) acknowledged that the Bulls rosters were constructed much better than the Heat or Cavs.
Literally none as good as any of the last 4 Warriors teams, or the 2014 Spurs, or the 2007 Spurs. And the 2012 Thunder and 2013 Spurs were favored over the Heat, too.
They didn't post those stats together, though. When measuring supporting casts and duos, it makes sense to compare what they did together. What do KAJ's stats from the 1970s have to do with Magic?
In any event, I only point this out because people trying to use players like Ray Allen playing with LeBron as something of a slight on LeBron. He was 37/38 and a bench player. What he did with the Sonics, Bucks, and Celtics is irrelevant to what he did with the Heat.
Jordan was one of the best athletes in NBA history. That's just a fact. And if James was 6'6"/215 he'd likely be quicker. But why try to prove a counterfactual? It's just unknowable.
I'm cropping your post so as not to draw attention to it anymore than I have to, but what an simpleminded take.
LeBron is about to finish top 3 in assists and #1 in points all time as a wing player. He is also a better shooter than MJ was.
Quit mentioning LeBron's record in the Finals. Every opponent he's faced in Finals outside of Dallas is better than any team MJ faced in Finals
Are you seriously using Ray Allen? He was 37 and 38 in his two years with LeBron, and put up poor numbers in PER (14.7, 12.8), WS/48 (.126, .101), BPM (0.2, 0.1), and VORP (1.1, 1.0). The eye test also confirms that he was a bench player at best. FFS, dude, this is just nonsense. What a bad take. Also MJ had far more than Pippen; Rodman alone trashes your argument without even considering Kukoc or Grant (or the rest of the players on a roster that absolutely matter to team performance, which is obvious to anyone that actually understands the NBA). And Pippen is regarded by serious analysts as a top 25 all time player (and a perfect skill set fit next to Jordan). It's hard to have such a short and objectively wrong post. Congratulations.
And his talents are glaring. They are also honed to match his physical ability.
What you said was if you ignore his physical skills, he’s less. Well DOH! So is Jordan and every other player in the NBA.
But that takes comprehension.
He was third in the MVP voting in 1994 (sans Jordan) and first team All-NBA, and first team All-NBA the next year when Jordan missed the first, what, 65 games? His career per game averages are hurt by his back injury circa 1998 from which he never fully recovered. But don't take my word for it, or Scottie's peers, or All-NBA voters at the time, or guys who have done serious deep dives into all of the all-time greats and had Pippen top 25 of all-time (like Ben Taylor and Bill Simmons, off the top of my head). No, just speculate and suppose. You do you.
How to identify someone who has no idea what they're talking about re: James and Jordan debate:
1) Does the person mention Ray Allen as a mark in James' favor? If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 3.
2) You are dealing with an ignoramus. Proceed with caution.
3) Does the person attempt to downplay Pippen with no or shallow analysis? If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 4.
4) Does the person mention that James faced a GSW team having one of the top 3 four-year runs in NBA history by all objective measures? If yes proceed to 5, if no proceed to 2.
5) Does the person use the word "tough?" If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 6.
6) Congratulations, the person may have an intelligent point, but please proceed with caution.
1) Does the person mention Ray Allen as a mark in James' favor? If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 3.
2) You are dealing with an ignoramus. Proceed with caution.
3) Does the person attempt to downplay Pippen with no or shallow analysis? If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 4.
4) Does the person mention that James faced a GSW team having one of the top 3 four-year runs in NBA history by all objective measures? If yes proceed to 5, if no proceed to 2.
5) Does the person use the word "tough?" If yes proceed to 2, if no proceed to 6.
6) Congratulations, the person may have an intelligent point, but please proceed with caution.
Hand-checking was always a foul, they just put more emphasis on it circa 2004, and it's had various levels of enforcement since. But the fact that you mention that without also mentioning the rules change allowing zone defense and giving rise to modern NBA defenses, which is orders of magnitude more important, shows that you just don't know what you're talking about. FFS, the hand-check thing isn't even your best anti-Curry (or whatever contemporary) argument; it's the allowance of the moving screen.
BigBlue, you are like the Morton Downey Jr. of posters. And because you probably are too ignorant to know who that is, he was known as The Mouth, mainly because he talked a big game but had no clue what he was saying. You wrote so many inaccurate posts, I wasn't sure where to begin but here it goes:
1. Ray Allen gave Lebron his 2nd Championship. Without RA, the Heat lose in 6 to the Spurts. He was older, but so was Dennis Rodman whom the Spurs gave to the Bulls because they thought he was crazy and uncoachable.
2. Scottie Pippen is a HOF player but never averaged more than 22 PPG in the playoffs. And he couldn't create his own offense but was adroit (to help you here is link to the definition--https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adroit) at defense (amazing defender), fast break hooks, and banking shots (better than any other Bulls teammate at angles). Lebron has had a much more offensive help than Michael ever did.
3. Lebron does too much. Man, I knew you couldn't think through that. Lebron does not allow his teammates to understand their roles because he tries to do everything (scoring, rebounding, assists). Michael tried that one year and realized his team would never win as much as it could with him doing everything. His teammates knew their roles and he provided the offense, especially in critical moments(nearly every critical moment, in fact). Lebron is clutch as well but sometimes he passes when he should shoot (Game 1, he would have won it had it kept is and shot it at the buzzer, he would amazing that game).
4. The fact that Lebron wasn't favored in most of his finals says more about him than anything. Certainly, he shouldn't have been favored against GSW the last few years and not his first finals against the Spurs but those years in Miami he should have always been favored with 4 HOFers on the roster. (even if RA was older).
5. Lebron isn't the GOAT but is still a top 2 player IMO. He doesn't have the competitive killer instinct that Michael had but I always favored him over Kobe because Kobe didn't lead those early Lakers teams to championships (Shaq did).
6. I love Lebron. What an amazing talent he is. His ardent fans, however, are awful because every year there is a new excuse as to why his team lost in the Finals. I can't wait to hear the excuse next year.
I think Jordan and James are both overrated. Yeah, that’s right... I said it.
Haters gonna hate....and eyes a hatin.
Haters gonna hate....and eyes a hatin.
Jordan’s cast is definitely over valued. Look at the numbers of the ones who weren’t drafted before they played with MJ compared to after the played with MJ. MJ had a coach he respected & who used him to bring out the best in those guys and make them able hold their own when Jordan had to rest.
Lebron’s role players aren’t great but they’re not as bad as the media make them out. Lebron has hand chosen his role players for what style suits him & also hand picked his coach. When he goes out of a ball game, the rest of the team has no clue what to do because the entire offense is geared towards Lebron driving and scoring or trying to get an assist. Look at Lebrons teammates numbers before they came to Cleveland compared to after a year or two. They don’t improve. He brings guys in, uses them up, & ships them out. Love’s numbers have declined ridiculously and believe it or not they’re not too far right now from Pippen’s best years. To compete Lebron has to have another 20+ scorer and even then it’s usually not enough.
Lebron is a great player. Better athlete but not even close to the competitor Jordan was.
Lebron’s role players aren’t great but they’re not as bad as the media make them out. Lebron has hand chosen his role players for what style suits him & also hand picked his coach. When he goes out of a ball game, the rest of the team has no clue what to do because the entire offense is geared towards Lebron driving and scoring or trying to get an assist. Look at Lebrons teammates numbers before they came to Cleveland compared to after a year or two. They don’t improve. He brings guys in, uses them up, & ships them out. Love’s numbers have declined ridiculously and believe it or not they’re not too far right now from Pippen’s best years. To compete Lebron has to have another 20+ scorer and even then it’s usually not enough.
Lebron is a great player. Better athlete but not even close to the competitor Jordan was.
Jordan vs LeBron
Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…
Remind me again...who the GOAT is ?
Updated after Lebrons 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs
All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…
Remind me again...who the GOAT is ?
James. You just repeated and inflate things attributable to his team, something James never had. A similar biased list can be made for James.
Now respond with a whiney repetition of the same crap.
You're the one whining over your Boyfriend not being on Jordan's greatest of all time level, fella. No, a similar list cannot be made for James. Now..go whine to someone else.
Good for you. All I did was post facts and compared the two even after Lebron has played more games. And it was called "whining" and "biased" by you. It was neither. That list isn't even something I wrote..I just copied and pasted it here in this thread from another thread on here. But it's fact checked. I checked every bit of it. It's legit
I think Jordan and James are both overrated. Yeah, that’s right... I said it.
Haters gonna hate....and eyes a hatin.
Neither are the greatest.
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