Da Bears

Nov 20, 2002
1,082
740
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Hey Chicago Bears Fans, Your blood is about to boil reading this: I just did some research. The state of Illinois has spent over $2.5 BILLION on free benefits for illegals last year. At the same time Illinois Governor
@JBPritzker
was telling the Bears there’s “no money” for tax relief on a new stadium. Let that sink in. For $2.5 billion the state of Illinois could have PAID for a new stadium for the Chicago Bears. Instead, they spent it paying for lavish benefits for aliens, while running a $3 billion deficit and losing a franchise they've had for over 100 years. This is what Democrat priorities look like. They hate you and will destroy your state for power.
 

DividedPi

All-Conference
Nov 23, 2016
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I'd much rather the money go there 10 times over than be used to further line the pockets of billionaire NFL owners. I can think of endless things better to do than spend $2.5 billion of public funds to gift wrap a new stadium for the McCaskeys.

But just for the sake of your stupid argument, The Bears had a chance at $2.2B of public funds and said no thanks.
 
Nov 20, 2002
1,082
740
113
I'd much rather the money go there 10 times over than be used to further line the pockets of billionaire NFL owners. I can think of endless things better to do than spend $2.5 billion of public funds to gift wrap a new stadium for the McCaskeys.

But just for the sake of your stupid argument, The Bears had a chance at $2.2B of public funds and said no thanks.
Forget about football...how do you justify giving any public money to illegal aliens when that money could be used to improve the quality of life for Americans?
 

whitesixmile

Heisman
Aug 30, 2015
6,227
10,781
107
0 public money should go to illegals.
Also correct. And I know the economic effects teams bring to cities but they make so much money I hate that we have to fund it with tax dollars. Maybe in the long run it creates more tax dollars.
 

MTTiger19

All-American
Sep 10, 2008
5,912
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Also correct. And I know the economic effects teams bring to cities but they make so much money I hate that we have to fund it with tax dollars. Maybe in the long run it creates more tax dollars.
It’s not ideal but at least it serves the people that paid them in some way. We get nothing from the other.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
36,268
113
Hey Chicago Bears Fans, Your blood is about to boil reading this: I just did some research. The state of Illinois has spent over $2.5 BILLION on free benefits for illegals last year. At the same time Illinois Governor
@JBPritzker
was telling the Bears there’s “no money” for tax relief on a new stadium. Let that sink in. For $2.5 billion the state of Illinois could have PAID for a new stadium for the Chicago Bears. Instead, they spent it paying for lavish benefits for aliens, while running a $3 billion deficit and losing a franchise they've had for over 100 years. This is what Democrat priorities look like. They hate you and will destroy your state for power.
Bookmarking this for when the bears break ground in Arlington heights
 

nmerritt11

Hall of Famer
Jan 30, 2006
112,419
280,335
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ANY benefits for illegal immigrants is lavish you dolt

I think the biggest thing that has been lost is the term "illegal"

Legal migrants and people who are TRULY seeking asylum are different than their new undocumented immigrants. There is a huge difference in the 3.

Giving money to sports franchises generally helps the city generate revenue, helps local business', and helps the overall economy.
 

MTTiger19

All-American
Sep 10, 2008
5,912
9,095
113
I think the biggest thing that has been lost is the term "illegal"

Legal migrants and people who are TRULY seeking asylum are different than their new undocumented immigrants. There is a huge difference in the 3.

Giving money to sports franchises generally helps the city generate revenue, helps local business', and helps the overall economy.
It’s laughable that people think a sports franchise is a bigger resource drain than millions of uneducated, unskilled people that have no desire to assimilate and have their hand out. Go look at how many billions are being spent on taxpayer funded subsidies for illegals. Unreal. Move this if you must but this is the truth.
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
36,268
113
I think the biggest thing that has been lost is the term "illegal"

Legal migrants and people who are TRULY seeking asylum are different than their new undocumented immigrants. There is a huge difference in the 3.

Giving money to sports franchises generally helps the city generate revenue, helps local business', and helps the overall economy.
Decades of research show that public handouts to private sports stadiums do not recoup the initial investment for the public/tax payers
 
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GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
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It’s laughable that people think a sports franchise is a bigger resource drain than millions of uneducated, unskilled people that have no desire to assimilate and have their hand out. Go look at how many billions are being spent on taxpayer funded subsidies for illegals. Unreal. Move this if you must but this is the truth.
Some of the lost patriotic people you will meet are immigrants and they contribute far more to the economy than they receive. You can disagree but the latter is backed up by research. That’s all I’ll say on the matter since we’re on the main board
 

nmerritt11

Hall of Famer
Jan 30, 2006
112,419
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Decades of research show that public handouts to private sports stadiums do not recoup the initial investment for the public/tax payers

we are going down a rabbit hole here but the economic value they bring to an area generates dollars and brings money to cities or they would not do it. Far greater benefit to business' and the city but it brings development to areas, new business', and generates revenue for a city




Some of the lost patriotic people you will meet are immigrants and they contribute far more to the economy than they receive. You can disagree but the latter is backed up by research. That’s all I’ll say on the matter since we’re on the main board

see this is the thing...you use "immigrants" which is different than "illegal immigrants"

There is a difference. If you cannot see that I am sorry. Illegals are what the problem is. not the people who are here legally...the guy I work closest with in sales within my new position is a dual citizen from Canada. Zero issue with that...
 

GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
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we are going down a rabbit hole here but the economic value they bring to an area generates dollars and brings money to cities or they would not do it. Far greater benefit to business' and the city but it brings development to areas, new business', and generates revenue for a city






see this is the thing...you use "immigrants" which is different than "illegal immigrants"

There is a difference. If you cannot see that I am sorry. Illegals are what the problem is. not the people who are here legally...the guy I work closest with in sales within my new position is a dual citizen from Canada. Zero issue with that...
Sure, there is undoubtedly economic value to stadiums but the public cost in financing outweighs the benefits. Quite a bit of economic research backs this up.

From the St Louis Fed in 2001: "When studying this issue, almost all economists and development specialists (at least those who work independently and not for a chamber of commerce or similar organization) conclude that the rate of return a city or metropolitan area receives for its investment is generally below that of alternative projects. In addition, evidence suggests that cities and metro areas that have invested heavily in sports stadiums and arenas have, on average, experienced slower income growth than those that have not."

"In testimony before the U.S. Congress, economist Robert Baade said that Chicago's professional sports industry—which includes five teams—accounted for less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Chicago's 1995 personal income.3 Baade further commented that even when compared with the revenue of other industries, professional sports teams contribute small amounts to the economy. He noted, for example, that "the sales revenue of Fruit of the Loom exceed[ed] that for all of Major League Baseball (MLB), while the sales revenue of Sears [was] about thirty times larger than that of all MLB revenues.""

"Economic impact studies also tend to focus on the increased tax revenues cities expect to receive in return for their investments. The studies, however, often gloss over, or outright ignore, that these facilities usually do not bring new revenues into a city or metropolitan area."

"Very little evidence exists to suggest that sporting events are better at attracting tourism dollars to a city than other activities."

"Economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist have examined the issue in depth and argued that, as a general rule, sports facilities attract neither tourists nor new industry."

""A new sports facility had an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable rate of return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.10"

"Research has shown that subsidizing sports facilities usually does not affect a city's growth and, in some cases, may even hurt growth since funds are being diverted from alternatives with higher returns. In a 1994 study that examined economic growth over a 30-year period in 48 metropolitan areas, Robert Baade found that of the 32 metro areas that had a change in the number of sports teams, only two showed a significant relationship between the presence of a sports team and real per-capita personal income growth. These cities were Indianapolis, which saw a positive relationship, and Baltimore, which had a negative relationship.

Moreover, Baade found that of the 30 metro areas where the stadium or arena was built or refurbished in the previous 10 years, only three areas showed a significant relationship between the presence of a stadium and real per-capita personal income growth. And in all three cases—St. Louis, San Francisco/Oakland and Washington, D.C.—the relationship was negative."

From the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management:

"The peer-reviewed literature typically finds little or no evidence that the construction of new professional sports facilities results in significant increases in any type of measurable economic activity including personal income, wages, employment, tax revenues, or tourist spending."

"Research in peer-reviewed journals finds little evidence that professional sporting franchises or events generate tangible new economic benefits for their cities. It would be exceedingly rare to find a sports facility project that would justify a public subsidy that would cover most of or all of the construction cost."

On the immigration front, for the sake of fraternal charity we'll just have to agree to disagree. As a Catholic I'm going to have a much different view of immigration than a Southern evangelical (which I assume you are). If our immigration system functioned like some people thought it did then it would be the most fair system in the world. It does not.
 
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nmerritt11

Hall of Famer
Jan 30, 2006
112,419
280,335
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Sure, there is undoubtedly economic value to stadiums but the public cost in financing outweighs the benefits. Quite a bit of economic research backs this up.

From the St Louis Fed in 2001: "When studying this issue, almost all economists and development specialists (at least those who work independently and not for a chamber of commerce or similar organization) conclude that the rate of return a city or metropolitan area receives for its investment is generally below that of alternative projects. In addition, evidence suggests that cities and metro areas that have invested heavily in sports stadiums and arenas have, on average, experienced slower income growth than those that have not."

"In testimony before the U.S. Congress, economist Robert Baade said that Chicago's professional sports industry—which includes five teams—accounted for less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Chicago's 1995 personal income.3 Baade further commented that even when compared with the revenue of other industries, professional sports teams contribute small amounts to the economy. He noted, for example, that "the sales revenue of Fruit of the Loom exceed[ed] that for all of Major League Baseball (MLB), while the sales revenue of Sears [was] about thirty times larger than that of all MLB revenues.""

"Economic impact studies also tend to focus on the increased tax revenues cities expect to receive in return for their investments. The studies, however, often gloss over, or outright ignore, that these facilities usually do not bring new revenues into a city or metropolitan area."

"Very little evidence exists to suggest that sporting events are better at attracting tourism dollars to a city than other activities."

"Economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist have examined the issue in depth and argued that, as a general rule, sports facilities attract neither tourists nor new industry."

""A new sports facility had an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable rate of return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.10"

"Research has shown that subsidizing sports facilities usually does not affect a city's growth and, in some cases, may even hurt growth since funds are being diverted from alternatives with higher returns. In a 1994 study that examined economic growth over a 30-year period in 48 metropolitan areas, Robert Baade found that of the 32 metro areas that had a change in the number of sports teams, only two showed a significant relationship between the presence of a sports team and real per-capita personal income growth. These cities were Indianapolis, which saw a positive relationship, and Baltimore, which had a negative relationship.

Moreover, Baade found that of the 30 metro areas where the stadium or arena was built or refurbished in the previous 10 years, only three areas showed a significant relationship between the presence of a stadium and real per-capita personal income growth. And in all three cases—St. Louis, San Francisco/Oakland and Washington, D.C.—the relationship was negative."

From the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management:

"The peer-reviewed literature typically finds little or no evidence that the construction of new professional sports facilities results in significant increases in any type of measurable economic activity including personal income, wages, employment, tax revenues, or tourist spending."

"Research in peer-reviewed journals finds little evidence that professional sporting franchises or events generate tangible new economic benefits for their cities. It would be exceedingly rare to find a sports facility project that would justify a public subsidy that would cover most of or all of the construction cost."

On the immigration front, for the sake of fraternal charity we'll just have to agree to disagree. As a Catholic I'm going to have a much different view of immigration than a Southern evangelical (which I assume you are). If our immigration system functioned like some people thought it did then it would be the most fair system in the world. It does not.

we will drop it here but some of my best friends are Catholic and I am actually an active Catholic Godfather to my best friend's daughter and have now taken a more instrumental role in his son's life b/c of an absent Godfather so while not Catholic I understand it. Been almost 2 decades of being involved with it and being at all the things. A former business partner on a few things was also Catholic along with his twin brother...and I can go on and on, on this subject. I'm not ignorant on the subject

None of the above people mentioned think illegal immigrants are a good thing. And the twin's mom is actually an immigrant from Germany for the record. Their dad, a retired Colonel from the Army and Citadel grad from Virginia. He met his wife while stationed in Germany and they have dual citizenship. Don't just assume because I am a southerner that I do not understand the Catholic world is an assumption and you know what that does...

I, once again, do not mind immigration when done properly but this is taking the thread off topic too much so this is the last I'll post on the topic
 
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GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
36,268
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we will drop it here but some of my best friends are Catholic and I am actually an active Catholic Godfather to my best friend's daughter and have now taken a more instrumental role in his son's life b/c of an absent Godfather so while not Catholic I understand it. Been almost 2 decades of being involved with it and being at all the things. A former business partner on a few things was also Catholic along with his twin brother...and I can go on and on, on this subject. I'm not ignorant on the subject

None of the above people mentioned think illegal immigrants are a good thing. And the twin's mom is actually an immigrant from Germany for the record. Their dad, a retired Colonel from the Army and Citadel grad from Virginia. He met his wife while stationed in Germany and they have dual citizenship. Don't just assume because I am a southerner that I do not understand the Catholic world is an assumption and you know what that does...

I, once again, do not mind immigration when done properly but this is taking the thread off topic too much so this is the last I'll post on the topic
Fair enough
 

DividedPi

All-Conference
Nov 23, 2016
1,222
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113
Forget about football...how do you justify giving any public money to illegal aliens when that money could be used to improve the quality of life for Americans?
They aren't "illegals". They're legal asylum seeking immigrants.

The money is also not going to them. It went primarily to healthcare providers providing basic care. The remaining amount mostly went to providing shelter, food and other infrastructure, which again ended up paying the people doing the providing rather than those being provided for.

Ironically it probably created or sustained more jobs than a stadium would.

Before you say it, we should be providing basic healthcare, food and shelter to all Americans too. It doesn't have to be an either or.
 
Last edited:

CUFam98

Heisman
Dec 24, 2017
8,521
21,886
103
Sure, there is undoubtedly economic value to stadiums but the public cost in financing outweighs the benefits. Quite a bit of economic research backs this up.


From the St Louis Fed in 2001: "When studying this issue, almost all economists and development specialists (at least those who work independently and not for a chamber of commerce or similar organization) conclude that the rate of return a city or metropolitan area receives for its investment is generally below that of alternative projects. In addition, evidence suggests that cities and metro areas that have invested heavily in sports stadiums and arenas have, on average, experienced slower income growth than those that have not."

"In testimony before the U.S. Congress, economist Robert Baade said that Chicago's professional sports industry—which includes five teams—accounted for less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Chicago's 1995 personal income.3 Baade further commented that even when compared with the revenue of other industries, professional sports teams contribute small amounts to the economy. He noted, for example, that "the sales revenue of Fruit of the Loom exceed[ed] that for all of Major League Baseball (MLB), while the sales revenue of Sears [was] about thirty times larger than that of all MLB revenues.""

"Economic impact studies also tend to focus on the increased tax revenues cities expect to receive in return for their investments. The studies, however, often gloss over, or outright ignore, that these facilities usually do not bring new revenues into a city or metropolitan area."

"Very little evidence exists to suggest that sporting events are better at attracting tourism dollars to a city than other activities."

"Economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist have examined the issue in depth and argued that, as a general rule, sports facilities attract neither tourists nor new industry."

""A new sports facility had an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable rate of return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.10"

"Research has shown that subsidizing sports facilities usually does not affect a city's growth and, in some cases, may even hurt growth since funds are being diverted from alternatives with higher returns. In a 1994 study that examined economic growth over a 30-year period in 48 metropolitan areas, Robert Baade found that of the 32 metro areas that had a change in the number of sports teams, only two showed a significant relationship between the presence of a sports team and real per-capita personal income growth. These cities were Indianapolis, which saw a positive relationship, and Baltimore, which had a negative relationship.

Moreover, Baade found that of the 30 metro areas where the stadium or arena was built or refurbished in the previous 10 years, only three areas showed a significant relationship between the presence of a stadium and real per-capita personal income growth. And in all three cases—St. Louis, San Francisco/Oakland and Washington, D.C.—the relationship was negative."

From the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management:

"The peer-reviewed literature typically finds little or no evidence that the construction of new professional sports facilities results in significant increases in any type of measurable economic activity including personal income, wages, employment, tax revenues, or tourist spending."

"Research in peer-reviewed journals finds little evidence that professional sporting franchises or events generate tangible new economic benefits for their cities. It would be exceedingly rare to find a sports facility project that would justify a public subsidy that would cover most of or all of the construction cost."

On the immigration front, for the sake of fraternal charity we'll just have to agree to disagree. As a Catholic I'm going to have a much different view of immigration than a Southern evangelical (which I assume you are). If our immigration system functioned like some people thought it did then it would be the most fair system in the world. It does not.
I've read a lot of these studies on subsidies and tax credits (and some of the follies of "economic impact multipliers") and where they fail is that they try to apply broad economic trends to what are targeted local impacts. Sure Fruit of the Loom that has underwear and t-shirts sold in ever walmart, target and dollar tree across the country is going to have more impact than 32 major league baseball teams. Its like comparing a cast net to a single hook.

And these projects have to be in conjunction with the teams and based on local factors. You can't throw money at an arena if the fundamental problem still exists. St Louis failed because the City of St. Louis is failing. Building an event center (the dome) that only has 10 events wasn't going to reinvigorate downtown St Louis. (Maybe Busch Stadium with 81 events would). The City of Atlanta failed to take advantage of the Braves, and actively worked against them. There was 0 redvelopment in that area beyond 1 street of condos. And the City of Atlanta didn't pay a dime for the old Turner Field. So Marietta/Cobb County made the Braves an offer and worked with the Braves to develop the area. Now Truist, Comcast, TKE all have headquarters in Cobb county. Its measurable impact. The annual tax revenue is already greater than the servicing of the bonds. And there are 2 new hotels under construction that aren't even accounted for yet. Heck, Clemson is proof of targeted local impact. The State issues bonds at the state rate to build a football stadium and the economic impact of a game is so large that we don't move games to Thursdays and try to have at least 7 a year or local businesses (from Clemson to Anderson to Greenville) all rely on the events to get in the black. It probably didn't make sense for NYC to pay for a new Yankee Stadium that was in the footprint of the old one. It didn't bring anything new to the area.

Now where I will agree with you is that it needs to be LOCAL support and local control. Not state. Cobb County made the decision to spend Cobb county money to improve Cobb County. Alpharetta is looking to spend Alpharetta money to improve Alpharetta by potentially redeveloping the North Point Mall to an arena and "Battery." The State of Georgia shouldn't be using Savannah money to pay for the Braves or Falcon's stadium. The state can issue tax credits (like the film credits) that drive economic activity throughout the state. Not for local projects.
 
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GDead_Tiger

Heisman
Dec 7, 2021
14,014
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I've read a lot of these studies on subsidies and tax credits (and some of the follies of "economic impact multipliers") and where they fail is that they try to apply broad economic trends to what are targeted local impacts. Sure Fruit of the Loom that has underwear and t-shirts sold in ever walmart, target and dollar tree across the country is going to have more impact than 32 major league baseball teams. Its like comparing a cast net to a single hook.

And these projects have to be in conjunction with the teams and based on local factors. You can't throw money at an arena if the fundamental problem still exists. St Louis failed because the City of St. Louis is failing. Building an event center (the dome) that only has 10 events wasn't going to reinvigorate downtown St Louis. (Maybe Busch Stadium with 81 events would). The City of Atlanta failed to take advantage of the Braves, and actively worked against them. There was 0 redvelopment in that area beyond 1 street of condos. And the City of Atlanta didn't pay a dime for the old Turner Field. So Marietta/Cobb County made the Braves an offer and worked with the Braves to develop the area. Now Truist, Comcast, TKE all have headquarters in Cobb county. Its measurable impact. The annual tax revenue is already greater than the servicing of the bonds. And there are 2 new hotels under construction that aren't even accounted for yet. Heck, Clemson is proof of targeted local impact. The State issues bonds at the state rate to build a football stadium and the economic impact of a game is so large that we don't move games to Thursdays and try to have at least 7 a year or local businesses (from Clemson to Anderson to Greenville) all rely on the events to get in the black. It probably didn't make sense for NYC to pay for a new Yankee Stadium that was in the footprint of the old one. It didn't bring anything new to the area.

Now where I will agree with you is that it needs to be LOCAL support and local control. Not state. Cobb County made the decision to spend Cobb county money to improve Cobb County. Alpharetta is looking to spend Alpharetta money to improve Alpharetta by potentially redeveloping the North Point Mall to an arena and "Battery." The State of Georgia shouldn't be using Savannah money to pay for the Braves or Falcon's stadium. The state can issue tax credits (like the film credits) that drive economic activity throughout the state. Not for local projects.
Good points
 

tgrharley

Heisman
Jan 9, 2005
5,149
10,259
113
Some of the lost patriotic people you will meet are immigrants and they contribute far more to the economy than they receive. You can disagree but the latter is backed up by research. That’s all I’ll say on the matter since we’re on the main board
I agree
LEGAL immigrants. But that aint the topic, sport
 
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MTTiger19

All-American
Sep 10, 2008
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They aren't "illegals". They're legal asylum seeking immigrants.

The money is also not going to them. It went primarily to healthcare providers providing basic care. The remaining amount mostly went to providing shelter, food and other infrastructure, which again ended up paying the people doing the providing rather than those being provided for.

Ironically it probably created or sustained more jobs than a stadium would.

Before you say it, we should be providing basic healthcare, food and shelter to all Americans too. It doesn't have to be an either or.
You really wanna make an argument that Americans should be going bankrupt over healthcare costs but illegals get it for free. 😂. Yea screw the people that live here and pay taxes.
 
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SB_SB

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Dec 17, 2022
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Bookmarking this for when the bears break ground in Arlington heights
The Bears are going nowhere. They're not even go to AH. They will stay downtown if they're smart. Maybe if they had a winning product they'd have more bargaining power.
 
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