'Democratic' Socialism

[Airport]

I think the point is the "incentive to work and succeed is gone" argument people make when talking about socialism. Or that people on government assistance are living a great life, high on the hog, on the backs of the working class.

Bernie's plans aren't really THAT different than what we have today, and there certainly isn't anything in there that would obviously be a disincentive to anybody to try to succeed. That's an argument that I just don't get.

Let's say somebody makes $50k in a 20% tax bracket, does anybody really think they won't try to get to $100k even if that's at a 30% tax bracket? One you clear $40k, the other you clear $70k ... I don't see how the incentive is gone.

We already have too many people happy to stay in the low end that those of us in the upper end have to support. The problem with socialism, businesses are going to be taxed so heavily to support all the inefficient govt programs, that they aren't going to hire and aren't going to increase pay. I run a small business and I'm now working 3 days a week here and have cut hours and benefits to the bone. Makin more money too.

 

[Airport]

You sure about that? What is this "free stuff" you're talking about and how is it fundamentally different than what we have today? How did you get to work today? I assume you drove on public roads? How did you get your education? I assume you went to public schools? Ever seen the monuments in DC? Ever needed police? Ever been to a state or national park or forest? Know anybody that is getting social security or using Medicaid?

There have been large periods of time where the top tax brackets were much higher, seems like there was still a lot of success.

Even if Bernie is elected and can somehow implement ALL of his plans, we are still going to have a capitalistic economy. Only the socialist services that we already have will be expanded a bit.

I'm not advocating his plan ... but let's at least be honest about what it is.

The highest top bracket was when it first started and around the great depression. If people like Bernie, why don't they leave and go to one of those countries he wants to emulate?

 

[WhiteTailEER]

We already have too many people happy to stay in the low end that those of us in the upper end have to support.

People aren't happy to stay in the low end ... there just aren't the opportunities for a good middle class life that there used to be.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

The highest top bracket was when it first started and around the great depression. If people like Bernie, why don't they leave and go to one of those countries he wants to emulate?

Top tax rate was 94% from 1945 to 1964, then it dropped to 77% until Reagan's second year, I think.

Did people strive to be successful during those time periods?

 

[Popeer]

People aren't happy to stay in the low end ... there just aren't the opportunities for a good middle class life that there used to be.

Which is why Trump and Bernie enjoy such broad support -- both appeal to people who feel like the current system has screwed them over. I haven't heard or read one thing from Trump regarding a policy that might help bring back some of those opportunities -- he just shouts ignorant stuff about making America great again as if it isn't still great, and blaming the decline of the [White] middle class on "everybody else" -- women, minorities, Muslims, illegals, the media, you name it.

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

The highest top bracket was when it first started and around the great depression. If people like Bernie, why don't they leave and go to one of those countries he wants to emulate?

Actually, the top bracket in 1913, when it first started, was 7%. It went to 63% following the great depression and it rose to 94% in 1944. It stayed in the 70-something % range in the 60s and 70s and is now down in the 30-some % range. The point is, the top bracket could stand to go up to pay for improvements for our country. The wealthiest cry and complain while hiding money in off shore accounts and avoiding taxes and paying a 30-something % tax while the middle class pays 15% to 18%.

 

[Airport]

Actually, the top bracket in 1913, when it first started, was 7%. It went to 63% following the great depression and it rose to 94% in 1944. It stayed in the 70-something % range in the 60s and 70s and is now down in the 30-some % range. The point is, the top bracket could stand to go up to pay for improvements for our country. The wealthiest cry and complain while hiding money in off shore accounts and avoiding taxes and paying a 30-something % tax while the middle class pays 15% to 18%.

BE my guest and write out a little extra on your return, liberals are always willing to take from others but don't want to put more in the kitty.. I'm already paying close to 45 to fed and state. The top 1% can hide their money, not the those after that. You want more money, free up the free enterprise motor by stopping all these govt regulations and stupid tax policies that encourage people to hide their money instead of investing it. By the way, the real money isn't in the top rates, there's not enough people, it's in the majority of wage earners.

 

[mule_eer]

We already have too many people happy to stay in the low end that those of us in the upper end have to support. The problem with socialism, businesses are going to be taxed so heavily to support all the inefficient govt programs, that they aren't going to hire and aren't going to increase pay. I run a small business and I'm now working 3 days a week here and have cut hours and benefits to the bone. Makin more money too.

Most of the folks on the low end work. They work jobs that pay very little, and the employers don't provide benefits. Those programs that you are complaining about are actually subsidizing a lot of those employers - the employers pay people a wage that keeps them below the poverty line, and the government pays for those folks' health care and helps pay for their food.

 

[Airport]

Most of the folks on the low end work. They work jobs that pay very little, and the employers don't provide benefits. Those programs that you are complaining about are actually subsidizing a lot of those employers - the employers pay people a wage that keeps them below the poverty line, and the government pays for those folks' health care and helps pay for their food.

Are you talking about all the people on welfare or disability/ss payments? If people want a higher wage, they need to do more than barely stay awake during school and become more useful than a door stop. Asians come here and become prosperous, why can't those that have been here for generations, do the same thing? You and I know that they have become entitled to expect something for nothing. It's a big generalization but too many people are in the wagon and too few of us are pulling it.

 

[moe]

Are you talking about all the people on welfare or disability/ss payments? If people want a higher wage, they need to do more than barely stay awake during school and become more useful than a door stop. Asians come here and become prosperous, why can't those that have been here for generations, do the same thing? You and I know that they have become entitled to expect something for nothing. It's a big generalization but too many people are in the wagon and too few of us are pulling it.

Do you truly have no idea why generational poverty exists?

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

If people want a higher wage, they need to do more than barely stay awake during school and become more useful than a door stop.

Your attitude is astounding. You do realize that not everyone is mentally gifted? Not everyone has the intelligence to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, CPA, etc. We still need folks with skilled trades.

 

[EERs 3:16]

You do realize that not everyone is mentally gifted

Irony

 

[moe]

Irony

Irony

 

[EERs 3:16]

Irony

Irony plus infinity

 

[Popeer]

You want more money, free up the free enterprise motor by stopping all these govt regulations and stupid tax policies that encourage people to hide their money instead of investing it. By the way, the real money isn't in the top rates, there's not enough people, it's in the majority of wage earners.

********. The real money is not in either of those places unless you count as part of the 1-percenters the megacorps that are reaping record profits while keeping wages low and not only hiding money offshore by moving their headquarters to tax-friendly enclaves, but also enjoying all kinds of breaks on the taxes they do pay, and sucking in subsidies with both hands. Or do you really believe it's OK for GE to pay no taxes, while railing about the "47 percent" of working people who qualify for Reagan's EIC because their jobs don't pay enough to get them above it, while their CEOs take home literally hundreds of millions in salary and benefits.

 

[Airport]

Your attitude is astounding. You do realize that not everyone is mentally gifted? Not everyone has the intelligence to become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, CPA, etc. We still need folks with skilled trades.

Well, we need ditch diggers too. Caddy shack in case you don't recognize it. Not everyone is gifted, not everyone is entitled to the same wage. Everyone is entitled to try to get better, not in socialist countries as much as here.

 

[Airport]

********. The real money is not in either of those places unless you count as part of the 1-percenters the megacorps that are reaping record profits while keeping wages low and not only hiding money offshore by moving their headquarters to tax-friendly enclaves, but also enjoying all kinds of breaks on the taxes they do pay, and sucking in subsidies with both hands. Or do you really believe it's OK for GE to pay no taxes, while railing about the "47 percent" of working people who qualify for Reagan's EIC because their jobs don't pay enough to get them above it, while their CEOs take home literally hundreds of millions in salary and benefits.

I will agree with you that our tax laws are corrupt. Money earned overseas and taxed overseas should not be taxed here when it is brought over here. Your lack of understanding of why corp keep their money overseas is part of the problem. Why should corp be leaving the US? We should be the most friendly country that business could have. When business does well, it's employees and stock holders do well. GE is using the tax law that is archaic.There should be no incentives for anything. That's welfare for corp or EIC credit either. WE should have a flat tax and the govt should live within itself like you and I do. By the way, wages are staying low because of the poor economy right now. You want higher wages, eliminate stupid regulations, end the legal employment of aliens and the emigration of them here too.

 

[mofo]

Does anyone actually think Socialism will work and thrive in America? Sure it's nice in the beginning but it always leads to ruin.

No,
but they are mostly sick
of Clintons vote....Trump will smoke them

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

Well, we need ditch diggers too. Caddy shack in case you don't recognize it. Not everyone is gifted, not everyone is entitled to the same wage. Everyone is entitled to try to get better, not in socialist countries as much as here.

I think in a democratic capitalist system we ought to oblige ourselves to care for those who cannot care for themselves. The national discuss should be centered on who can and who cannot care for themselves.

 

[Airport]

I think in a democratic capitalist system we ought to oblige ourselves to care for those who cannot care for themselves. The national discuss should be centered on who can and who cannot care for themselves.

If the whole country fails, what good does it do to talk about what could be done vs what should be done. We cannot continue down the path we are on. If we can't preserve the country for the majority the minority will certainly fair much worse in a failing country. All those immigrants in Europe have 35% unemployment, should we emulate them?

 

[Mntneer]

Again... it's pretty fracking simply. Want people to keep their money here... give them the inventive to do so.

 

[Airport]

Again... it's pretty fracking simply. Want people to keep their money here... give them the inventive to do so.

There is absolutely no reason for the US to lose any corporation to Ireland.

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

If the whole country fails, what good does it do to talk about what could be done vs what should be done. We cannot continue down the path we are on. If we can't preserve the country for the majority the minority will certainly fair much worse in a failing country. All those immigrants in Europe have 35% unemployment, should we emulate them?

At the risk of plagiarizing one of our more popular posters--We're doomed!

 

[mofo]

I think in a democratic capitalist system we ought to oblige ourselves to care for those who cannot care for themselves. The national discuss should be centered on who can and who cannot care for themselves.

Socialism (know matter how you frame it)
never worked, never will
it forces laziness or rewards laziness
is probably a better discription ...

should we now being up natl dept,
USA doesn't have these luxuries

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

Socialism (know matter how you frame it)
never worked, never will
it forces laziness or rewards laziness
is probably a better discription ...

should we now being up natl dept,
USA doesn't have these luxuries

Spoken like a genius, a real master of the English language with vast understanding of what Socialism really is.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Spoken like a genius, a real master of the English language with vast understanding of what Socialism really is.

Here's a Venn diagram that sums it up nicely:

 

[TarHeelEer]

Here's a Venn diagram that sums it up nicely:

As we keep wiping out more and more jobs and automating them, we must go to a socialistic system, but it certainly needs major improvement. We pay people to do whatever they want on their time. I don't like that. There should still be some kind of effort on the recipients' part to receive the benefits. I'm thinking along the lines of a permanent TVA sort of situation, where people are hired by government to complete tasks that better society. We're paying them $50,000 a year anyways, might as well get some out of it.

 

[mule_eer]

As we keep wiping out more and more jobs and automating them, we must go to a socialistic system, but it certainly needs major improvement. We pay people to do whatever they want on their time. I don't like that. There should still be some kind of effort on the recipients' part to receive the benefits. I'm thinking along the lines of a permanent TVA sort of situation, where people are hired by government to complete tasks that better society. We're paying them $50,000 a year anyways, might as well get some out of it.

I think you have some hyperbole in there. I'm curious who is making $50k on welfare. I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of people who get assistance have jobs. Those jobs don't pay enough to raise them above the poverty line, and the government picks up the slack.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

we keep wiping out more and more jobs and automating them

^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^

I've probably said it 100 times, but where are these "lazy good for nothing leeches" supposed to go and get a job and "pull themselves up by their bootstraps".

My dad had a long career and good retirement working at a plant with only a HS education. Those kinds of jobs don't exist anymore, even with a college degree. At least not in the quantities they did.

There are some jobs and emerging sectors of decent paying jobs, but they aren't for everybody.

I don't deny that there are "lazy good for nothing leeches" abusing the system, but I question what the percentage of those are. I'd bet that 80%-90% of the people on welfare or EBT cards or even disability would rather not be on those things.

I don't disagree at all that there should be some effort on the recipient's part to receive benefits. However, we need to do a proper CBA on that because it might ultimately cost more to implement and monitor the programs than they save.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

I think you have some hyperbole in there. I'm curious who is making $50k on welfare. I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of people who get assistance have jobs. Those jobs don't pay enough to raise them above the poverty line, and the government picks up the slack.

To summarize:
We, the tax paying public, subsidize profits for companies like Walmart because they won't pay their employees a decent wage.

But it's the minimum wage worker that's the leech.

 

[TarHeelEer]

I think you have some hyperbole in there. I'm curious who is making $50k on welfare. I'd also like to point out that the vast majority of people who get assistance have jobs. Those jobs don't pay enough to raise them above the poverty line, and the government picks up the slack.

In many states, welfare can pay better than an honest day’s work
Get a Job? Most Welfare Recipients Already Have One

My rephrase of the second one, we're now relying on fast food jobs as primary incomes, which was far from the case 20 years ago.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

In many states, welfare can pay better than an honest day’s work
Get a Job? Most Welfare Recipients Already Have One

My rephrase of the second one, we're now relying on fast food jobs as primary incomes, which was far from the case 20 years ago.

This addresses something else I've said a number of times:
In WV, the effective rate of welfare is $12+/hr, working minimum wage is about $8/hr.

But people ***** about both the number of people on welfare as well as raising the minimum wage. Something's gotta give if you want to change it.

 

[TarHeelEer]

subsidize profits for companies like Walmart because they won't pay their employees a decent wage.

I can see that differently. Wal-mart doesn't pay more because the market won't support it. They already only have 2 registers open. Make them pay more for employees and they'll drop it to one.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

I can see that differently. Wal-mart doesn't pay more because the market won't support it. They already only have 2 registers open. Make them pay more for employees and they'll drop it to one.

Meanwhile several of the Waltons are in the list of the richest in the world.

We may disagree on this, but I think it's because they've created a bit of a monopoly to the point that they CAN get away with doing that. Not because the market won't support it.

Personally, I only set foot in a Walmart as a last resort ... and that's almost never the case.

 

[mule_eer]

In many states, welfare can pay better than an honest day’s work
Get a Job? Most Welfare Recipients Already Have One

My rephrase of the second one, we're now relying on fast food jobs as primary incomes, which was far from the case 20 years ago.

Welfare attempts to cover expenses, and that's the idea behind setting a minimum wage. If welfare is more lucrative than a job, we need to address the wage issue.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Welfare attempts to cover expenses, and that's the idea behind setting a minimum wage. If welfare is more lucrative than a job, we need to address the wage issue.

I'm playing devil's advocate. Again, grocery store employees used to be 90% high school and college kids trying to make a few extra dollars after school. Just like fast food. Now it's 90% people's fulltime jobs(at just under 30 hrs per week, thanks Obama), that have shifted since manufacturing employment has declined. Just because it is big business Wal-Mart doesn't make it not a grocery store. All grocery stores have had this impact them. They are doing what they always have, but now you're expecting their market to change because others' employments have changed. That's not necessarily going to happen. Since they're the example, I will use them. The Walton's are going to get theirs no matter how much you increase their cost of business. That will mean higher prices grocery prices for us peons. So it's either us as taxpayers or us as consumers that are going to feel the pain. I don't see the difference.

Also in that defense stance, I would counter with, government policies and regulations have increased everyone's cost of living. Now they're attempting to make me pay more for my employees because of what they've done.

 

[mofo]

Spoken like a genius, a real master of the English language with vast understanding of what Socialism really is.

foolish comment....

1st Bern will not be elected, and Trump will stomp the Clintons....

Socialism is a failed state, that relies on excessive taxes which sytphles any possibities of Economic growth....

hope you all are ready to pay an ecess of +50% taxes, to feed your fellow man....everyone having the same low salary is an economy that will never work...

there is only one person that can help you, is you yourself and only you....

get off your *** and get a job...a real job...

 

[WhiteTailEER]

So it's either us as taxpayers or us as consumers that are going to feel the pain. I don't see the difference.

I do.
First, if it's us as consumers, it's a lot more efficient than it is when it's us as taxpayers.

Second, when talking about wages, people seem to ignore the other economic impacts. If people have even a little bit more than the bare minimum they need to get by, they will most likely spend it someplace. That puts more money out into the local economies and actually creates more demand for jobs.

If you were going to open a business, would you do it in Bridgeport or Welch? Bridgeport. Why? Because there are more people with more money. If you're going to open a business, it would stand to reason that you'd have to have employees.

Third, many of these businesses have gotten a bit of a "free ride" because of all of the years that the minimum wage stayed stagnant. At least a couple of times those periods were a decade in length. There was inflation during that time as well. I've seen varying numbers, but I seem to recall seeing that if minimum wage had kept up with inflation that it would be around $18/hour now.

I do appreciate your "devil's advocate" stance though, it throws in a line of reasoning that I hadn't really considered before.

 

[CAJUNEER_rivals]

Here's a Venn diagram that sums it up nicely:

What Americans know about socialism

Socialism

 

[WhiteTailEER]

What Americans know about socialism

Socialism

You'd definitely never ever see anything like that in the US with our democracy and capitalistic society.